is NATO still relevant?

[bankside]

So here we have it; the US spends more than the rest of the world combined on military endeavours while failing to keep up to date with its UN dues which are modest by comparison. NATO countries spend varying amounts on militarism which may or may not exceed an informal benchmark depending on whether or not there is a cold war going on.

Pffft.

I can only imagine the foreign policy gains that would come from not a 2% minimum, but a 1.5% cap, with the remaining funds invested in diplomacy and development.

Countries are entitled to choose negotiation over warmaking, even as contributing members of the NATO alliance. Nothing to stop the States from making the same choice instead of whining about why others aren't as gun crazy as they are.

 

[bankside]

Other people believe NATO is a shameless waste of taxpayers' money. Those people, and the countries that contain them, are being dumped on here. But it goes both ways.

 

[JB3]

Other people believe NATO is a shameless waste of taxpayers' money. Those people, and the countries that contain them, are being dumped on here. But it goes both ways.

How is it dumping on them to call them out for their lack of contribution?

 

[JayHawk]

^If you choose to indulge in petty, frivolous gossip intended to embarrass, and abuse the French, then so be it.

Oh stick a cock in it. I said it was wrong and I was mistaken. DO I need to go on national tv and swear I will stand by my fake arrnaged wife marriage and then resign my JUBership.

Gloating fools are best to be ignored. Too bad I cant take my own advice.

 

[JayHawk]

Just imagine all those aircraft, ships, tanks, munitions, missiles etc that are enthusiastically purchased by other NATO countries.

The American armaments industry does very well out of purchases made by NATO member countries. Such purchases also ensure that investments in future military hardware is subsidised by such "foreign" purchasers.

They buy the best equipment because it is tested and beats the rest in haed to head actual combat. I suppose your right those they would want equipment that would not win everytime if we werent best buds and paying their share.

 

[JayHawk]

^I believe the UN to be a shameless waste of the taxpayers' money.

Ditto times a thousand

 

[JayHawk]

No repetition is not necessarily truth. The Europeans on here keep saying they are not weak. That repetition doesn't make it true.

It was a play towards the childhood saying of "Oh yeah 'X' plus infinity". Except I was serious. The UN is a fucking JOKE worldwide.

 

[JB3]

Taking only NATO contributions into account, you can rightfully lambast some of them for failing to make 'fair' contributions to the organisation. Many of those members however make a substantial greater contribution of their respective GDP's towards international relief aid than the USA does.

Possibly, if the US cut its NATO contributions in order to match international relief aid contributions, the overall difference in NATO funds would perhaps be too insignificant for any one nation to nit-pick over.


On another note. Anyone who thinks NATO is of more use to Europe than the States, it might be worth remembering that the last UN member to benefit from NATO's humanitarian aid was in fact the US, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

We're not talking humanitarian aid.

 

[Kulindahr]

(To the others: have you noticed a pattern? The Americans in this thread want to pull out of NATO and now the UN, while the others (non-Americans) are insisting that we stay in. What's wrong with this picture?)

Hey!

I'm not advocating pulling out of NATO, I just want to reform it.


As for the UN, I have an idea:

Take the amount of our levied dues, D.

Take the total number of nations in the UN, N.

Take the number of nations which honor human rights, H.


The actual dues we pay should be D*(H/N).

 

[zelenabanana]

NATO was made as defending organization due to Wasaw Pact. No Warsaw Pact no NATO!

NATO today is a tool in the (mainly) US hands to attack and do aggressions.

NATO leaders must be on trial for war crimes. A hint...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbwAoo32zg

If you watch this video, you will see that NATO used FORBIDDEN cluster bombs and uranium bombs in Serbia. Put responsible on trial!

 

[Kulindahr]

NATO today is a tool in the (mainly) US hands to attack and do aggressions.

???

The military involvement by the U.S. in NATO actions has not been at U.S. instigation -- Europe asked Clinton to join in on Serbia, France asked NATO to join in on Libya. And whatever you want to argue about the former, the latter has nothing to do with aggression.

 

[zelenabanana]

ROFL... Europe asked Clinton. Oh boy... Aha, you mean those European Albanian lobbiest who ran the (how do you call it....) dinners to collect money for democrats when that idiot Holbruck shook hands with Albanian terrorists.

And so what old good Billy said? He so hard acceptted to join it? Right? I bet. Coz, he was busy that time... Hillary, Monica... so many ladies to serve + to think how to pump cash into military industry

Poor Billy...

There I agree... Once NATO turned back to France on Tunisia, now France came back to NATO and begs for help to turn it's dignity on EX colonies. And I am sick and tired of those who built it's rich states onto stealing from Africa, South America, Asia colonies. Aaaarrrrrrrrrrggghhh.

Sarkozy is the one to be bombed. He brutally fought Arabs in Paris as ministry of police. Then he brutally kicked out Gypsies of France. Remember?
Now he does agressions in North Africa.
Say something? Is that ok? Does he respect human rights?

Anyway, do you agree with me that NATO does crimes? And that Clinton and others must be on trial for civilian victimes?

Also, can you tell me, when USA will act on dictatorship in Saudia Arabia ?

 

[zelenabanana]

ps. Did Europeans beg USA to bring Arabs in Guantanamo and do crimes against prisoners ?

 

[Kulindahr]

ROFL... Europe asked Clinton. Oh boy... Aha, you mean those European Albanian lobbiest who ran the (how do you call it....) dinners to collect money for democrats when that idiot Holbruck shook hands with Albanian terrorists.

And so what old good Billy said? He so hard acceptted to join it? Right? I bet. Coz, he was busy that time... Hillary, Monica... so many ladies to serve + to think how to pump cash into military industry

Poor Billy...

There I agree... Once NATO turned back to France on Tunisia, now France came back to NATO and begs for help to turn it's dignity on EX colonies. And I am sick and tired of those who built it's rich states onto stealing from Africa, South America, Asia colonies. Aaaarrrrrrrrrrggghhh.

Sarkozy is the one to be bombed. He brutally fought Arabs in Paris as ministry of police. Then he brutally kicked out Gypsies of France. Remember?
Now he does agressions in North Africa.
Say something? Is that ok? Does he respect human rights?

Anyway, do you agree with me that NATO does crimes? And that Clinton and others must be on trial for civilian victimes?

Also, can you tell me, when USA will act on dictatorship in Saudia Arabia ?

I get it -- you prefer brutal dictatorships as long as NATO stays away. And if NATO comes, invited, to help someone, you call it aggression.

The US will act on the Saudi monarchy as soon as US citizens don't need any Saudi oil.

 

[Kulindahr]

ps. Did Europeans beg USA to bring Arabs in Guantanamo and do crimes against prisoners ?

I wasn't aware that was a NATO operation.

 

[zelenabanana]

I get it -- you prefer brutal dictatorships as long as NATO stays away. And if NATO comes, invited, to help someone, you call it aggression.

The US will act on the Saudi monarchy as soon as US citizens don't need any Saudi oil.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, there we go. Hypocrisy. Thank you for an honest answer.

So, I will say it again, thanks but no thanks.

You support Saudi Arabia, bomb Libya... You pay and trainee Osama Bin Laden, then he becomes your enemy No1... I am sick and tired of your dirty games and set ups

 

[zelenabanana]

BTW, here's the one of the boys you still support

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udWxUgXETdI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udWxUgXETdI[/ame]

Keep be hypocritical

You have forgot the ally Serbia from WW1 and WW2. Keep it... Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians are coming there to set you up

 

[JayHawk]

ps. Did Europeans beg USA to bring Arabs in Guantanamo and do crimes against prisoners ?

NOPE but PSSS the new I am gonna change it guy determined that it wasn't as bad as was made out to be politically and he kept it. But you go live on your own planet.

Kuli is correct with Saudi Arabia. And if you think politicl friends arent driven by other resource or economic means then again welcome to planet Zelen

Is it pretty telling that you have NOTHING to say regarding the brutal genocide in your own country. I suppose you thought Hitler was a Euro problem and we shoulda stayed outta that one too?

After Two world wars based off the fact that Europe had no idea how to deal with Europe and you thought somehow we were just gnna let you people do it again.

Get real. Demand justice in your own country and then play like adults with one another (and no adults don't kill other ethnicities simply because of their God)

But at least while it is for all the wrong reasons you have one thing right, NATO is past its prime especially now that Europe wants to be a quasi US by combining their currency and economic power.

Now if they would just stand behind one another fully and join forces militarily then we will have to renegotiate NATO in any event since a new entity with it's own rules is the result.

BTW this is out of sheer boredom. Your been spouting the same talking points for a long time on here.

 

[JayHawk]

In response to whomever suggested the UN was a huge waste of taxpayers money - i am inclined to agree, but only because it doesn't have the powers that would be handy, Nato always ends up being delegated to in the end. In fact, i think that is what Nato is probably being used as, the UN military wing, that would certainly help explain the other 11+ partner countries like Russia who have some military clout, if ever they used it in the right places, poor Georgia.

The UN is toothless and rarely as a group accomplishes anything.

I think it is like communism ...a great idea on paper.

 

[Tengilethos]

I just want to say again, I see no reason for several states in Europe not to spend that 2% of GDP on defense, and it is right when Secretary Gates calls us out for it. A strong NATO is in all our interests after all. And we have to compensate at least a part of the eventual cutbacks in the US military. But some of the hostility here surprises me. European states had generous social safety nets for quite some time, it was even a deliberate countermeasure to the social policies of the East European countries, which shared borders with us after all. Remember the words of one of your own generals: "There is no choice between being a communist on 1,500 calories a day and a believer in democracy on 1000 calories" (Lucius D. Clay) So we have had them for a long time, even when we spent much more on defense. And for example here in Germany our welfare systems are definitely less generous than they where before. So saying that we reduced our defense spending to "build/develop generous social safety nets" is a baseless claim. In my eyes this destroys an otherwise quite valid argument, that some NATO members are not fulfilling the (informal) commitments they made.