On-Topic Is Being Counter Culture a Viable Choice for All Gay People?

[Rolyo85]

Why would you be subtle? How is that in any way not shame? People will judge you? Let them. Do you WANT homophobes in your life? I sure don't. I'd rather everyone knows that I'm gay from the get go, so I know where I stand with them. I am neither "gay", nor "straight" acting, I am just me. But the very term ACTING implies making an impersonation. There is no dignity in pretending, and there is no dignity in being anonymity. There IS however, a vast chasm of difference between being out and proud and being flamboyant and "gay". You don't have to make a statement to not hide. You just have to never censor your normal responses, or try to deny that you're doing it when you are.

"It's nobody's business" is a bullshit excuse to stay semi-closeted. And the more people act like it's this private thing that they should hide from others to avoid trouble, the longer it will take for gay kids to start growing up in an environment where it's ok to be openly gay.

 

[chance1]

The most powerful gay activism you can perform is merely coming out and showing people how different you are not.

Bravo

Xoxo

 

[shastamc24]

I've just been sort of glancing through these posts and there one thing that stands out. There seems to be a group of people telling others how they should be. It's amusing, since that's exactly what they're arguing against. Who cares if you say straight acting or effeminate or something in between. You're right, using terms like those does insinuate that you must subscribe to a label, but if that's how you choose to identify yourself, go for it. There also seems to be a few rather presumptuous people posting responses, and I can't help but feeling that one in particular is adopting a "holier than though attitude." It's ok; this person also writes ad nauseum criticizing and commenting on US politics, despite the fact they are not a citizen and have no voice in our political system. It's amusing that they presume to tell you and others how to act, when in their country they wouldn't be quite so free to do so.

JayHawk, you aren't wrong to think how you do. You just think differently, and that's ok. To the others, leave him (and whoever else) alone and worry about yourselves.

 

[TX-Beau]

The most powerful gay activism you can perform is merely coming out and showing people how different you are not.

This whole purse fight is pretty much about - heh – paranoia over nomenclature, which sounds silly on one level, but on another really isn’t. There isn’t anyone who can rationally claim being gay makes you no different from being straight.

There’s just no way to argue that.

Now what follows is where the wigging out begins. That difference absolutely does not carry a derogatory connotation on its own. Being gay is different than being straight, but it’s also a normal expression of the spectrum of male sexuality. So far so good.

Until you get to the homophobia. Homophobia DOES attach derogatory connotations to being gay, it requires that gay be seen as perversion of “nature,” of being a real man and a normal guy, that being obviously gay is aberrant, and attaches a host of the usual suspects when it comes to negative stereotyping about how NOT regular guys, gay men are. Which is why when you meet a gay man who’s semi-closeted or outright closeted trying desperately to be just “one of the guys,” that creates suspicion of issues.

“Straight Acting,” is really a manifestation of that. Think about that term. Regular guyness and masculinity are absolutely equated with “straight,” with the implicit assertion and usually the outright intention of distancing oneself from “gay acting,” since we all know gayness is girly and shit. I know this syndrome, I used to be one of these guys – a lot of us go through this phase in our coming out process.

Guys who try to insist that we are “just like straight people,” are pretty much doing the same thing in a weaker form.

We as all kinds of humans have a lot in common with each other, but we are still gay and that means different. The only reason I can see that this offends someone is that they haven’t purged some idea that being gay and having lots in common, or not, is a less desirable thing to call oneself than just avoiding the topic and irrationally insisting that gay people are in fact no different from straight people.

Which is of course, false on its face.

Being out is very important, it’s important if you’re just some schlub down the street, it’s important if you are a drag queen, and neither is more valuable than the other when it comes to standing up for ourselves, and neither is more useful than the other when it comes to gaining acceptance.

After all, some schlub down the street has far less distance to cover when it comes to “being just like straight people,” (as if all straight people are that monolithic anyway,) than the Drag Queen does, and the schlub also has the option of going for conditional acceptance, he can assure the phobes he wears no panties and turn on the Drag Queen because she’s not, “straight acting.”

Sadly, we see that all the time. All of this and all of these issues are not something straight people ever have to deal with, the very fact that you have to demonstrate to straight people how little different you are, underscores the difference itself.

We as gay men can ignore that if we want, but it’s not going away anytime soon.

 

[JayHawk]

Show me where I assumed that arrogant stance. I did nothing of the sort. I asked a simple question. Is being gay acting less desirable then being straight acting?

Where do I see them? Throughout. Most gay people aren't like you.

Really so it is believed between 10 and 20 percent of the population are gay that would be between 30 and 60 million if you just assume our country is 300 million. It is larger of course. So then if you go to the census you find about 2-3% identify as gay. That would include me as well for identification. So since that works out to 3-6 million how can you possibly see the vast majority of gay people as out? By anecdotal evidence only I can say that the majority of gay people I have come across in this life have been of the anonymous type. I have been in pride parades and into the gay scene in Providence RI where I lived for nine years. All together I would say i ran into many more socially challenged people in that period in Providence where my social interaction was mostly with people who wore their sexuality on their sleeves. Perhaps those with more issues need more of a way to act out and show their distress. I have no idea. However it is easy to look at the number of self described gay folks and see that most people are not out of the closet.

Of course that is not describing the number of people identified as gay but who do no other culturally outlandish statement of who they are such as me. No body I see everyday of my life is unaware that I am a gay man. Many people I pass on the street would definitely say I appear heterosexual because gay men have told me so. So how exactly is that living a hidden life?

BTW it is arrogant to assume only outspoken culturally in your face homosexuals have made change. In fact, I would say the culture of the military is the farthest from gay culture in perception and yet when asked the troops said being gay was no issue. Those internal surveys along with a President and congress willing to act were why DAT was overturned. Not some counter culture revolution.

 

[JayHawk]

I've just been sort of glancing through these posts and there one thing that stands out. There seems to be a group of people telling others how they should be. It's amusing, since that's exactly what they're arguing against. Who cares if you say straight acting or effeminate or something in between. You're right, using terms like those does insinuate that you must subscribe to a label, but if that's how you choose to identify yourself, go for it. There also seems to be a few rather presumptuous people posting responses, and I can't help but feeling that one in particular is adopting a "holier than though attitude." It's ok; this person also writes ad nauseum criticizing and commenting on US politics, despite the fact they are not a citizen and have no voice in our political system. It's amusing that they presume to tell you and others how to act, when in their country they wouldn't be quite so free to do so.

JayHawk, you aren't wrong to think how you do. You just think differently, and that's ok. To the others, leave him (and whoever else) alone and worry about yourselves.

Well thank you for affirming that but I was well aware. i am if anything very comfortable in my own skin.

the only thing I think you show a bias on is foreigners voicing an opinion. Being gay is a human condition and not defined by nationality so each person is free to express themselves. The fact that this website originates in Canada means to me that it should always welcome an international flair and in fact we are much better for it.

 

[JayHawk]

This whole purse fight is pretty much about - heh – paranoia over nomenclature, which sounds silly on one level, but on another really isn’t. There isn’t anyone who can rationally claim being gay makes you no different from being straight.

There’s just no way to argue that.

Now what follows is where the wigging out begins. That difference absolutely does not carry a derogatory connotation on its own. Being gay is different than being straight, but it’s also a normal expression of the spectrum of male sexuality. So far so good.

Until you get to the homophobia. Homophobia DOES attach derogatory connotations to being gay, it requires that gay be seen as perversion of “nature,” of being a real man and a normal guy, that being obviously gay is aberrant, and attaches a host of the usual suspects when it comes to negative stereotyping about how NOT regular guys, gay men are. Which is why when you meet a gay man who’s semi-closeted or outright closeted trying desperately to be just “one of the guys,” that creates suspicion of issues.

“Straight Acting,” is really a manifestation of that. Think about that term. Regular guyness and masculinity are absolutely equated with “straight,” with the implicit assertion and usually the outright intention of distancing oneself from “gay acting,” since we all know gayness is girly and shit. I know this syndrome, I used to be one of these guys – a lot of us go through this phase in our coming out process.

Guys who try to insist that we are “just like straight people,” are pretty much doing the same thing in a weaker form.

We as all kinds of humans have a lot in common with each other, but we are still gay and that means different. The only reason I can see that this offends someone is that they haven’t purged some idea that being gay and having lots in common, or not, is a less desirable thing to call oneself than just avoiding the topic and irrationally insisting that gay people are in fact no different from straight people.

Which is of course, false on its face.

Being out is very important, it’s important if you’re just some schlub down the street, it’s important if you are a drag queen, and neither is more valuable than the other when it comes to standing up for ourselves, and neither is more useful than the other when it comes to gaining acceptance.

After all, some schlub down the street has far less distance to cover when it comes to “being just like straight people,” (as if all straight people are that monolithic anyway,) than the Drag Queen does, and the schlub also has the option of going for conditional acceptance, he can assure the phobes he wears no panties and turn on the Drag Queen because she’s not, “straight acting.”

Sadly, we see that all the time. All of this and all of these issues are not something straight people ever have to deal with, the very fact that you have to demonstrate to straight people how little different you are, underscores the difference itself.

We as gay men can ignore that if we want, but it’s not going away anytime soon.

How about replacing straight acting with average person. What is wrong with being a average human being enjoying their life? Do we all have to stand for your specific something or we are not fullfilled?

I aint throwing rocks either. You seem to respond as such. Try not wigging out and calling me names based on assumptions. I am asking you to clarify your position.

 

[shastamc24]

Fair enough It just gets annoying; I lived in Germany for a year, yet I wouldn't presume to believe that I should comment constantly on their politics and how they should be and why my opinions are 100% correct, and you disagree then you are stupid and ignorant when I am not a citizen of that country. Opinions, sure. It just feels like it goes beyond that, at times. Oh well, whatever.

 

[TX-Beau]

How about replacing straight acting with average person. What is wrong with being a average human being enjoying their life? Do we all have to stand for your specific something or we are not fullfilled?

I aint throwing rocks either. You seem to respond as such. Try not wigging out and calling me names based on assumptions. I am asking you to clarify your position.

Well assuming we are done lobbing stinkbombs, most of that you are arguing against you came up with, or someone else did, not me - and I never called you any names.

There is nothing WRONG with being however you are and I don't believe anyone ever said that either. In fact I'd consider it extremely important for you to be who you are as an average person, which is the damn point. You are an average GAY person, not an average straight person who just happens to fuck men.

That's not being the same as straight, instead of asking me why that should be so important, let me ask you why it should be dismissed away as unimportant?

 

[JayHawk]

Oh I don't dismiss it as unimportant. It is integral to who I am but not the basis for everything I am.

When I see terms sent my way such as homophobic and closeted it makes me think those are insults because that is not who I am. it is just a convenient label to describe someone when a person desires to prove their point.

 

[TX-Beau]

I think the pressure you felt to expand from some very terse statements of mine to a full blown essay shows that I did not explain or elaborate adequately enough for you my own feelings, and maybe you have developed the wrong impression of what I really believe.

Let's get the first thing out of the way, the charge that being gay is the same as being straight. Our enemies call this the "gay lifestyle." My retort is, I don't see a difference between me and my partner and my next door neighbors, who are an unmarried straight couple the same age, that is worth derision.

Second, I really don't care to wade into the debate about how some people act and offer a judgment. Why? Because I am sick of the eternal war between those who adopt cultural gayness and those who do not. It is stupid and pointless, hurtful, and unproductive. We have enough enemies that we don't need to make ones in our own community. That being said, I am going to inject my perspective to help rule out some contention: Most gay people have not adopted the gay cultural artifacts of speech and fashion. Of course, it is of no import whatsoever. I celebrate people as they come and nobody should feel they have to conform to anything but the mannerisms and culture they freely express. That is what gay pride is all about, why we have six colors on our flag. I guess the point of all this is the more exposure people have to gays of all kinds is the more togetherness there will be in society.

Third, the emphasis on coming out is grounded on showing the human side of homosexuality and the spectrum of gay culture as different LGBTs express. Yes, there is one; it's wonderful and worth preserving and celebrating. There are Indians two doors down and gays in this house, yet we are altogether on this street just plain folks, despite having distinct family norms, cultural practices, etc. In the gay community, is there really a norm? There is a norm so far as nearly all gays have responsibilities and homes and jobs and friends and family.

So I guess the discussion really boils down to defining multiculturalism.

I don't disagree with you, I used your comment as a springboard because it was the most neutral. Nothing more, didn't mean to imply anything about you.

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh I don't dismiss it as unimportant. It is integral to who I am but not the basis for everything I am.

When I see terms sent my way such as homophobic and closeted it makes me think those are insults because that is not who I am. it is just a convenient label to describe someone when a person desires to prove their point.

Look, we as gay men take years purging homophobic ideas and attitudes out of our heads. Sometimes they are buried so deep in there we don't even see them for a long time. I'm not preaching at you, I was no different. I had such huge issues with my own gay that I went through a phase where I couldn't even say the word.

There are key words and phrases that have been used by phobes for all of this, and us gay men as code, if you are using them and don't mean it in that fashion, you need to be careful, because it's easy to misunderstand.

 

[JayHawk]

Okay so help me out is anonymous a secret scary word for you? Because simply living your life day to day is anonymous. What other words did i use that you identified with yourself as things you used to deflect?

 

[Rolyo85]

No, simply living your life day to day is not anonymous. Anonymity is hiding. And more or less means "being closeted". Your day to day life might not be in anybody's face, but the moment you let go of his hand because you're nearing a populated area, or refrain from giving him a peck on the lips goodbye when you want to (if you do), or keep quiet when "the guys" are talking about the girls they wanna bang, instead of contributing when you want to (if you do), you're no longer living your life, you are living a lie.

We are conditioned from pre-consciousness to hide being gay. We grow up hiding, and some of us hide until very late in their lives. Our formative years, when we develop our behavioral instincts, are spent hiding. NONE of this simply goes away when you muster the courage and find people you feel comfortable enough with to share your secret. Just because you're out, none of this goes away on its own. And neither does it go away by finding justifications of why you keep quiet when the straight guy doesn't. "It's nobody's business" is a statement ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE to gay men. Because they have the option to hide. And so many of them do.

Everyone has the right to live their life the way they see fit (and puh-lease, nobody here is telling anyone otherwise - criticism isn't demand for a change), but it is important for me to know the reasons why I've chosen to live the life I do, and not some other life. And though it might not matter too much, most of you guys do not post in COR&BT as me and TX-Beau do. We've spent a long time actively helping people there, and it gives you a perspective on the patterns of different gay behaviors that could potentially change our outlook compared to yours.

 

[JayHawk]

I have answered it in spades. To assume your style of living is the only valid form of being gay is arrogant. But you have made up your mind and the only thing to follow will be angry denials. So you just take your beliefs and go live with them and I will happily live my life.

 

[JayHawk]

No, simply living your life day to day is not anonymous. Anonymity is hiding. And more or less means "being closeted". Your day to day life might not be in anybody's face, but the moment you let go of his hand because you're nearing a populated area, or refrain from giving him a peck on the lips goodbye when you want to (if you do), or keep quiet when "the guys" are talking about the girls they wanna bang, instead of contributing when you want to (if you do), you're no longer living your life, you are living a lie.

We are conditioned from pre-consciousness to hide being gay. We grow up hiding, and some of us hide until very late in their lives. Our formative years, when we develop our behavioral instincts, are spent hiding. NONE of this simply goes away when you muster the courage and find people you feel comfortable enough with to share your secret. Just because you're out, none of this goes away on its own. And neither does it go away by finding justifications of why you keep quiet when the straight guy doesn't. "It's nobody's business" is a statement ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE to gay men. Because they have the option to hide. And so many of them do.

Everyone has the right to live their life the way they see fit (and puh-lease, nobody here is telling anyone otherwise - criticism isn't demand for a change), but it is important for me to know the reasons why I've chosen to live the life I do, and not some other life. And though it might not matter too much, most of you guys do not post in COR&BT as me and TX-Beau do. We've spent a long time actively helping people there, and it gives you a perspective on the patterns of different gay behaviors that could potentially change our outlook compared to yours.

I have posted multiple time in there in the past. I stopped because of the self righteous preaching that occurs over there. If you think your attitude is justified by frequent posting I would simply point you to the republican posters of CEP? They must be correct they sure do post a lot.

So anonymous does not mean hiding. gee now we are 15 posts back where I stated my original opinion. Women also keep a nobodies business attitude because there is a great deal of bias when it comes to promiscuity and gender. For that matter in other ethnicities a none of your business attitude is prevalent as well. Japanese and Filipino cultures come clearly to mind. So it is in no way unique.

- - - Updated - - -

Again this isn't answering it. I never assumed such a thing. I'm not even "gay acting". I don't put myself in a label, so what is my style of living?

Answer my question, is being gay less desirable then being straight? Is being gay acting less desirable then straight acting (if we must use these limiting labels)? A yes or no answer would suffice.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[JayHawk]

GC whether it is politics or sexual identity speaking with you is fruitless. You just want to hear that you are correct. Pardon me if I have no interest.

 

[Rolyo85]

I have answered it in spades. To assume your style of living is the only valid form of being gay is arrogant. But you have made up your mind and the only thing to follow will be angry denials. So you just take your beliefs and go live with them and I will happily live my life.

Not a single person here has said that. It is disappointing that you stoop so low as to invent opinions to battle instead of actually analyzing the real ones people have. TX-Beau was right - you are arguing with yourself.

PS - other than the fact that I'm a music student, I can assure you my life is just as "normal" as yours. I just don't ever hide the "gay" from it... But yeah, I'm glad all my posts are being ignored for the sake of one-line accusations that have nothing to do with them.

And yes - you haven't answered his question. We're all waiting.

 

[JayHawk]

You stated earlier that people who are hidden do nothing for Gay people as a whole. (back when anonymity was conflated with closeted) I provided statistical facts about who is considered gay in America versus who actually self identifies as such. Yet you still claim only those vocal counter culture gays make a difference.


Actually you know what... you will never claim understanding so this is pointless.

 

[Rolyo85]

I have posted multiple time in there in the past. I stopped because of the self righteous preaching that occurs over there. If you think your attitude is justified by frequent posting I would simply point you to the republican posters of CEP? They must be correct they sure do post a lot.

Posting there a lot doesn't mean anything. Reading and comprehending does. There are patterns, and those become visible after a while. You clearly aren't aware of them, or you wouldn't be asking why "anonymous" is a problem. And once again you are using the line of least friction, ignoring the message in my post to attack some inconsequential detail. The reason for that - the only one I can see - is that you have nothing to say to that.

So anonymous does not mean hiding. gee now we are 15 posts back where I stated my original opinion. Women also keep a nobodies business attitude because there is a great deal of bias when it comes to promiscuity and gender. For that matter in other ethnicities a none of your business attitude is prevalent as well. Japanese and Filipino cultures come clearly to mind. So it is in no way unique.

I am talking about the US, not random cultures in random other places. And the only reason women do it is because they have to hide, forced by heteronormative culture which stigmatizes them. You are in fact defending MY point by giving this example of blatant unfairness. In other news, women don't hide they're women. Being gay is a bit more relevant than how much sex you are (not) having.