Is the West made safer by bin Laden's death?

[Centexfarmer]

This article speaks to the matter of Pakistan's cooperation with the United States authorities in the matter of OBL.:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...in-ladens-hiding-place-all-along-2278028.html

Good article, and thank you for sharing.

I'm interested in this statement from that article:

But talking of caves, Bin Laden's demise does bring Pakistan into grim focus. For months, President Ali Zardari has been telling us that Bin Laden was living in a cave in Afghanistan. Now it turns out he was living in a mansion in Pakistan. Betrayed? Of course he was. By the Pakistan military or the Pakistan Inter-Services Intelligence? Quite possibly both. Pakistan knew where he was.

So here's the question: Why now?

One can assume that the Pakistanis have truly known about Bin Laden's whereabouts for years.

Technically they've been harboring a world renowned terrorist...for years now.

Meanwhile the people of Afghanistan, America's youth and treasury have been suffering, not to mention the BILLIONS of dollars of foreign aid that the American taxpayers have been giving them while we suffer here at home.

Was Bin Laden some sort of political treasury to the Pakistani Government?

Is Pakistan another one of those Governments that America is going to have to support financially, while we continue to spill our own blood in Afghanistan?

What's your take on it?

 

[tonyboy]

Yes..
The man was evil. he deserved to die.
The world is better off without him here.

 

[jackoroe]

I dis-agree.
As long as there is no war there, it will be good.

The absence of war does not mean there is peace.

 

[Telstra]

Good article, and thank you for sharing.

I'm interested in this statement from that article:



So here's the question: Why now?

One can assume that the Pakistanis have truly known about Bin Laden's whereabouts for years.

Technically they've been harboring a world renowned terrorist...for years now.

Meanwhile the people of Afghanistan, America's youth and treasury have been suffering, not to mention the BILLIONS of dollars of foreign aid that the American taxpayers have been giving them while we suffer here at home.

Was Bin Laden some sort of political treasury to the Pakistani Government?

Is Pakistan another one of those Governments that America is going to have to support financially, while we continue to spill our own blood in Afghanistan?

What's your take on it?

In Afghanistan, let the locals negotiate among themselves.
If necessary, let them divide into small countries and then pull out.

Keep on pin point assassination the bad guys if they are guilty.
In Pakistan, same thing ... pin point assassination if they are guilty.

 

[jackoroe]

Oh God.

The new mantra from the right.

Osama wasn't worth going after.... I've heard that about 100 times since Sunday by every right winger wanting to diminish the event because it has made the president they hate so utterly look good for a moment or two.

Sure you could make the argument that bin Laden posed no threat. In the same way I could make the argument that with his network and his motivational and organizational skills, nestled in among the Pakistani military, he represents an even more dangerous threat today than he did in 2001.

And the Foxian mantra now that the revolutions pushing for democracy may not be good because we may not like the results.

No, that would be the new mantra from the left about the right. What exactly had Bin Laden done since 9-11? What terrorist plot had he planned and executed? Cite us a couple of examples would you?

Let's make it easy for you. There were none. He was living among the allegedly unwitting Pakistanis for some years now, without a phone or even television. He used a courier for communications like the ancient Greeks did. Is that an efficient method of command and control? No it isn't.

It's a good thing he's gone. No argument. But it wasn't because he posed a threat that he's gone. It's payback for what he did on 9-11 and in other parts of the world. It was vengeance and I'm fine with that being the case. The left ia apparently struggling with some moral justification for doing what we did. They first manufactured a non existent gunfight. Then they lied about him using a woman as a shield. Now they are saying he went for a gun. Why all this nonsense? Just say we killed him because we could and be done with it. Grow some balls and own it!

In terms of democracy in the Middle East. How'd that work out for Iran? Remember the "students" rising up against the oppressive Shah? Just how free are they today? Are the religious nuts that run the country tolerant or oppressive? Think the Muslim Brotherhood will be much better in Egypt?

 

[Centexfarmer]

In Afghanistan, let the locals negotiate among themselves.
If necessary, let them divide into small countries and then pull out.

Keep on pin point assassination the bad guys if they are guilty.
In Pakistan, same thing ... pin point assassination if they are guilty.

Well...the Smedley Butlers' of the world are opposed to that type of American Foreign policy for one.

Apparently, under Obama, pin point assassinations have now become our defacto way to deal with those who oppose "American Imperialism."

Which you would think would give FOX NEWS, the War Hawks, and his detractors reason to love him.

 

[jackoroe]

I called it--- he's pro-Osama. We could even spin it the other way--- Osama shot his load in 2001 and, after Afghanistan, we had nothing to worry about. Those pro-Iraqi War fucks, like that mod there, just wanted to spend a bunch of money we don't have sending a bunch of younger generation folk to go die in its generation's Vietnam, all to go after Saddam Hussein for no good reason.

And as I linked to proof that he was pleased about Saddam's capture and/or death, he felt that the ends justified the means even though Saddam never ONCE posed a threat to us during Dubya's term and had nothing to do with 9/11. We had no business invading, tearing down, stomping on, and poorly reconstructing Iraq... but he bitches pathetically about a surgical strike team taking out the 9/11 mastermind.

It really is transparent, those people, those disgusting, pro-terrorist people, who've gone out of their way to ruin the lives of subsequent generations more than Osama ever dreamed, I bet. I mean, that's not counting about the domestic (refuses to pay their own bills)/government (ie US Patriot Act, one example among so, so many) side--- the severe damage alone wrought by that one optional war is devastating.

Back for more, I see. Pro-Osama? Yeah, right. More empty spin and baseless opinion.

Yes, I did support my country when the President and Congress said we should go to war. It's what Americans do. Particularly when all the intelligence was that he did posess WMD's. Were we right about Saddam having WMD's. No we weren't. But were we going to war to steal oil like the screwy left said? If we were, we've done a rather poor job of doing so. Was there an interest in that oil? Absolutely, just as there is in Libya now. Of couse we are killing people for humanitarian reasons and that's OK.

But your friends on the left caterwauled like the pussies they all are and failed to defund the war. They approved the surge that Bush asked for. They have the same ownership in Iraq as Bush, because they allowed it. They wanted the war for political reasons. As something to run on. They could care less about the poor grunts getting shot up.

Both parties have been responsible for running up the government tab to $14,000,000,000,000, but that doesn't fit with your world view, does it? You've had ample opportunity to repeal the "Patriot" act. How's that coming along? The answer is, the left doesn't care any more than the right. It's just another issue to run on and do nothing about, just like Gitmo. That's still open for business, isn't it? Yet there is no outrage because it's your guy in the White House. It's hypocrisy, nothing more.

Take your head out of that dark place and see the big picture. Support the left or the right, it doesn't matter. Neither side gives a rat's rear end about you me or anybody else. They are all only it in for themselves and their corporate sponsors. And we're all getting played like puppets because we let them.

 

[kallipolis]

Good article, and thank you for sharing.

I'm interested in this statement from that article:



So here's the question: Why now?

One can assume that the Pakistanis have truly known about Bin Laden's whereabouts for years.

Technically they've been harboring a world renowned terrorist...for years now.

Meanwhile the people of Afghanistan, America's youth and treasury have been suffering, not to mention the BILLIONS of dollars of foreign aid that the American taxpayers have been giving them while we suffer here at home.

Was Bin Laden some sort of political treasury to the Pakistani Government?

Is Pakistan another one of those Governments that America is going to have to support financially, while we continue to spill our own blood in Afghanistan?

What's your take on it?

Pakistan has many competing power centres that attempt to orchestrate government policy to suit their particular agendas. The President of Pakistan is one power base. The Prime Minister of Pakistan is another power base. The Parliament of Pakistan, yet another power base. Then there is the powerful interventionist role of the armed forces who are a state, within a state.

Pakistan's sinister military intelligence service is often at odds with its government's stated political objectives. The ISI is also factionalised into pro Western, and anti-Western camps that work against one another. We know that the ISI has for years supported limited Taliban activities in Afghanistan. We also know that the ISI has protected OBL for many years.

OBL ceased to be a serious item for The West for many years, and in more recent times we have noted the revolutionary fervour of the so called Arab Spring replacing him with a grass roots movement much more prepared to act on a national scale to change governments, and leaders who have held power for decades.

My father's (a retired diplomat) understandings gained from diplomatic chatter appear to support a Pakistan government, and Pakistan military general staff agreement to betray OBL and offer his head to the Americans with the proviso that the Pakistanis should be absolved of all involvement. A sort of Pontius Pilate washing of the hands.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Pakistan has many competing power centres that attempt to orchestrate government policy to suit their particular agendas. The President of Pakistan is one power base. The Prime Minister of Pakistan is another power base. The Parliament of Pakistan, yet another power base. Then there is the powerful interventionist role of the armed forces who are a state, within a state.

Pakistan's sinister military intelligence service is often at odds with its government's stated political objectives. The ISI is also factionalised into pro Western, and anti-Western camps that work against one another. We know that the ISI has for years supported limited Taliban activities in Afghanistan. We also know that the ISI has protected OBL for many years.

OBL ceased to be a serious item for The West for many years, and in more recent times we have noted the revolutionary fervour of the so called Arab Spring replacing him with a grass roots movement much more prepared to act on a national scale to change governments, and leaders who have held power for decades.

My father's (a retired diplomat) understandings gained from diplomatic chatter appear to support a Pakistan government, and Pakistan military general staff agreement to betray OBL and offer his head to the Americans with the proviso that the Pakistanis should be absolved of all involvement. A sort of Pontius Pilate washing of the hands.

Interesting.

I appreciate your sharing your personal perspective here.

That's too much information, I'm afraid, for the American public to take in.

I'm sure that the Obama Administration and Secretary of State Clinton are aware of.

I'd like to see a more positive pro-active change from the "Western Democracies" in regard to better dealing with these types of situations in the future in regard to terrorism, and perhaps we will.

 

[kallipolis]

Interesting.

I appreciate your sharing your personal perspective here.

That's too much information, I'm afraid, for the American public to take in.

I'm sure that the Obama Administration and Secretary of State Clinton are aware of.

I'd like to see a more positive pro-active change from the "Western Democracies" in regard to better dealing with these types of situations in the future in regard to terrorism, and perhaps we will.

The United States administration is well informed on the complicated nature of Pakistan's tribal rivalries, and competing political power bases; and plays its hand competently.

The American public mindset is much more black, and white in its understandings of international affairs. I note this on a daily basis on all the forums on this site.

We should appreciate that United States, and United Kingdom special forces have been, and continue to conduct military operations in the tribal areas straddling the Afghan/Pakistan border against Taliban factions.

Many Western leaders question the wisdom of intervening directly in the affairs of Afghanistan, and Pakistan when there is no clear power base in those countries that is able to translate Western long term interests into positive results.

Pakistan is a particular worry because of its status as a nuclear power, and long standing antipathy towards India (mutually reciprocated), also a nuclear power that also faces many internal political challenges

 

[chance1]

OMG

This post

If i wasnt on a crowded plane I would've cum

Jack - you rock

I nominate for post of the year

Question for u ......

While penning this were u:

Angry
Composed and thoughtful
One hand on little jack

Do tell

Back for more, I see. Pro-Osama? Yeah, right. More empty spin and baseless opinion.

Yes, I did support my country when the President and Congress said we should go to war. It's what Americans do. Particularly when all the intelligence was that he did posess WMD's. Were we right about Saddam having WMD's. No we weren't. But were we going to war to steal oil like the screwy left said? If we were, we've done a rather poor job of doing so. Was there an interest in that oil? Absolutely, just as there is in Libya now. Of couse we are killing people for humanitarian reasons and that's OK.

But your friends on the left caterwauled like the pussies they all are and failed to defund the war. They approved the surge that Bush asked for. They have the same ownership in Iraq as Bush, because they allowed it. They wanted the war for political reasons. As something to run on. They could care less about the poor grunts getting shot up.

Both parties have been responsible for running up the government tab to $14,000,000,000,000, but that doesn't fit with your world view, does it? You've had ample opportunity to repeal the "Patriot" act. How's that coming along? The answer is, the left doesn't care any more than the right. It's just another issue to run on and do nothing about, just like Gitmo. That's still open for business, isn't it? Yet there is no outrage because it's your guy in the White House. It's hypocrisy, nothing more.

Take your head out of that dark place and see the big picture. Support the left or the right, it doesn't matter. Neither side gives a rat's rear end about you me or anybody else. They are all only it in for themselves and their corporate sponsors. And we're all getting played like puppets because we let them.

 

[Telstra]

Well...the Smedley Butlers' of the world are opposed to that type of American Foreign policy for one.

Apparently, under Obama, pin point assassinations have now become our defacto way to deal with those who oppose "American Imperialism."

Which you would think would give FOX NEWS, the War Hawks, and his detractors reason to love him.

This is the only way to deal with non-state terrorists.
If that country harboring them, all you can do is to eliminate them how ever possible.

 

[rareboy]

No, that would be the new mantra from the left about the right. What exactly had Bin Laden done since 9-11? What terrorist plot had he planned and executed? Cite us a couple of examples would you?

Let's make it easy for you. There were none. He was living among the allegedly unwitting Pakistanis for some years now, without a phone or even television. He used a courier for communications like the ancient Greeks did. Is that an efficient method of command and control? No it isn't.

It's a good thing he's gone. No argument. But it wasn't because he posed a threat that he's gone. It's payback for what he did on 9-11 and in other parts of the world. It was vengeance and I'm fine with that being the case. The left ia apparently struggling with some moral justification for doing what we did. They first manufactured a non existent gunfight. Then they lied about him using a woman as a shield. Now they are saying he went for a gun. Why all this nonsense? Just say we killed him because we could and be done with it. Grow some balls and own it!

In terms of democracy in the Middle East. How'd that work out for Iran? Remember the "students" rising up against the oppressive Shah? Just how free are they today? Are the religious nuts that run the country tolerant or oppressive? Think the Muslim Brotherhood will be much better in Egypt?

His hands were all over the bombings in Spain and Britain.

He communicated by.......uh, oh, right. transferrable computer files that didn't have to get carried very far.

We'll find out how dangerous he still was soon enough. Or how dangerous he could have bee.

And grow up Jack.

Keeping one dictator in place...or in the case of Iran, the US bringing down a non-religious democracy in the 50's in order to out a puppet Shah dictator in its place turned out exactly as it only could for Iran and the west. It was only by continuing to stick up for the Shah that the US alienated the fledgling democracy in Iran before it became a theocracy.

So if the US can just try not to do that in other mid-east states, who knows but tat they might not emerge as allies rather than enemies and as secualr states instead of extremist religious states?

 

[EastMed]

Iran will be needed in any post-war political settlement in Afghanistan.
This, should it occur, may even save Pakistan from complete and utter implosion.

 

[jackoroe]

OMG

This post

If i wasnt on a crowded plane I would've cum

Jack - you rock

I nominate for post of the year

Question for u ......

While penning this were u:

Angry
Composed and thoughtful
One hand on little jack

Do tell

LOL. Glad I could rock your world.

It's just come to the point that I see left and right shouting at each other and ignoring their own shortcomings. Both sides have them and neither will admit it.

In the meantime, the powers that be are having a field day ass raping the very people who are supporting them. And we thank them for having done so.

Now Mr. Transparency has decided that we can't see Bin Laden's picture. Because he doesn't want to "Spike the football." Yet he's going to ground zero today for that very purpose . He knows full well that the Freedom of Information Act will ultimately ensure that pictures release. So, why doe he do it?

No brainer. Politics. He'll get about a weeks mileage out of this. Then he gets a second bite of the apple when a court orders him to release the picture. Hey, it's the way the game is played. But be honest about the fact that your playing a game when you do it. That's all I ask.

 

[jackoroe]

Never left.

Glad you admit.

Glad you warned me what the rest of your post is about.

No it isn't.

Here is how it happened: you support it because a Republican told you. All of the facts haven't really changed over the years--- it is why I haven't had a 180 on the matter. In fact, the only reason for you to have a 180 on this is because of one detail: a Democrat is in the White House.

Here I remain 100% firm on my support for self-determination. I don't understand how you think invading and nation-building Iraq was justifiable, when for so long it was about freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam, BUT bombing Gaddafi's forces down is somehow too much for you.

That's because Dubya politicized the phrase "nine-eleven" AND a massive effort made to paint anyone not for this optional war as being 'against the troops' or 'supporting the terrorists' or 'America--- love it or leave it'. How can you have forgotten all this when it happened over the last decade?

What a baseless partisan claim. You really are delusional about politics.

That's a generational issue, not a party issue--- I hold all of the Boomers responsible for leaving a broken country with an insurmountable debt and the expectation that they deserve their retirement paid for on top of all they've wrought.

There is outrage, but a broken economy beats out such ethical concerns. It isn't hypocrisy, it is distraction from the damage your ilk has done to this country.

I don't let them. Again, I wasn't a fool who supported the Patriot Act or DHS or Gitmo or Iraq or tax cuts or defunding education et al. I'm not the one who makes political conclusions based on partisan noise. That's all you. Heckuva job.

If you believe that someone who isn't in lockstep with you is a Bin Laden supporter, feel free to dwell in that twisted little world. I think the word "Loon" would describe anybody who felt that way adequately.

You can continue on complaining that its not your fault and that everybody is picking on you like you did in response to my fellow mod. Or you can act like a grownup and maybe even be treated like one and have an intelligent discussion, I certainly would welcome it. You were, at one point, a very good poster who could engage in thoughtful debate instead of the partisan tripe you've posted most recently.

Let's get something straight from the get go. I don't support anything because anybody tells me to. And for you to assume that I do, without any factual basis yet again, is patently false.

I did not support the DHS as you've suggested, you are wrong. I did not support the Patriot Act, especially considering the fact that no one bothered to read the damned thing prior to voting on it. You're wrong again. In fact I would wonder why it hasn't been repealed, except that the answer is obvious. Neither side wants to because it suits their purposes, not the people's best interests. I mean for fuck sakes, warrants without a judges approval? Anybody in Congress read the Constitution? I also didn't support Bush's runaway spending or giving prescription benefits to people without paying for it. I obviously don't approve of Obama pissing money away as fast as it can be printed. That's not partisan, that's called reasonable.

Rather than just accept things as they are, try questioning them. Ask why politicians do things that they do and I mean both sides. Or you can keep on painting yourself into the corner with the partisan paintbrush you've been given by your masters. Broaden your horizons. It's work, but it's well worth it.

 

[BostonPirate]

The absence of war does not mean there is peace.

but it does mean a whole lot less dead bodies.-

 

[jackoroe]

I laid out in clear terms how I see you as being pro-Osama. If you can't have the balls to deal with those arguments, then this sideshow with name-calling isn't going to work.

That's a lie,

Didn't say that.

This refresh your memory?

Tell that to that mod, because that is all he is doing.

You don't seem to have welcomed it all that often before OR after you became a mod.

Baseless opinion.

All you've posted is partisan tripe. Ever. It doesn't change anything to play nice and listen to you throw out a lie and the run away when others give the scrutiny you fail to do.

See above.

Except for the evidence from your posts, that is.

You've provided evidence of nothing. But continue to insist that you have.

So is 'jackoroe' a Navajo word for 'hypocrite'? A textbook example of not practicing what you preach.

Baseless opinion, yet again.

I'm not a member of a party, I don't care about party politics. That's your generation's thing, and your faux libertarianism is quaint, but it is evident where your loyalties lie, hence the criticism of your culpability for all that Republicans have done wrong. It is my sincere hope that generation x isn't so full of x-traitors that they can get past this garbage when they inherit this broken country and that shit-ton of debt and that burden of having to deal with an AARP full of boomers.

In the meantime, take your own advice--- I have to get ready to go to that big party at Ground Zero where all the real Democrats are happy to go, where we'll have cake and ice cream and celebrate how Obama has already won re-election.

Deny it one paragraph then admit it in the next.

I take it back, you really aren't all that good a poster. Enjoy your evening in NYC. Not that your actually going.

 

[BostonPirate]

I think some of my progressive and liberal friends need to take a step back and give Jackoroe a bit of a break.

He deserves no more or less anger because of his mod status for having an opinion than any other member. We always say we want the mods to participate in discussion and then gang up on them when they do.

Jackoroe gives respect as it is given to him, I have noticed.

I have grown to like everyone here, even the conservatives that I give endless grief to, and I think as members we need to remember they are people with an opinion.

sorry had to say that. I know I have earned a hailstorm of shit from a few of you by saying that, but it seems that we need to re evaluate whether something has become personal or heated debate of the topic.

 

[jackoroe]

...

He's still on the list for politicizing Osama's death, only because he admits to coming up with that idea without being told.

Jackoroe, I'm sorry that by the logic of those with whom you too often side you inevitably found yourself as labelled pro-Osama. Luckily for you I've always found that logical fallacy to be definitely untrue, and I really suspected that you would call it out. I don't think you are or were a terrorist or for the terrorists. I do think that you are displaying grossly obvious hypocrisy and espousing criticisms that are beyond the pale. And I sense that it is not because you can't see this fact, but that you are utterly refusing to see it.

There you go. I knew you had it in you. Thank you!