The Original Gay Porn Community - Free Gay Movies and Photos, Gay Porn Site Reviews and Adult Gay Forums

  • Welcome To Just Us Boys - The World's Largest Gay Message Board Community

    In order to comply with recent US Supreme Court rulings regarding adult content, we will be making changes in the future to require that you log into your account to view adult content on the site.
    If you do not have an account, please register.
    REGISTER HERE - 100% FREE / We Will Never Sell Your Info

    PLEASE READ: To register, turn off your VPN (iPhone users- disable iCloud); you can re-enable the VPN after registration. You must maintain an active email address on your account: disposable email addresses cannot be used to register.

is NATO still relevant?

part 4 of this german documentary abt propaganda of NATO and NATO lies

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR_xlhnSJEw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR_xlhnSJEw&feature=related[/ame]
 
Aha, so no matter NATO just have admitted that has HIT APARTMENT BUILDING AND KILLED CIVILIANS, it is Gadaffi's propaganda. Good.

No, because you hold to a conspiracy-theory view of the world in which the US is always evil and runs around "setting up" events so it can fight wars, and you don't provide documentation for your claims, it makes sense to believe you're buying Qadhafi's lies and propaganda.
 
No USA is so good, but why good USA is more in war than in peace and why in the last few decades 10s of wars were led and started by the USA? Any explonation? How come that all are bad just u r good and nobody comes to war in the USA, but thee USA goes to Vietnam, to Iraq, to Libya... Americans, GO HOME! Go to own yard!

And have you watched this GERMAN documentary about how much NATO lie? Or you don't like the truth :)?
 
No USA is so good, but why good USA is more in war than in peace and why in the last few decades 10s of wars were led and started by the USA? Any explonation? How come that all are bad just u r good and nobody comes to war in the USA, but thee USA goes to Vietnam, to Iraq, to Libya... Americans, GO HOME! Go to own yard!

And have you watched this GERMAN documentary about how much NATO lie? Or you don't like the truth :)?

How about paying attention to what people say, and getting off your black/white, tribal, conspiracy theory view of the world?
 
BTW what do you say of repeating NATO scenario and "mistakes" with civilian victims. 2 days ago NATO hit apartment building and has killed 9 civilians, yesterday NATO killed 15 civilians and among them 3 kids... In Serbia NATO killed thousands of civilians, all by "mistakes". As "mistakenly" Chinese Embassy was hit. NATO must invest into more sophisticated weapons... Talibans hit more precisely. ROFL.

You roll on the floor and laugh at death.

That really tells me all I needed to know.
 
How about paying attention to what people say, and getting off your black/white, tribal, conspiracy theory view of the world?

Look who's speaking. You see it white - black. As lord Owen said in one video I have posted here "Americans like to see black and white, good and bed side, cowboys and Native Americans"... I don't. I try to show all sides, but you never admit NATO does crimes, attack with no legal back, you even say for recent killing Libyan civilians, it is Gadaffi lie, no matter NATO itself admitted. NATO does crimes. NATO kills civilians. Stop that! GO HOME!
 
Zelena,

Let it go.

We get that you are a passionate Serb.

But you are a caricature of the Slavs.....nursing your hurts and desire for vengeance for generation after generation....hating your neighbours although you are all the same people with the same basic desires for peace and prosperity.

For heaven's sakes grow up. You've all had 2000 years to do it.

The Serbs do not have clean hands. The Croats do not have clean hands. The Bosnians do not have clean hands, The Albanians do not have clean hands.

You all would be far better off to create a peace and reconciliation effort and then get on with creating a stable and prosperous organization of states that make the best use of the spectacular resources and beauty of this area.

And stop manufacturing other demons and other states to blame.

Okey Dokey?

:=D::=D::=D::=D::=D::=D::=D::=D::=D:

This one was ignored and so It needs repeating at this point.
 
ROFL... you showed up you don't follow carefully, I had replied to it. Read it carefully mate.
 
But how come all of you ignore this German documentary on NATO lies and propaganda and NATO war crimes? Can anyone watch it and comment? For instance...
 
But how come all of you ignore this German documentary on NATO lies and propaganda and NATO war crimes? Can anyone watch it and comment? For instance...

These videos are disturbing. I just turned 15 at the time of the war, and sadly I don't remember much about the Kosovo War in the media at that time. But this documentation certainly makes me think. Just some informations: The ARD is the first television channel in Germany, state-sponsored but quite independent. They often bring serious and deep political analysis, so I don't doubt what they reported there. The translation is mostly quite good, apart from some minor mistakes.

But what do you want to hear? That NATO used propaganda? That is true, but in war everybody uses it. And could you please show the sources where NATO killed thousands of Serbian civilians? No serious organization reports these numbers, that is Serbian propaganda.

But this is off-topic anyway.
 
Every side in every war has a sob story to tell. Those that dont have the stomach to watch their loved ones dealt the same blow that they are dealing others loved ones is ...

well its the reason that we will never see an end to civil war and tribalism.
 
A very good piece on exactly this topic:

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/9244/over-the-horizon-nato-a-users-manual

It is worth noting, however, that protection of Libyan civilians through airstrikes sits so far outside NATO's founding purpose that the framers of the 1949 treaty that brought the alliance into existence would hardly recognize the mission. NATO is a tool that has been effectively repurposed since the end of the Cold War, but tools are not infinitely malleable. So while the alliance may not be the ideal tool for managing military intervention in Europe's "near abroad," that does not mean that the organization is -- or risks becoming -- useless. Instead of disparaging allies, it would make more sense for critics to consider what NATO can and cannot do, and adapt their expectations accordingly.

Nevertheless, by all indications, NATO cannot act as an "executive committee" of the trans-Atlantic community. This is partly because of design, but mainly because the goal is simply out of reach. The interests of the states of Europe and North America simply diverge too much to expect unanimity and commitment on security issues above the most basic kind found at the bottom and middle of the above pyramid. This is not necessarily an indictment of NATO, as no other extant organization can manage such operations either. But rather than browbeat recalcitrant NATO allies into supporting missions that hold no interest for them, we might aim to structure the alliance around goals that the members can consistently support.

If that means a NATO that is not primarily geared toward intervention in overseas civil wars, then so be it. NATO can provide a forum for the "boring" parts of Western defense cooperation, such as mutual training, high-level coordination and the resolution of compatibility and interoperability issues. NATO can continue to act in Eastern Europe as a hedge against Russian revanchism and intimidation, and also elsewhere as a facilitator of cooperative efforts like Operation Active Endeavour, geared around such problems as piracy, smuggling and disaster relief.



I am quoting too much already but this is especially good:

Indeed, there might be no more effective way of demonstrating Gates' point than to allow the Europeans to manage a military intervention without recourse to U.S. power. But such an approach also implies that when members' interests diverge from those of the U.S., NATO -- at least as it is now imagined -- might not be the best tool for the job.

Exactly this. It may seem heartless not to care about the Libyan rebels, but this would be the perfect moment to do just that, because there is (for those not in Libya) not much at stake. Imagine the US would not have helped and Britain and France ran out of ammo? The humiliation would be a real wake-up call and show us how much we should value having the US as an ally.

Then we could really make the whole thing working better. Reduce NATO back to the defensive alliance. Create a new organization that has binding quotas for spending and soldiers contributed. Let all those join who want, and escape the sclerotic constrains of NATO where the less enthusiastic members restrain the others because NATO decisions have to be unanimous.


You would have to admit that the social nets are a huge burden for your countries? I wish we carried such a burden for our people. Or at a minimum did what Singapore did and look at all the rest and then build the best health care system in the world. They only spend 3% of GDP on the system and 66% of that is private. I sincerely wish our feuding and stupidity would get out of the way for an effective program like that.

It depends. Our social policies are at least partly credited for the fact that unemployment hardly rose in Germany through the financial crisis, even though our recession was deeper than in the United States. We have recovered to pre-crisis GDP just this year, but unemployment is the lowest it has ever been since reunification. To be fair, it seems to me like your health care system is actually more wasteful and inefficient than ours, and consequently this is actually an advantage compared to the US, we spend less on health care than you do for nearly the same or even better results. What really makes us lose money is unemployment policies. Investing in health care can have nice results, pampering the unemployed is a bad idea.

But Europe is just to diverse to give you a definite answer to your question. States like Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands and Germany have generous social safety nets, but they have no reason not to meet their spending targets, they could afford it. And of course some of our "savings" by not investing enough in our military goes to our welfare systems. On the other hand I have seen a report that said that Germany spends more money investing in/supporting green measures like feed-in tariffs for solar energy than it spends on the armed forces. Are those social policies? Nevertheless others spend to much on social matters and on defense, like Greece who spends 3.2% of GDP on their military and is practically broke.
 
Look who's speaking. You see it white - black. As lord Owen said in one video I have posted here "Americans like to see black and white, good and bed side, cowboys and Native Americans"... I don't. I try to show all sides, but you never admit NATO does crimes, attack with no legal back, you even say for recent killing Libyan civilians, it is Gadaffi lie, no matter NATO itself admitted. NATO does crimes. NATO kills civilians. Stop that! GO HOME!

I'm honored to think that Lord Owen wrote an article about me.

Again: please read what other people have said, and stop the tribal crap. It's pretty evident from your posts that you regard your kind as people and no one else, or you wouldn't ignore what we say and repeat the same tired crap.

This is incredibly accurate:

Zelena,

Let it go.

We get that you are a passionate Serb.

But you are a caricature of the Slavs.....nursing your hurts and desire for vengeance for generation after generation....hating your neighbours although you are all the same people with the same basic desires for peace and prosperity.

For heaven's sakes grow up. You've all had 2000 years to do it.

The Serbs do not have clean hands. The Croats do not have clean hands. The Bosnians do not have clean hands, The Albanians do not have clean hands.

You all would be far better off to create a peace and reconciliation effort and then get on with creating a stable and prosperous organization of states that make the best use of the spectacular resources and beauty of this area.

And stop manufacturing other demons and other states to blame.

Okey Dokey?
 
Exactly this. It may seem heartless not to care about the Libyan rebels, but this would be the perfect moment to do just that, because there is (for those not in Libya) not much at stake. Imagine the US would not have helped and Britain and France ran out of ammo? The humiliation would be a real wake-up call and show us how much we should value having the US as an ally.

Then we could really make the whole thing working better. Reduce NATO back to the defensive alliance. Create a new organization that has binding quotas for spending and soldiers contributed. Let all those join who want, and escape the sclerotic constrains of NATO where the less enthusiastic members restrain the others because NATO decisions have to be unanimous.

Libya isn't just any other nation, though. It's been a cancer, a source of violence across Africa and elsewhere for decades. And it sits on NATO's edge. So when pro-democracy forces have a good shot at taking over, it isn't unreasonable for NATO to treat it as a security issue -- after all, shutting down a troublemaker, helping a neighbor, and hopefully ending up with a friendly neighbor on your border is beneficial to your own security.

But consider Syria, for contrast: they don't fund violence on a grand scale, and they aren't on NATO's edge. Even if NATO was flush with wealth and had military muscle to spare, intervening in Syria wouldn't be something related to NATO's security.


Getting away from the unanimity requirement is a tough one. It was a principle in the U.N. Security Council, for the "great powers", so no vote would pass when one or more of those powers stood in a position where it might be tempted to use military force to oppose the decision. This came to be called a "veto", but it's really a unanimity requirement. With NATO, other concerns arise, foremost of which is that if countries can be required to go along with an action against their wishes, you essentially have a government -- and no one wanted NATO to be a government.

It depends. Our social policies are at least partly credited for the fact that unemployment hardly rose in Germany through the financial crisis, even though our recession was deeper than in the United States. We have recovered to pre-crisis GDP just this year, but unemployment is the lowest it has ever been since reunification. To be fair, it seems to me like your health care system is actually more wasteful and inefficient than ours, and consequently this is actually an advantage compared to the US, we spend less on health care than you do for nearly the same or even better results. What really makes us lose money is unemployment policies. Investing in health care can have nice results, pampering the unemployed is a bad idea.

But Europe is just to diverse to give you a definite answer to your question. States like Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands and Germany have generous social safety nets, but they have no reason not to meet their spending targets, they could afford it. And of course some of our "savings" by not investing enough in our military goes to our welfare systems. On the other hand I have seen a report that said that Germany spends more money investing in/supporting green measures like feed-in tariffs for solar energy than it spends on the armed forces. Are those social policies? Nevertheless others spend to much on social matters and on defense, like Greece who spends 3.2% of GDP on their military and is practically broke.

I've seen a couple of articles crediting Germany's unemployment payments for a hefty part in the economic stability you've had. It kept money flowing from customers to stores, which keeps employment from getting worse. Actually the biggest problem for the program in the U.S. is how poorly funded it is; if it were run as an insurance program, even not-for-profit, it would have to collect far more than it presently does. On the federal level, it's essentially a welfare program -- I don't know what it is in Germany; are there payroll taxes to fund it?

Health care is a huge area I'm just going to pass on, save to say that it, too, is tied into the feedback loops that drive economies.

Are green measures social programs? Only if that's the only choice of where to put them. We need to get accustomed to having "taking care of our piece of land (and the world" as a category of spending. It comes with having a nation: together, as a social unit (willingly or unwillingly a part of it), the citizens of a country hold territory, and have in common the interest of keeping it healthy and useful. That doesn't need to be a function of the state; if we had a rational basis for our property systems it would be a corollary that could be run by an independent foundation. At the very least, all income to the state from the use of natural resources should go into a fund for taking care of green issues -- the first step toward getting them out of government hands.

Greece... I wonder how much of his GDP Alexander the Great spent on his military? :badgrin:
 
Greece... I wonder how much of his GDP Alexander the Great spent on his military? :badgrin:

Forced acquisitions from the treasuries of defeated armies ensured that Alexander's army was sufficiently well fed, well armed and more than adequately paid for their conquests. I suspect that Persia was the principle source of Alexander's financing arrangements.:D
 
Libya isn't just any other nation, though. It's been a cancer, a source of violence across Africa and elsewhere for decades. And it sits on NATO's edge. So when pro-democracy forces have a good shot at taking over, it isn't unreasonable for NATO to treat it as a security issue -- after all, shutting down a troublemaker, helping a neighbor, and hopefully ending up with a friendly neighbor on your border is beneficial to your own security.

But consider Syria, for contrast: they don't fund violence on a grand scale, and they aren't on NATO's edge. Even if NATO was flush with wealth and had military muscle to spare, intervening in Syria wouldn't be something related to NATO's security.


Getting away from the unanimity requirement is a tough one. It was a principle in the U.N. Security Council, for the "great powers", so no vote would pass when one or more of those powers stood in a position where it might be tempted to use military force to oppose the decision. This came to be called a "veto", but it's really a unanimity requirement. With NATO, other concerns arise, foremost of which is that if countries can be required to go along with an action against their wishes, you essentially have a government -- and no one wanted NATO to be a government.

I wasn't suggesting to do away with the unanimity requirement, sorry. What I meant that this is much less restricting when all participants are more aligned. If those who are reluctant to use their troops are not part of the organization, then vetoes should become less common. An "Alliance of the Willing", if you want. The only problem for me would be that Germany is unlikely to join such an alliance :cry:

I've seen a couple of articles crediting Germany's unemployment payments for a hefty part in the economic stability you've had. It kept money flowing from customers to stores, which keeps employment from getting worse. Actually the biggest problem for the program in the U.S. is how poorly funded it is; if it were run as an insurance program, even not-for-profit, it would have to collect far more than it presently does. On the federal level, it's essentially a welfare program -- I don't know what it is in Germany; are there payroll taxes to fund it?

Nearly everyone has to pay the national unemployment insurance. Both the employer and the employee pay half the rates of the insurance, currently 3% of your wages (down from 6.5% in 2006). If the national employment agency makes profits, the rates fall, if it loses money the federal government injects tax-money into it to cover the shortfall and they raise the rates. And you are right, the automatic stabilizers can be a huge boon to the economy when times are bad.

We invested heavily in a short work program, where employers cut the hours of their workers, and the federal government paid the workers 60% of their lost wages. This is obviously cheaper than paying them full unemployment benefits, and the firms retain their trained workers. And because we just had to wait for the Chinese to resume consuming all these nifty things we produce, there was a high chance that these measures would be only needed a relatively short time. In fact to qualify for such a program you have to show that the outlook of your business is positive and you only need this because of a temporary disturbance.

Are green measures social programs? Only if that's the only choice of where to put them. We need to get accustomed to having "taking care of our piece of land (and the world" as a category of spending. It comes with having a nation: together, as a social unit (willingly or unwillingly a part of it), the citizens of a country hold territory, and have in common the interest of keeping it healthy and useful. That doesn't need to be a function of the state; if we had a rational basis for our property systems it would be a corollary that could be run by an independent foundation. At the very least, all income to the state from the use of natural resources should go into a fund for taking care of green issues -- the first step toward getting them out of government hands.
Yes, the big problems is that for example the oil producers don't pay the true cost for the extraction of their goods, environmental damage is an externally that they don't have to worry about. They pass the costs on to the society, who either live in unhealthy environments and pay the social costs for climate change, or they invest in technology and adopt costly measures to save energy and reduce pollution.
 
Forced acquisitions from the treasuries of defeated armies ensured that Alexander's army was sufficiently well fed, well armed and more than adequately paid for their conquests. I suspect that Persia was the principle source of Alexander's financing arrangements.:D

I guess plunder, being acquired outside the borders, doesn't count in GDP.
 
Zelena, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but your credibility is shot.

This is because you refuse to admit that the Serbs have done anything wrong. In your little world, NATO and the Muslims have done all of the wrong, while Serbians have been completely innocent.

So I stopped reading your posts. Mostly.

You don't read carefully... About Srebrenica I wrote Muslims came and killed 3 500 Serbs during Christmas 1993. Mladic came in 1995. to liberate Serbs and yes, killed Muslims, but who started in 1993???

About NATO, do you deny NATO does agressions? Make crimes? Kill civilians? Do you admit NATO is wrong at least once?

If Serbs are bad and did bad to Albanians. Ok. Serbs are bad. But why then Albanians started war in Macedonia in 2000. as well? There are no Serbs or Milosevic. Can you explain?

If Serbs are bad. Ok, we are bad. Why Croats and Muslims had war? Why Croats crashed famous Muslim UNESCO protected bridge in Mostar, Bosnia? Why Mostar is today the splittest city in Europe on Muslim and Croatian side? Please, explain. (Serbs are the worst, ok, we agree :rolleyes: Now, please explain those other things about wars Croats - Muslims or Albanians - Macedonians. But you can mention to me why Slovenians ban Croats onto way to EU in last few months... it seems Slovenians and Croats are not Serbs, right? Are we guilty for that too).

Also I can say that you Americans see all other wrong Serbs, Cubans, Vietnamese, Libyans, Iraqi, Afganistans... Just you are good :rolleyes: and right :rolleyes:
:confused::confused::confused:
 
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,770949,00.html

Request from NATO
Berlin Willing to Supply Weapons for Libyan War

NATO is running out of munitions to use in the Libya conflict. Now the German government is willing to supply weapons to its allies, despite its fundamental opposition to the war, SPIEGEL ONLINE has learned. The defense minister has already approved a NATO request.

Yeah, happy. But still, some support is better than no support. *sigh*
 
Back
Top