Is it racist to say "WHITE PEOPLE ARE OVERRATED"...

[bankside]

I can't with Bankside's posts.

To say that you are confident and entitled not because you are white, but because everyone should be is one of the most telling statements I've ever read in terms of people not knowing their own privilege or the struggles of others.

Confidence and entitlement are things given to us in small doses over time. It comes from people smiling when you enter the room. How often you are sought after by others. Getting a job or an opportunity. The power your family had when you are young. How likely someone is to hold the door for you. Keep eye contact with you. Like you.

Until you live a life in the shoes of someone of another color and know that these qualities are all the same, you have NO right to say that your confidence and entitlement don't come from being white.

Confidence and entitlement are given in small doses over time. And they can be taken away like that too. I'm not sure why they should be taken away from white people. Instead, shouldn't everybody have those things made available to them?

I believe you've hit the nail on the head and I totally accept your definition of how confidence develops…it's just that it's not a thing you have to do at the expense of people who are supposedly "privileged" because if it is a privilege or some kind of "unfair advantage," why should anybody have it?

And what I'm looking for is recognition that confidence does not come my way from someone who would only smile at me because I'm white. And I'm looking for recognition that I would get a boost like that from anybody who smiled at me no matter what their ethnicity. I think there is a risk that someone from an ethnic minority might disempower themselves unless they know that.

And I suppose I make a deliberate point about "growing up white." Well unless you are white, unless white people talk about growing up and issues of race, then how is anybody going to know what's going through our minds, because as you say "until you life a life in the shoes of someone of another colour" you don't know. I find a lot of people talk about race issues from an ethnic-minority point of view, and in order to have the conversation they have to make assumptions about what is going through white people's minds, but how do they know any more than anyone else about someone else's experiences with ethnicity?

So maybe it's all a bunch of "telling statements" about my ignorance. I don't think so for anyone willing to actually read what I've said and maybe ask a few fair-minded questions to clarify anything I've said. But even if that's true, it is insight into The Mind of The White Guy™ that you'd never had if I just decided to STFU.

 

[Frogger17]

We discuss homophobia every single hour on this board, yet people act as if racism is such a stretch of a topic. Think about that.

What, girl, you mad? The Davis don't care.

 

[hylas]

what bothers me about your attitude is that you present yourself as this guy 'who lives as it should be, unburdened by racial issues', almost like youre some kind of ideal. i think given your background, a little more humility is required. when it comes to this particular issue, listening may be more appropriate than preaching.

my point isnt that caucasian people dont have valid or valuable opinions and experiences. my point is that they may not be the experts regarding this one specific subject, and thats something to be aware of. you, on the other hand, seem to be very convinced about yourself here. but from my perspective, youre coming across as well-meaning but clueless and more than a little smug.

you talk about 'taking away confidence from white people'. i dont think anybody here really wants caucasian people to crawl in shame and guilt, or anything like that. but the way you take the importance of your own opinion for granted - even regarding this very subject, where your background makes you less experienced - is exactly the kind of [STRIKE]confidence[/STRIKE] arrogance that caucasian people could have less of.

 

[bankside]

what bothers me about your attitude is that you present yourself as this guy 'who lives as it should be, unburdened by racial issues', almost like youre some kind of ideal. i think given your background, a little more humility is required. when it comes to this particular issue, listening may be more appropriate than preaching.

my point isnt that caucasian people dont have valid or valuable opinions and experiences. my point is that they may not be the experts regarding this one specific subject, and thats something to be aware of. you, on the other hand, seem to be very convinced about yourself here. but from my perspective, youre coming across as well-meaning but clueless and more than a little smug.

you talk about 'taking away confidence from white people'. i dont think anybody here really wants caucasian people to crawl in shame and guilt, or anything like that. but the way you take the importance of your own opinion for granted - even regarding this very subject, where your background makes you less experienced - is exactly the kind of [STRIKE]confidence[/STRIKE] arrogance that caucasian people could have less of.

Hylas, if white people, actively or through selfish indifference, are promoters of racism, they have the experience and expertise about the psychology of a racist system that anti-racists need to know about. Talking may be as appropriate as listening…

And if I'm part of some privileged group, you'd think people would want to take advantage of what I can supposedly reveal about the dynamics and weaknesses of that group. It's not a question of arrogance or humility - it's like saying "I went under cover and I have the plans to the Death Star. Use them. No, actually, I'm pretty sure you need to sink a torpedo down this exhaust shaft here...no, I'm not being smug….I just think that concentrating your attack on the death ray won't be effec….yes, I'm aware that you're in charge of the mission, but…"

Incidentally, you seem to demonstrate a lot of certainty in your own opinions, hylas. I think I'm in good company of [STRIKE]smug[/STRIKE] confident men.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…defensive…

I've never understood what that means. Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[bankside]

This sounds as messed up as if I were to go into a thread about internalized homophobia and say: "If you're from a sexual minority and you don't feel the same confidence and sense of normalcy about your sexual orientation then you need to know that what I (as a straight person) have is not privilege, it's just the way everybody's supposed to feel."

I once had a woman from the womyn's centre tell me that she couldn't possibly give me any insight into homophobia or heterosexism because she, herself, was straight. I wondered what was wrong with her powers of observation and her sense of empathy.

Ending homophobia requires self-examination of issues of sexuality and equality on the part of all people, not just the gay ones. It requires mutual reflection and understanding. And it is okay for a straight woman like the one I was talking to do that, and then speak as authoritatively about the issues as I can. It's also okay for her to register an awareness that she has the power to help, not as my heterosexual counterpart, but as just another person interested in equality. And, for that matter, to reject the idea that heterosexual "privilege" exists in that sphere of life for which she is both knowledgeable and responsible.

Empathy is an interesting biological adaptation btw; it actually allows us to experience something that has happened to someone else; the brain runs it through the same circuitry as when we process our own perceptions of things happening directly to us. She literally could, if not discouraged by a false sense of otherness, "feel my pain" or that of anyone impacted by homophobia.

I think most people, in one way or another, deal with body image issues at some point in their lives.

So perhaps we can not only empathize with others but compare it to our own direct experience?

Ever seen tests like these? Or Doll Test experiments? What do you think accounts for this?

Skin Color - The Way Kids See It

Yes. It's heartbreaking, isn't it. And bizarre. I'd suggest they're caught up in adult drama and trying to navigate it. Yet when we listen to their comments, a lot of them still have a lot of wisdom and optimism about trying to overcome that drama.

"Show me the dumb child!" Those kids were primed by adults to answer that question in a certain way and to believe certain things about the answer. Even the kid at the end, who rejected the question of which he would like to have as a classmate by answering "all of them," understood the adult drama of the question. It's a racialized community. But in other places, the children would have answered "I don't know," or "I can't tell!" My theory is we should learn from communities like that.

Is it really so hard to acknowledge that? Without feeling like white people are being attacked? Bankside, I usually enjoy reading your insightful comments on other topics but I feel like you're being unnecessarily defensive here.

What's not to acknowledge? Stating that equality should exist is not an attempt to pretend that equality exists everywhere.

But do you not see the intellectual danger of arguing that self-confidence and self-esteem are a privilege? Some kind of ill-gotten gains that people should be stripped of? It the same kind of 99% vs. 1% language used in discussions of economics.

The way people assert their equality matters, and to say "I'm glad my eyes are finally open to the beauty in all ethnicities" is a fundamentally different message than saying one group is overrated.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…you have the privilege of not having to being constantly shut down or told you're not good enough because of your race. You have the privilege of not having to internally process the messages the media presents saying your race is not preferable…

But where are you? and what media are you watching? Asians get big representation in Asia and they get a smaller representation in the USA. The media is capitalism and it chases the bigger dollar. The USA is a democracy and it kowtows to the bigger portion of the population.

 

[bankside]

I think if someone from a privileged group wants to be an effective ally of a marginalized group, the first step is to acknowledge his/her privilege. Otherwise, why even bother? How can you go about confronting the issues and coming up with solutions if you can't even admit to yourself that your advantages are putting others at a disadvantage on a systemic level? Another important thing to keep in mind is that no matter how well versed you become on the issues, you should never try to speak as if you know more about the unique struggles a marginalized person faces than they do themselves. As a straight woman, this is the approach I take when I'm dealing with LGBT issues.

In your case, you want to try and understand where POC are coming from (which is great) but you refuse to acknowledge your privilege. I think this is why your attempts at empathizing are falling short here. Your intentions seem to be focused more on disproving the existence of white privilege instead of trying to understand how POC deal with internalized racism and how the eurocentric beauty standards they see in the media impact their body image/self-perception.

How can you on one hand acknowledge that inequality exists but on the other hand dismiss the idea that the people who are benefiting from the inequality are privileged? Because this what I feel you are doing in this thread.

And once again, having confidence and high self-esteem isn't the issue. The concept of privilege in this context has to do with the extent to which our society is accommodating of beauty that falls outside the eurocentric standard. The reality is that our society is NOT very accommodating, which puts POC at a disadvantage and white people at an advantage when it comes to developing a healthy self-image.



I totally agree. I told the OP that I don't see the point in pitting races against each other. Beauty is diverse.

I reject the label of being part of a privileged group on account of skin colour in the same way that I reject the idea that men voting was the real problem before women got the franchise. It isn't the relative position of each group that matters, it is one's individual access to a principled ideal that needs to be the goal.

The problem was not that men had the vote; the problem was that women did not. I try to be an effective ally by calling that reality like I see it, and by suggesting that "white privilege" is an intellectual dead end to anyone who wants to rid himself of internalized racism.

Moreover, I don't accept that there is a dynamic of privilege between the two of us, one being straight, and one being gay. I recognize the world is not free of every last homophobic individual, but that does not inform the relationship or the balance between two civilized people.

 

[bankside]

This is just an all around confusing post.
Are you suggesting that if we go by the idea that whites are part of a "privileged group," then non-whites would want to use the techniques that whites use to keep the nonwhites down in order to rise to the top?
I just wanted to make sure that's what you're saying before I dissect it.

No - sorry about confusion…I'm saying that if whites are part of a community that knows how to implement racism, the psychology of white people, the dynamics and cleavages of "the white community," and how white people actually think about race, should be of interest to anyone who wants to defeat that system.

This is an incredibly weird analogy. There may be "room" on the "heights of privilege" but clearly the "heights" are solely reserved for a certain group of people. I'm sure everyone would like to be atop those heights but just because you want it, doesn't mean you'll get it.
You might want everyone of color to have equal access to those heights, but for every person who has the same way of thinking as you, there are probably 10 people who will, consciously or unconsciously, beat down anyways trying to get on that escalator.

Are there now?

Storm the bastions! You might find people opening the doors from the inside and fighting along side you.

What should people aspire to, and insist on, if not equal access to the heights of human experience. "Just getting by okay" doesn't exactly inspire.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

@bankside: i kinda hate to sound the "youre white so you dont understand"-trumpet, but well, your post comes off as a little smug and ignorant to me.

Yeah, because only [my particular ethnicity/gender/whatever] is discriminated against. [eye roll] Everyone is discriminated against at some point. In this PC diversity-mandated world even white males are being fired or not getting promoted because of race and gender. And Heaven help you if you're Christian. So there actually be the possibility that your trumpet comes off as jus a bit self-righteous.

the sad fact is that caucasian people are priviledged. thats not the fault of any one caucasian person, but thats how the system has been built, and its changing but only very slowly. you probably have a blind spot or two when it comes to racial issues, and thats understandable and fine, but that post above seems to be terribly blazé about it.

The system may have been built that way, but you obviously haven't paid attention to the add-ons. Things have changed to such a degree that a case can actually be made that certain people simply prefer the way it was; after all, look at the antipathy towards those that can and want to move out of the urban blight, the sheer amount of ethnic-geared scholarships that are unclaimed every year, and that certain musical communities judge quality by color of the person's skin. I hate agreeing with Aaron McGruder, but Boondocks probably has a finger on how MLK would react if he was alive today. Stop living in the past and join us here in the present...

(oh god no i let myself be sucked into a race thread again. i will never ever learn)

Heh...

RG

 

[bankside]

I totally agree. I told the OP that I don't see the point in pitting races against each other. Beauty is diverse.

This is essentially my point and I'm surprised it hasn't been recognized in my posts : dividing the world up into "races with privilege" and "races who are oppressed" is an intellectual dead end because it doesn't contribute to the weakening of racism.

It just provokes people to sit down with a spreadsheet and start tallying the times when things didn't go their way. The world should be divided up into "people working to limit the effects of racism" and "those who are not."

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

To say that you are confident and entitled not because you are white, but because everyone should be is one of the most telling statements I've ever read in terms of people not knowing their own privilege or the struggles of others.

Yeah, because non-whites should never feel confident or entitled to basic rights...[record scratch] Er.....WHAT? Think about what YOU just said. How fucked up is that?

Confidence and entitlement are things given to us in small doses over time. It comes from people smiling when you enter the room. How often you are sought after by others. Getting a job or an opportunity. The power your family had when you are young. How likely someone is to hold the door for you. Keep eye contact with you. Like you.

Then there is the other side of the coin. You have plenty of black people walking into situations where they are the ones bringing the attitude and expect people to adapt to them. I've interviewed people for jobs that came into an office wearing tight party dresses and sagging jeans, thinking that it was appropriate wear for a professional setting. I've known black people that went in expecting racism, and no matter how courteously they were treated, thought it was because they were scared of the black person and didn't want to tick her off. Courtesy, by the way, that I've come to expect.

Seek and ye shall find. If you want to see racism everywhere, then you will find it. And some people are looking awfully hard. And if they don't find it, they get made fun of for it. Weird how that works, huh? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies....

Until you live a life in the shoes of someone of another color and know that these qualities are all the same, you have NO right to say that your confidence and entitlement don't come from being white.

Sorry, but I got tired of living life like it was a bad message book and starting living in reality. Stop acting like the put-upon minority, and you may stop getting reactions like one....

RG

 

[bankside]

RobinGoodfellow, without debating you on the attitudes of people you've interviewed (which I might get to in a minute), what responsibility do you feel to end racist attitudes that might affect people around you?

 

[hylas]

Yeah, because only [my particular ethnicity/gender/whatever] is discriminated against. [eye roll] Everyone is discriminated against at some point. In this PC diversity-mandated world even white males are being fired or not getting promoted because of race and gender.

you poor thing. so sometimes, even the white male is discriminated against!
my empathy is boundless. no, wait, its that other word: non-existent.

if youre seriously comparing the occasional ethnicity-based disadvantage caucasians may face with the systematic and deep-rooted discrimination people of all other ethnicities face, then you truly need to read up on stuff.

The system may have been built that way, but you obviously haven't paid attention to the add-ons.(...) Stop living in the past and join us here in the present...

oh, so the racial discrimination ive been faced with... more specifically, the indoctrination with racial inequality regarding beauty standards (which is what this thread about)... so ive just imagined it! all the pain, the adversity, the conflict ive faced and still am... its just in my head! because i havent been paying attention! thank god a white guy came along to tell me how things are much better.

f you want to see racism everywhere, then you will find it. And some people are looking awfully hard. And if they don't find it, they get made fun of for it. Weird how that works, huh? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies....
(...)
Stop acting like the put-upon minority, and you may stop getting reactions like one....

so, not only is racism an illusion... its even my own fault!
truly, the nerve you have.

 

[refujiunderground]

Yeah, because non-whites should never feel confident or entitled to basic rights...[record scratch] Er.....WHAT? Think about what YOU just said. How fucked up is that?


Then there is the other side of the coin. You have plenty of black people walking into situations where they are the ones bringing the attitude and expect people to adapt to them. I've interviewed people for jobs that came into an office wearing tight party dresses and sagging jeans, thinking that it was appropriate wear for a professional setting. I've known black people that went in expecting racism, and no matter how courteously they were treated, thought it was because they were scared of the black person and didn't want to tick her off. Courtesy, by the way, that I've come to expect.

Seek and ye shall find. If you want to see racism everywhere, then you will find it. And some people are looking awfully hard. And if they don't find it, they get made fun of for it. Weird how that works, huh? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies....



Sorry, but I got tired of living life like it was a bad message book and starting living in reality. Stop acting like the put-upon minority, and you may stop getting reactions like one....

RG

okay stop right there dude and stop talking out your ass for a second.

number uno, it sounds like you're finding an excuse to act a certain way if you ask me. you remind me of some of the people that come into my job and get all condescending with me because i'm black and they happen to be white. instead of just acting like themselves or how they do around their friends or everybody else around me, they feel to pull the whole "knowwhati'msaying", "what up dog?" "yo yo yo" and i hit them back with the . i don't even care if those guys or girls didn't come right dressed to the job, it doesn't give you a right to get all condescending with them to the point where you're talking ebonics trying to be slick. it's not funny, it's not cute, and that person you're doing it to has every right to get up in your face for that. if anything you treat that person like how you would treat anybody else if they didn't come prepared to their job interview. quit trying to find loopholes for your ignorance.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

[facepalm]

you poor thing. so sometimes, even the white male is discriminated against!
my empathy is boundless. no, wait, its that other word: non-existent.

And this is why racism continues. My point was more of a "everyone is discriminated against, so let's work together to stop it" than a "OMG! I wuz a victum". By making it universal rather than specific it becomes everyone's problem and not just that of a specific group. But let's ignore a specific group because it just doesn't fit into our worldview...

oh, so the racial discrimination ive been faced with... more specifically, the indoctrination with racial inequality regarding beauty standards (which is what this thread about)

People like what people like. Deal.

... so ive just imagined it! all the pain, the adversity, the conflict ive faced and still am... its just in my head! because i havent been paying attention! thank god a white guy came along to tell me how things are much better.

I'm sorry; I wasn't that I needed to allow for each and every injustice that has ever been done to any individual due to that person's racial, etc., background. If that's the case, where do I begin? Do I count the slaughter of every indigenous person, including re-education attempts? How about the treatment of groups such as the gypsies and Jewish, forced to never settle down and killed or beaten due to their permanent outsider status for much of history? How about the beating, imprisonment and death to homosexuals? Can we count religious persecution as well? There's a lot of suffering out there...

I'm sorry if I don't see a point in prioritizing which groups have been treated the worst because from my reading it seems like there is plenty of suffering out there. I'd rather figure out a way for everyone to live in harmony as much as possible. You want to focus in on one group? Fine. But realize that not just that one group has suffered discrimination.

so, not only is racism an illusion... its even my own fault!

Oh boy. I don't think I've ever said that racism is an illusion; in fact, I think that I've said just the opposite. I'm just thinking that racism isn't limited to whites only...

truly, the nerve you have.

Je suis une artiste, et le coeur d'une artiste est "le nerve".

bankside: I think it's everyone's responsibility to do something against racism. Defending someone else is the same as defending yourself. Or do you not remember that poem about how members of various groups were taken, and the guy didn't defend them even though he could, until he himself was taken away?

RG

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

okay stop right there dude and stop talking out your ass for a second.

How about actually listening to what's being said?

number uno, it sounds like you're finding an excuse to act a certain way if you ask me. you remind me of some of the people that come into my job and get all condescending with me because i'm black and they happen to be white.

[facepalm]
Nope. Trying to point out that racism is a little more complex than just, "OMG! It's a black person! RUN!" Sometimes the issue goes both ways, and that a person's perception that a decision was made because of that person's skin color is not always accurate. Adding to the issue is that a person expecting to be treated in a negative fashion will be treated in a negative fashion through the person's own behavior.

Read: Yeah, there are plenty of racists out there. But there are also plenty of assholes out there that are spoiling for a fight, and acting like the other person is a racist just helps to get the adrenalin going. [Yeah, I've been called a racist because I fell asleep on a bus, the legs went into the aisle, and I ended up ruining a polish because the guy ran into my feet. Seriously...?]

i don't even care if those guys or girls didn't come right dressed to the job, it doesn't give you a right to get all condescending with them to the point where you're talking ebonics trying to be slick.

You didn't get called out because you made a decision based on the situation. I did. A job interview is about whether or not a person will work out or not. I'm all for self-expression, however coming into an interview dressed in a slinky dress that doesn't really cover anything is probably not the best attire for a conservative office setting. And yeah; I've that happen with a number of women regardless of race. HOWEVER to say that you were not hired because of your skin color rather than because of your issues (you know, the whole not giving a damn about proper office attire) does not do you any real good. I appreciated the dress; she was definitely a beautiful woman. But...she came off as a sexual harassment case waiting to happen.

Yeah, I know I should say something smart ass about the guy's cute butt. But...I just shouldn't have to look at someone's underwear all day long just because he hasn't figured out how to wear a belt right. I also have to look at the speed in which someone does their job, and that style does not exactly lend itself to speed [ducks].

BTW: When have I ever used ebonics? I'm using an obvious leetspeak wannabe dialect. Or at least I thought it was obvious...Also, if we're going to slam grammar use here, would it hurt you to use capitals once in a while? Just saying....

it's not funny, it's not cute, and that person you're doing it to has every right to get up in your face for that.

No, they don't. In this case I am not trying to be cute nor funny (usually I am, but not in this case); I'm trying to make sure that I hire people that will move the business forward. If I call someone in for an interview, I want to work with them, and wearing something inappropriate is usually one of the best signs I have that the person is not going to help. Second chances are given, but it comes down to the person.

No offense, but seriously think about that for a second: If someone came in for an interview and was an apparent sexual harassment case waiting to happen, would you hire them? How would you handle it? Before you come down on me for being an ass, I would really like to see your solution to the problem. Oh, wait...your apparent solution was to come down on the interviewer rather than look at it through his eyes. I'm really not feeling that bad all of a sudden.

if anything you treat that person like how you would treat anybody else if they didn't come prepared to their job interview. quit trying to find loopholes for your ignorance.

I don't think I'm really the one being ignorant here. After all, I'm trying to point out that there is more than perspective to any situation to someone who isn't bothering to even look past his own....

RG

 

[MaxBlack]

No. To say "[insert race here] PEOPLE ARE OVERRATED" is not racist.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…have I ever used ebonics? I'm using an obvious leetspeak wannabe dialect…

What is the current JUB etiquette on these phenomena? Should I be worried? Am I offending someone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics

 

[asianstudlover]

You shouldn't lump all white guys together. There are guys of all races you can be attracted to. Here are pictures of 5 men, all gorgeous, all different races.

1) Asian

2) Latino

3) Caucasian

4) Asian Indian

5) African American

I don't think anyone here finds them unattractive.

they're all 10/10. Especially that asian stud! damn look at that jawlines yum! bet he's a top.