Is America a Great Country? Why?

[JayHawk]

What's your experience of history being taught Mazda? I majored in history through high school and college, but it wasn't until I began to do research and reading on my own that I realized my school courses were all biased toward America. America never did anything wrong. You ought to swallow your ignorance of this country's real history, and start looking a little bit deeper.

I know the real history of this country. I like it. Wait let me capitolize that for you I LIKE it. The US Navy has been involved in all but two of our conflicts, altercations, police action, peace effort, whatever you wanna call it-- we have been a part of it with the exception of two for the overseas events.

I like it so much I joined the Navy and plan on spending my life doing exactly that. So trust me sunshine, perhaps you have lost sarcasm whilst living outside of the country you love to hate but that quote you referrenced from me was extremely sarcastic. Ignorant indeed. How about full disclosure. Infact I would be willing to bet I know the inside deal on many actions in the last 18 years that you read entirely differently from the world or US press.

The Sand Creek massacre by the US military in the late 19th century(after peace treaties had been signed) was the murder in cold blood of old men, women and children of the Arapaho tribe not far from Denver. The reasoning for the massacre? The citizens of Denver didn't want the Indians so close to the town because the whites knew that since the buffalo had all been slaughtered, they Indians were more likely to steal cattle to survive because they knew the Indians were starving. Something like 500 men, women and children were killed and left to rot in the grass.

Or the Leadville miner's strike. That was put down by the US military at the request of old man Rockerfeller who had an interest in the mines. Dozens were shot down like dogs just for asking for more safety in the dark tunnels they were forced to work in. Many of the murdered miners were just trying to leave for better jobs elsewhere, but were still gunned down. Sort of brings to mind the Attica massacre by the National guard at Nelson Rockerfeller's orders. Dozens of innocent (Non striking) prisoners collected in the exercise yard of Attica prison because the real bad guys were inside the prison cell blocks with guards as hostages and had threatened to kill any of the prisoners who refused to join them.

Reckerfeller ordered the men in the yard back inside and when they were too afraid to face the insanity inside the cell blocks, he had the National guard to shoot them down. Dozens either died or were seriously wounded.

Then there was Kent State massacre. College students protesting the Viet Nam war were murdered by the National guard on then president, Richard Nixon's orders.

There's more, but if you really care, then get off you couch and start reading some history for real.

Sweetness I been off the couch forging history for longer than you've been a socialist. I will not apologize for that anymore than I will apologize for slavery or hiroshima. NOT MY GIG.

If you wanna read some real disgusting history then read up on Colombia not in history but now.

Worse than the barbarian acts of Farc, are the terrible human rights violations committed by the Colombian government. National and International Human Rights observers in Colombia such as the UN observer for human rights, the OMS observers from MAPP commission and local human rights defenders (now organized in a massive coalition of social movements called COSMOSOC), have been clearly stating that the most barbarian acts of violence in Colombia are actually perpetrated by the paramilitary groups, whose links with some of the members of Colombian army and politicians have also been clearly established. This of course, let the Colombian government in a very difficult position. Therefore it is not surprising in the least that the government take advantage from situations like the present release of Clara and Consuelo, to generate a blurred view of the actual conflict, manipulating the media for their own interest.

How do you support such a place with your American dollar? Given your staunch stand on human rights. Wait was it an isolated incident such as what you quote on the good 'ole US of A? Nope. Right around fifty years and going......

Having been ranging for over fifty years, the internal conflict in Colombia is beginning to achieve an important recognition within the international context. The latest news in relation to the liberation of Clara Rojas and Consuelo Gonzalez, kidnapped almost 6 years ago by the guerillas of Farc, and the continued captivity of Ingrid Betancourt, have drawn the attention to two main topics: The suffering and appalling conditions on which people kidnapped by this guerilla group are being kept, and the actual possibility of reaching a humanitarian exchange between Farc’s political prisoners and kidnapped victims. This juncture at the same time brings the attention to the levels of violence of the Colombian armed conflict.

The first two quotes are identified the last two are from: Indy Media

I could list the rest of the worlds travesties but I am sure if you pull your head out and come up for air you can look for yourself. Of course, evidently your blind to the human tragedy in Colombia so who could tell?

 

[JayHawk]

Thanks Soulsearcher. And this list does not even include the 50 year war against the American Indians. It only lists a couple of instances. One omitted is the famous Kit Carson excursion against the Piute tribes where a US military wagon train went from village to village distributing blankets supposedly to help the starving people through what looked to be a rough winter since all the buffalo had been killed off. It would have been a mission of mercy except the blankets were intentionally infected with Small Pox germs. Thousands died from what they called the spotted sickness.

This same technique was used against the White Mountain and other Apache tribes. Even to this day, survivors of those peoples won't eat speckled trout from their mountain streams because the speckles on the trout remind them of the spotted sickness that killed so many.

We've been real good to our own people.

Provide a referrence. The internet doesn't seem to have one readily available. I will even go buy a book. Just name it. Please exclude conspiracy theorist. Like say a Ward Churchill publication you can leave off the wish list.

 

[Kulindahr]

overthrow the govt?

why?

our govt is good

people make mistakes

the system is damn good

no need to overthrow

tweaking is fine

just fine

as in elections

etc

When an unpublished study by a major newspaper says that 1 in 5 people taking a plea bargain in court are innocent,
when most Americans don't think there are really any politicians worth voting for,
when the president can't keep 1 in 4 people approving of how he's doing his job, and Congress is worse,
when more than 1 in 100 people are in jail or prison...

you think our government is "good"?


Have you ever seen the movie "Enemy of the State"?
When it was made, 95% of what the government agents in it did was illegal.
Thanks to Bush, 90% of it is now perfectly legal.

And you think we have a good government....

 

[JayHawk]

Yeah it is legal

 

[Kulindahr]

Just a thought:

it's because I love my country that I despise its government, and the steady erosion of liberty.
It's because I love my country that I cling to the SCOTUS-acknowledged right to insurrection.
And it's because I love my country that I think all the incidents on that list SoulSearcher linked should be taught thoroughly -- as well as the infected blanket incident, which was in my dad's school books... back when school books were more honest.

 

[D8Na2R]

One thing I can say is this. I don't see people risking being drowned at sea to get to Cuba. I don't see 12 million people pouring into Mexico for jobs a better standard of living. I don't see people risking being suffocated in a transport container to get to China. I don't see people cowering in ship's holds to get to India. There must be something good going on here.

I have often wondered if so many people around the world hate us then why pray tell are they all trying to get here.

Is the USA a perfect country? No. Is it the best altenative to anywhere else? You bet.

 

[aab91030]

Speaking as an American living abroad, I think most Americans probably need to spend a significant period of time in another country before they appreciate how great the US is. One may disagree with the politics, but for sheer quality of living, I have yet to visit a country that has us beat. And as D9Na2R says, there are few countries in the world that have people flocking to it the way the US does.

And if you think the US is abrogating civil rights, try living in a surveillance society with no habeas corpus rights... like the UK.

 

[construct]

You know, I've tried reading this thread several times, but it's always defeated me. There are all these long, long posts not just in complete sentences. They're even divided into paragraphs and stuff. I'll just post a short statement about the beauty of the First Amendment. Free press, freedom of association, freedom of religion, free speech. That is what makes America great to me. A secular society where you can post whatever ideas you might have no matter how reprehensible. I can remember back in the 1980s buying skin-mags printed for Canadian distribution with black squares covering penetration. I've read articles about Canadian customs seizing copies of Pat Califia's Macho Sluts destined for Little Sister's bookstore. We've got the broadest free speech rights of any country on the face of the planet. In my opinion, that puts us head and shoulders above the rest of the world.

 

[andysayshi]

^ Not that I'm disputing that you don't have free speech in the US, but "broadest free speech rights of any country on the face of the planet"? Hmmm...

 

[construct]

As far as I know, this is true, Andy. If you'd like to dispute it, I'd love to find a place with broader freedom of speech.

 

[barefootbob]

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

the bush administration seems to have forgotten the last part in bold, his is not a government OF the people (except repugs and it ilk), BY the people (he didn't get the popular vote in 2000) and FOR the pople (he only does what will benefit people of his ilk; evangelical repug conservatives)

bush and his croneys, his policies, his war, have caused me to be extra critical of my country, a country that I gave 14 years serving in its military, a country I love. I see that he has done near irrepareable harm to it, by his policies and his war.

 

[Chalchalero]

As far as I know, this is true, Andy. If you'd like to dispute it, I'd love to find a place with broader freedom of speech.

Denmark and Holland for two. I doubt that any newspaper in the US would have stood up for the cartoonist who drew the "offensive" cartoons of Mohammed and continued to reprint them in a show of defiance and defence of Free Speech the way the Jyllands-Posten did in Denmark.

I also believe that there is no way that a legislator like Holland's Geert Wilders would have gotten away with even making, let alone releasing a film like Fitna, without all manner of criticism from those who would disagree with the political incorrectness of the film's treatment of Islam. I believe that in this country the phrase "hate speech" would become so over-used as to be nauseating. (Indeed, I sometimes believe it already has...)

In fact, the original hosts of the website where the film was to be released (an American company, Network Solutions) got cold feet and suspended the website. The film is still available on a different website now.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

God I'm tired of hearing about the greatness of your "forefathers", do you really think your forefathers believed that all men were created equal? Their actions certainly didn't make it seem so.

 

[barefootbob]

I actually quoted the Gettysburg address to show the duplcicity in bush's administration and his followers for not allowing that all "people" are created equal; gays, non-christians, non-evangelicals, basically anyone not a W.A.S.P. (white anglo-saxon protestants)

AND

his government isn't a government of the people, by the people and for the people .. just his self interest and his greedy ilk

 

[evil_danger]

We've got the broadest free speech rights of any country on the face of the planet. In my opinion, that puts us head and shoulders above the rest of the world.

You really think that?

Its just I live in a country where, if I want to spend the rest of my life with another man, I'll have (pretty much) the same legal rights as a straight couple.

Or where a gay kiss on tv isn't just accepted, its normal and a part of british TV.

 

[construct]

You really think that?

Its just I live in a country where, if I want to spend the rest of my life with another man, I'll have (pretty much) the same legal rights as a straight couple.

Or where a gay kiss on tv isn't just accepted, its normal and a part of british TV.

I was posting when I was annoyed about other things. Talk to me when I'm irritable and that is the kind of thing you will get. Frankly, I picked the ONE best thing and overstated it. I should have said that our First Amendment freedoms surpass those of all other countries and left it at that. Other factors make the discussion far less certain of outcome.

 

[construct]

Denmark and Holland for two. I doubt that any newspaper in the US would have stood up for the cartoonist who drew the "offensive" cartoons of Mohammed and continued to reprint them in a show of defiance and defence of Free Speech the way the Jyllands-Posten did in Denmark.

I also believe that there is no way that a legislator like Holland's Geert Wilders would have gotten away with even making, let alone releasing a film like Fitna, without all manner of criticism from those who would disagree with the political incorrectness of the film's treatment of Islam. I believe that in this country the phrase "hate speech" would become so over-used as to be nauseating. (Indeed, I sometimes believe it already has...)

In fact, the original hosts of the website where the film was to be released (an American company, Network Solutions) got cold feet and suspended the website. The film is still available on a different website now.

The cartoons were published in the U.S. I didn't have to go to a Danish website to see them.

The film could have been made in the U.S. without prosecution. An American politician could have made the film without suffering disqualification from office. (I grant he might have had a tough campaign getting re-elected, but that's a different matter.)

Public reaction to outrageous speech is (as you note) the only recourse Americans have to offensive speech. America has a Communist Party. America has Stormfront Radio. America has Westboro Baptist Church. The freedom to express outrageous and unpopular viewpoints is protected. Limitation only begins at the point of incitement to immediate criminal activity and criminal falsehood (e.g. fraud, defamation, and the like). Even our defamation laws are narrower than common law slander.

 

[Chalchalero]

The cartoons were published in the U.S. I didn't have to go to a Danish website to see them.

The film could have been made in the U.S. without prosecution. An American politician could have made the film without suffering disqualification from office. (I grant he might have had a tough campaign getting re-elected, but that's a different matter.)

Public reaction to outrageous speech is (as you note) the only recourse Americans have to offensive speech. America has a Communist Party. America has Stormfront Radio. America has Westboro Baptist Church. The freedom to express outrageous and unpopular viewpoints is protected. Limitation only begins at the point of incitement to immediate criminal activity and criminal falsehood (e.g. fraud, defamation, and the like). Even our defamation laws are narrower than common law slander.

I do not deny, nor do I belittle the fact that, constitutionally and ideally, one should be able to express one's beliefs. but the question to which I was referring was one in which it was posited that there can be no better country than this in which one could express one's views. I do not agree.

I will now test this, because so many of you do not practice what you preach.

I believe that Israel is a country that, with its colonialist and expansionist policies remind me of a guy once called Willy, and that with its determination to be a state based upon a certain race and religion reminds me of someone else we used to know affectionately as Adolf, I have to say that I am pretty much the most anti-Zionist non-Muslim on the planet.

Now...I may or may not believe this. But, how would you react if I did???? Would you address what I said? Or would you call me all sorts of names for having said it??? Be careful now, because this really is a great deal more controversial than you can imagine if you are not from New York.

(I have lived through this sort of madness forever, and so am used to it... I am just, predictably, not allowed to discuss it without being called an anti-Semite. Freedom of Speech, or will I be booted - you make the call!)

 

[construct]

I would say you should be called all manner of vile names in angry tones and allowed to run free in the streets, Chalchalero. I predict my opinion would prove to be the majority view. That is the beauty of America's freedom. That's why I'm proud (often, maybe even usually) to be an American.

 

[duroc5088]

Do I think the USA is a great country? Yes. Why? Honest answer........... I'm not sure. I just know that I am proud that I can call myself and American. And I'm proud of the fact that my father, and his father and his father before him, all fought in wars that made it possible for gentlemen like us to have this conversation.

i do get a little teary eyed when i here the national anthem, i have friends that have fought over seas and some that are on their 4th and 5th redeployments. I have a good handle on what is right and wrong, but I will not pass judgment on anyone who wants to berate our fair country. It is their right to do so.

In the original post (very well written btw) it says

To this day I've never understood the "God Bless America" bumper stickers which imply that the U.S. is somehow a better country than others.

to that I ask, is it really a statement? or more of a request for God to bless our country? think about it, it doesn't say, God BLESSED America. I tend to take it more in the light of a question, a short prayer to God if you will. " God bless america and all that we stand for, watch over our people and put your hedge of protection around us in our daily walk" . Maybe that's just me being naive. But that is the way i feel like it is said. I don't see it as, We are the only country that God blesses and that we are the only ones worthy of him looking out for.

If called up would I fight for her? you bet your ass, hell I'll bring my own gun.lol

Does that make me a patriot. I'm not sure, but i do know i'm glad to be here and not a citizen of one of the countries we have troops in.

These are just my thoughts.

dirk