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It really makes me mad when Jewish people...

.................... I came to a conclusion that it's no worth arguing or debating because you won't change minds ..................................

This has always been my opinion; however logical and valid you believe your argument to be you will not change someone's beliefs.

BUT, by stating your logical and valid argument you may just convince someone who has not yet made up their minds and is still evaluating the different points of view he is hearing.

Perhaps this is sufficient reason for not saying "forget it" and continuing to state your beliefs and the reasons behind them.
 
F22-Raptor, many thanks for the long post about "Palestinians". I've posted over and over in this forum that "Palestinian" merely meant "a resident of the mandated territory of Palestine", and that there is thus no actual "Palestinian people", but I've been ridiculed and dismissed as ignorant -- when the facts are out there to be found.

Beyond that:

Words fail me.

Rachel weeps for her children.

Amen.

I'm Israeli. Human beings throughout history have shown their most inner ugliness through acts like colonialism, slavery, racism, imperialist wars, etc. The Holocaust happens to be one single event that remains in our memories so deeply because of its grand scale, because it happened not too long ago, and also because substantial German citizenry stood by in silence as it happened. To me, thats the biggest tragedy, that people should remain silent or indifferent.

And the Holocaust is the only one that was set up like an assembly-line system, systematically stripping people of their property down even to tooth fillings, squeezing from them their last ounce of labor, degrading their humanity until finally taking their lives. It wasn't just genocide, it was a cold, calculated attempt at annihilation of personhood. Where genocide is a declaration "these people shouldn't be allowed to live", the Holocaust was one of "these aren't people; they have no right to live".

But that is the point..Judaism is a religion therefore there is no such thing as the Jewish people..might as well talk of the Catholic or Protestant people:confused:

No. I recall a phrase from a college course, to the effect that while most people have a religion, Judaism is a religion that has a people.

Just curios.

I think you meant "curious". :D

No, Jews didn't come there and take away lands from anyone, more like they were paying for swamps from the Ottoman empire and building farming villages that attracted Arab influx from neighboring regions. Today's left love to create victims from the Palestinians, who would have a long time ago had their own state that would have been larger if only like the rest of the Arab world they would not be preoccupied with Islamic hate towards Jewish sovereignty. There was no occupation in 1920's 30's but Palestinians were just as crafty in spilling Jewish blood as they are today. Hebron massacre of 1929 and earlier ones are just an example.

When European Jews began heading to the Holy Land under the expectation that the British would be honorable and fulfill their declarations, they bought land, they didn't steal it. Arabs laughed at these newcomers, who paid good money for "worthless" land.
In fact the first time Jews took land without legal payment was after the 1948 Arab attempt at genocide. In the aftermath, Arabs who'd trusted the invaders and found themselves locked out of a country they had pretty much abandoned, were left with no way to assert any claim. Israelis, both Arab and Jewish, along with Christians and others, took what had been abandoned.
And all those Israelis found that little had changed: their anti-Jewish Arab neighbors still made war on them.
 
They've gotten more shit throughout history than any other group of people. They were blamed for the death of Christ, blamed for the Black Plague, blamed for poisoning wells, drinking baby blood, secretly ruling the world, destroying Germany from within, etc etc. The list goes on.

They were hated for running banks and being money-lenders in the Middle Ages -- after they were forced into those occupations because Christians weren't allowed to do them, and Jews were forbidden to do most common occupations

Jews have invariably made good citizens -- and easy targets. Under Hitler, trusting, they gave up their firearms, and thus under Hitler they were turned into sheep (one aspect the movie didn't pass on is that Schindler stored up illegal firearms for those on his list so they'd have a chance to die with dignity, standing up for themselves). They have tended to amass wealth -- and been stripped of it. They have done great scholarship -- and not been credited for it.

In the U.S., they've been accused of everything from the death of JFK to the toppling of the twin towers to the election of GWB.

Ive never heard about 6 million other people from a certain group that were torn apart from their loved ones, put into camps, where they were starved, tortured, beaten, treated like complete animals, and died a horrible death.

can any one tell me?? Jews Have gone through so much, and for what? for killing a complete lunatic thousands of years ago who thought he was the son of god...Thank you..

BTW, on a history channel show a while back a figure of seven or eight million was mentioned, covering those Jews who were shot on the spot for non-cooperation, resisting having their property stolen, etc.

Many Jews have been killed for making the kind of absolutely stupid statement that you just posted.
 
I'm not surprised of what you are saying here because like any assimilated Jew around the world you don't have a deep knowledge or value the history of Jewish people and the connection to land of Israel.

Repeating a lie 100 million times won't turn it into a historic truth. There was never a Palestinian state or any form of sovereignty ever in history.
Not the Babylonians, not the Romans, not the Persians, not the Arabs had ever conquered Israel and turn it into a seperate sovereignty. Jerusalem was never a capital of any conquering country. Non of the Arab world has ever conquered and turned Israel into a country. The closest the Muslim world got into Israel was when first the Mamluks and later the Ottoman Turks reached Jerusalem. Arafat the "peace loving" father of the Palestinian nation was Egyptian born who all the years claimed that he was born in Jerusalem. Before the 1967 war, Palestinians identified themselves with the Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrians where they had originally migrated from.

The people who call themselves Palestinians today are not ethnically different from any other Arabs because there was never a "Palestinian People." When the Peel Commission was in session the Mufti of Jerusalem and other Arab leaders at the time were angry and refused to be called as "Palestinian Arabs" because Palestinian was an insult to Arabs. The British originally referred to Jews as Palestinians and Arabs as just that Arabs.

The word Palestinian came about when the Romans conquered Israel in 70ad, murdered and exiled 4 million Jews and renamed Israel to Falestina after the Philistine peoples of the ancient Agian Greek Islands, who fought with the Jewish tribes and King David as recounted in the Tanach. Renaming Israel to Falestina was done in an attempt to erase any connection between Jews and Israel, which seems to have an affect till today.
The Romans coined the Judea Caputa coin as an insult to the Jews, and there is plethora of archeology of this today, which continues to terrify Palestinian lmams because they have to answer the lies that Jews are "foreign" in "Muslim lands."

Jewish presence in Israel/Palestine is not since 1948, or because of the Holocaust, but since thousands of years there have always been Jewish revival in their ancient homeland. Hebron in the West Bank and Jerusalem always held majority of Jewish populations going back pre and post Ottoman rule of the region. The only time Hebron was Jew free in history was when the Arabs slaughtered every man, woman and child, in the Hebron massacre of 1929, but of course they were just resistance fighters fighting an "occupation."

If it were not for the Jewish farmers starting to buy out swamps of Tel Aviv and other abandoned, and desolate lands from the Ottomans, and the wealthy Arab landlords, the Arab migration into Israel/Palestine would never have happened. Today's Palestinian ancestors migrated in droves FROM Syria, Egypt, and what is today's Jordan, because it was the Jews who were rebuilding and cultivating lands.

People can recreate history and compare Jews to the British or any other colonialists all the want, but the fact is that there was never a mass ethnic cleansing, nor land grabs of Palestinian lands. The Jews are not the Afrikaners in a foriegn land, more like the Aboriginals reclaiming and rebuilding their homeland that gave them their history, religion, language and culture.

Go dare say to a Jew of a Polish, Russian, Iranian, Dominican, Afghan descent that they have no right to belong in Israel. 100 years ago Europe was screaming Jews go back to Palestine and now you are screaming Jews go out of Palestine to the same countries like Russia and Poland that never accepted them, and always treated them as foreigners.

The only reason modern state of Israel is an unprecedented success is because the Jews know what home smells and feels like again; they know what's at stake and what the world thinks about them. This is the reason why only in Israel will you see a fathers, sons, and daughters respond in overwhelming majorities when duty calls.

The Palestinians can continue to self destruct living on broken dreams of hate. It is up to them to decide when they want to live in a functioning country and for the future of their children. No other group in the world has gotten so much financial and political support like the Palestinians do, and they continue on the pass of self destruction. No other "refugee" group has a separate UN agency allocated to them, and the Palestinians are not even the largest group.
Chechen, Afghans, Burmese, and millions in Africa continue to live tents and wear rag tag clothes, while Palestinians run around in designer jeans and Calvin Klein t shirts with their Molotov cocktails, AK47s and plethora of rockets and bombs.


And what makes you think that today's Jews are all descendents of Biblical Hebrews? If they were, they'd probably all look like Arabs and particularly Bedouins, who remain the more pure blooded Semites. Read my posts above about our ethnic and racial divisions.

You keep talking about sovereignty, as if the idea of a nation state is ancient, it is a very modern concept. Israel was only one of many many empires/kingdoms that have ruled and conquered the land of Palestine, and that only for about 600 years. Ancient Hebrews were not indiginous to Palestine, they were also migrants to Palestine, from Iraq. Stop making silly assertions to make it sound like all Jews are Middle Eastern. We are absolutely not one "race" or "ethnicity". We wouldn't have so much racism within the Jewish community if it wasn't so.
 
So what causes the suicide bombing, Palestinian Islamic extremism and current rocket attacks into is Israel?

What causes the hostility from the surrounding nations and Iran's president call for Israel to be destroyed etc?

Its called 50 years of illegal occupation and oppression.
 
And what makes you think that today's Jews are all descendents of Biblical Hebrews? If they were, they'd probably all look like Arabs and particularly Bedouins, who remain the more pure blooded Semites. Read my posts above about our ethnic and racial divisions.

You keep talking about sovereignty, as if the idea of a nation state is ancient, it is a very modern concept. Israel was only one of many many empires/kingdoms that have ruled and conquered the land of Palestine, and that only for about 600 years. Ancient Hebrews were not indiginous to Palestine, they were also migrants to Palestine, from Iraq. Stop making silly assertions to make it sound like all Jews are Middle Eastern. We are absolutely not one "race" or "ethnicity". We wouldn't have so much racism within the Jewish community if it wasn't so.

All Jews are by definition descendants of ancient Hebrews -- it's the line of descent that makes a Jew.
Except: provision was made for conversion, and there have been periods of substantial conversion to Judaism, e.g. the first century in the Roman Empire, when several million people became Jews.
Provision was also made for children of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish father; Leviticus says the children are Jews. Similarly, there was precedent for Jewish men, when there weren't enough Jewish women, to take non-Jewish wives, rendering them and their children Jews.
Most of those who converted likely married into the community, or their children did, so within a generation or two after a conversion, everyone was an 'ethnic' Jew.
Except: that by the nature of its welcoming faith, and that faith being very much an ethnic one, the concept of ethnicity itself was changed. New blood could enter in, and in almost every generation since the Maccabees certainly did, sometimes in trickles, others in waves. But what counted for Jewish ethnicity was not even a predominance of the "tribal" or patriarchal bloodline, but its presence. Someone with 100%, or 50%, or 34%, or 12%, 8%, 1%, or 0.0001% of the blood of Judah, Levi, or Benjamin -- those almost exclusively the ones known -- or of the other ancient tribes, can be "ethnically" a Jew, by the simple expedient of having a Jewish other... who herself will have twice your percentage.
As far as I know, it's the planet's only instance of a welcoming ethnicity; it's definitely the only one which has been so welcoming that some Jews are jet black and others are as pale as humans come.

Meanwhile, thinking inside Israel -- there were divisions in Israel, violent ones, before they were hardly established as a people. Now that the surface of the Jewish people is nearly as colorful as Joseph's cloak, is it surprising there are more? It's tragic, though, because they, like Joseph, have been given a great gift, but like his brothers, are full of jealousy and fighting.

And don't you all get picked on enough, by outsiders?
 
Its called 50 years of illegal occupation and oppression.

Let's see:

in 1922 Palestine was set out as a homeland for the Jewish people -- the whole thing:

180px-BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

In 1921, though, the British, contrary to their own promises and the intent of the League of Nations even then being worked into final form (with British knowledge), betrayed their declaration of 1917 and the intent of the League, and sliced off the eastern portion of their mandate. This they called "Transjordan", which had been the unofficial designation already. Since the British had already violated that trust, the League excluded Transjordan from the promised Jewish homeland. It was at this point the responsibility of the British to facilitate Jewish emigration. They lived up to that responsibility unevenly, and in 1946 the British wanted out of the administration of that portion of Palestine, and the U.N. relieved them of the mandate.

That wasn't enough for the Arabs, who pressured the U.N. into cutting Palestine in two yet again, thus betraying the trust they had willingly taken on from the defunct League of Nations:

327px-UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png

That wasn't enough, either; when the British Mandate ended, they attacked. They had the aid of Arab residents of the land who had been (falsely) convinced that their land would be stolen if Israel became a nation -- Arabs who had already been revolting against the British and attacking Jewish Palestinians since 1921. Indeed, the war began before that, when the Jewish residents accepted the U.N. plan, but none of the Arabs, either local power groups or nations, did. In fact, the Arabs at the time rejected U.N. authority to have anything to do with the situation. Even before the British mandate ended, Arab groups both locally and in surrounding countries began terrorist operations.
The Israelis won, and drove out their would-be murderers. The Arab nations which had been part of the genocide attempt refused at that point to aid the Arabs in Palestine, and coldly abandoned them -- except where they annexed territory taken by force of arms.

So if we're talking illegal, occupation, you have to mean the areas of Palestine not part of the State of Israel, held by rebels and terrorists.
 
No, all Jews are of single origin, who were forced to migrate around the world over thousand years. Jewish presence in Israel is not just 600 years as you claim, but 3,300 years, with 1200 of autonomy and semi-autonomy under Roman rule, King Herod etc.

If you had read my post above carefully, you'd comprehend that I did not say that our presence in Palestine is 600 years old, I said Palestine throughout history has been conquered and ruled by many different empires/peoples/rulers, out of which, Hebrews happen to be one, who's rule lasted about 600 years. And don't assume anything about me, I am not an Israeli secularist, almost 70% of Israelis are secular, but I happen to actually come from an Orthodox practicing family.
 
The difference between the Holocaust and Rwanda, Bosnia or the Armenian genocide is simple; the other conflicts started over disputes of lands. The Jews living in 35 European countries were not instigating secessions or independence movements in Europe. Armenians or the Bosnians were in historic ongoing conflicts. Turks were not initiating elaborate plans to purge the world of the entire Armenian race.

When the Hutus killed the Tutis it was nothing close in intent of the Holocaust. The Tutis had political escape as long as they switched sides, the Jews never had an option, no matter what hat they wore or what country they lived in.

Interesting debate.

I wonder if there would still be so much anti-semitism out there if the state of Israel as we know it hadn't been created. As long as it remains a bone of contention - eternity, I'm guessing - there will always be conflict. However, the Holocaust during the 1930s and 40s and the current dispute over borders and land-ownership rights are two very separate issues, and should be remembered as such.

As for the Hutu-Tutsi thing, it was no different to the original Holocaust, where one group of individuals (Hitler's crowd and the Hutus) with their own set of beliefs and ideals attempted to destroy the other (Jews and Tutsis).


DISCLAIMER: I'm going to say this next bit as carefully and politely and delicately as I can manage, since I don't want to cause unnecessary additional strife in here. Please see these views as ideas and not as an anti-semitic flaming rant, which is not at all what I intend it to be.

As for anti-semitism... is there such a thing as semitism?

South African Jews tend to stick very much together and tend to avoid all things non-Jewish. If you find a Jewish businessman here, his lawyer, doctor, accountant, dentist etc will usually all be Jewish too. My mom works for a two Jewish guys and this is exactly how their business is run, right down to the firm who handles their internet and email requirements. I have Jewish friends who tend to patronise primarily Jewish-owned stores and not only for specialist stuff, like a Kosher deli, but for everything.

I personally think that can create an image of reverse-racism, almost like anything not Jewish is not good enough. I wonder how much that sort of thing can foster anti-Semitism.

In .za, if a white businessman basically preferred dealings with only other white people he would be branded a racist - how is that any different from a Jewish person dealing almost exclusively with Jews? In England at the moment, the government is pushing for stronger integration amongst immigrants so you don't have this kind of intra-national exclusivity, so you don't have a Little Warsaw in the middle of London and a Little Calcutta in the heart of Manchester and so that everyone retains some cultural identity while taking on a bigger communal one - being English, in this case.

Am I entirely on the wrong track here, or are all these things not too different from each other at the end of the day?

-d-
 
Let's see:

in 1922 Palestine was set out as a homeland for the Jewish people -- the whole thing:

180px-BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

In 1921, though, the British, contrary to their own promises and the intent of the League of Nations even then being worked into final form (with British knowledge), betrayed their declaration of 1917 and the intent of the League, and sliced off the eastern portion of their mandate. This they called "Transjordan", which had been the unofficial designation already. Since the British had already violated that trust, the League excluded Transjordan from the promised Jewish homeland. It was at this point the responsibility of the British to facilitate Jewish emigration. They lived up to that responsibility unevenly, and in 1946 the British wanted out of the administration of that portion of Palestine, and the U.N. relieved them of the mandate.

That wasn't enough for the Arabs, who pressured the U.N. into cutting Palestine in two yet again, thus betraying the trust they had willingly taken on from the defunct League of Nations:

327px-UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png

That wasn't enough, either; when the British Mandate ended, they attacked. They had the aid of Arab residents of the land who had been (falsely) convinced that their land would be stolen if Israel became a nation -- Arabs who had already been revolting against the British and attacking Jewish Palestinians since 1921. Indeed, the war began before that, when the Jewish residents accepted the U.N. plan, but none of the Arabs, either local power groups or nations, did. In fact, the Arabs at the time rejected U.N. authority to have anything to do with the situation. Even before the British mandate ended, Arab groups both locally and in surrounding countries began terrorist operations.
The Israelis won, and drove out their would-be murderers. The Arab nations which had been part of the genocide attempt refused at that point to aid the Arabs in Palestine, and coldly abandoned them -- except where they annexed territory taken by force of arms.

So if we're talking illegal, occupation, you have to mean the areas of Palestine not part of the State of Israel, held by rebels and terrorists.

Thats if we were to assume that the British Empire has a right to decide which ethnic cleansing if permissible and which is not. And FYI, according to international law, all occupied terroritories are illegal.
 
I personally think that can create an image of reverse-racism, almost like anything not Jewish is not good enough. I wonder how much that sort of thing can foster anti-Semitism.

Many non-local communities are kind of insular in their own fashion. In helping those of their common background, they help support and foster their own kind. In many ways, this is necessary to maintain a community of people from the same backgrounds, especially in a foreign place. People get rather clannish or stick to cultural or language groups. I don't think it is just limited to the Jewish community near you. People know and understand you better in such cases. However it is detrimental to your relationships outside your particular clique/set/peer group/ethncity etc... if they do exist.
 
1 Only the Jews speak Hebrew out of 22 Middle Eastern countries, and the entire world. People identify themselves through a common language.
2. Jews share their own unique religion that no other nation shares because Jews never spread Judaism through Crusades, or by sword of Mohamed.
3 Jews around the world share the same customs and holidays that just like any ethnic group or a nation creates over history.
4. Jews had their own justice/jurisprudence system which influenced many Western legal systems.
5. Jews had a Monarchy King Saul, King David, King Salomon, of which traces of archeology are well preserved.
6 Jews share a common unique calendar that was developed in Israel, thousands of years ago.
7. Do I need to to mention that every Jewish community around the world can trace back their migration back to Israel.
8. The bible, Tanach, and plethora of other literature are unique to Jewish arts as developed by a unique people.

Just because Jews come in different colors and culutral backgrounds, doesn't mean they are not a unique people. Stop thinking in terms of pure Arian race model. Not all Iranians are dark and hairy, there are many blond hair and blue eyed Iranians. Not every Russian, American or Indian get along and live in harmony; every ethnic group has divisions and classless, it doesn't mean Jews are any different or should be viewed through double standard.

Two points to note:

Language and ethnicity are not inherently intertwined. Learning a language from your neighbourhood and being able to speak it fluently does not mean you are from the same ethnicity. By claiming that only Jews can speak Hebrew is a fallacy. You can say that the majority of Hebrew speakers are Jewish though. This doesn't automatically make all speakers of Hebrew Jewish.

The Jewish religion, Judaism, is cultural, and thus a social thing. Even though it isn't spread by conquest and subjugation, it can be spread by people having taken up non-Jewish spouses (i.e. racially different, whether black, caucasion, far east asian (yes there are reports of Chinese Jews I've heard of), etc) and transmitting the culture through a family setting in their offspring. These mixed race children become jewish because of Jewish ancestry, but they also have another ancestry which is non-Jewish, but is foresaken in favour of a decision by the parent to bring up their child in the Jewish culture. So you have to distinguish between race and culture too. These are also not intertwined.

Tell me how different is modern Jewish claim to nationhood tied to its culture and holy books any different from claiming that the Romans once ruled parts of Britain, therefore all modern Romans descended from the ancient romans can claim sovereignty over England. The lands of Canaan were given by your God to the Hebrew speaking Israelites, but ancient England was conquered by the Latin speaking Romans. Would it be ludicrous for modern italians today to claim England as their own? Can sovereignty really be established by precedent from a holy book and cultural claims?
 
Forget complicated debates. Some of us think simply and to the point.

Israel is a liberal, diverse democracy that DOES give Arabs the right to vote, lets gays live in peace, has freedom of the press, the list goes on.

The Arab states are oppressive, murder gays, sponsor terrorism (Against the US and to some degree Europe), and raise our oil prices.

Israeli leaders do not advocate the mass murder of Arrabs, yes there are a few extremists but they are widely discredited. On the other hand leaders of major Muslim nations (Iran) advocate nuking Israel.

So the bottom line: Israel isn't perfect but it sure beats the Arabs and Iranians. For gays, for the west, for sane people, for freedom.
 
Two points to note:

Language and ethnicity are not inherently intertwined. Learning a language from your neighbourhood and being able to speak it fluently does not mean you are from the same ethnicity. By claiming that only Jews can speak Hebrew is a fallacy. You can say that the majority of Hebrew speakers are Jewish though. This doesn't automatically make all speakers of Hebrew Jewish.

The Jewish religion, Judaism, is cultural, and thus a social thing. Even though it isn't spread by conquest and subjugation, it can be spread by people having taken up non-Jewish spouses (i.e. racially different, whether black, caucasion, far east asian (yes there are reports of Chinese Jews I've heard of), etc) and transmitting the culture through a family setting in their offspring. These mixed race children become jewish because of Jewish ancestry, but they also have another ancestry which is non-Jewish, but is foresaken in favour of a decision by the parent to bring up their child in the Jewish culture. So you have to distinguish between race and culture too. These are also not intertwined.

Tell me how different is modern Jewish claim to nationhood tied to its culture and holy books any different from claiming that the Romans once ruled parts of Britain, therefore all modern Romans descended from the ancient romans can claim sovereignty over England. The lands of Canaan were given by your God to the Hebrew speaking Israelites, but ancient England was conquered by the Latin speaking Romans. Would it be ludicrous for modern italians today to claim England as their own? Can sovereignty really be established by precedent from a holy book and cultural claims?

Precisely my point, and also, I've said above, "Jewish" rule in Palestine lasted about 600 years, and it was only 1 of many many different conquerors/rulers of Palestine/Canaan in its more than 6000 years of recorded history. This shows the various rulers of Palestine/Canaan:

1 Prehistoric Period
1.1 Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1000000 - 5000 BC)
1.2 Epipalaeolithic Period
1.3 Neolithic Period 8500–4300 BCE
1.4 Chalcolithic Period 4300–3300 BCE


2 Ancient Near East
2.1 Canaanite Period (Bronze Age) 3300–1200 BCE
2.1.1 Early Canaanite Period (Early Bronze Age) 3300–2300 BCE
2.1.2 Middle Canaanite Period (Middle Bronze Age) 2300-1550 BCE
2.1.3 Late Canaanite Period (Late Bronze Age) 1550–1200 BCE

2.2 Jewish/Hebrew Bible period
2.2.1 Monarchy Period (Iron Age II) 1000–586 BCE
2.2.1.1 Divided Monarchies of Judah and Israel, Moab, Amon, and Philistia (Iron Age IIB), 925–722 BCE
2.2.1.2 Monarchy of Judah and Edom/Neo-Assyrian Period (Iron Age IIC) 722–586 BCE
2.2.2 Neo-Babylonian Period (Iron Age III) 586–539 BCE

2.3 Persian Period 539-333 BCE

3 Classical Period
3.1 Hellenistic Period 333–165 BCE
3.2 Maccabean/Hasmonean Period 165–63 BCE
3.3 Roman Period 63 BCE–330 CE
3.3.1 Early Roman Period 63 BCE–70 CE
3.3.2 Late Roman Period I 70–135 CE
3.3.3 Late Roman Period II 135–220 CE
3.3.4 Late Roman Period III 220–330 CE
3.4 Byzantine Period 330–638 CE

4 Islamic Period
4.1 Arab Caliphate Period 638–1099 CE
4.1.1 Umayyad Period 638–750 CE
4.1.2 Period of Abbasids, Ikshidids, Fatimids, Seljuks etc 750–1099 CE
4.2 Crusader Period 1099–1244
4.2.1 Kingdom of Jerusalem Period 1099–1187
4.2.2 Ayyubid Period 1187–1244
4.3 Mamluk Period 1244–1517
4.4 Ottoman Period 1517-1917

5 Modern Period
5.1 British Mandate Period 1917–1948
5.2 State of Israel: 1948 to present

(Wikipedia)


I'm Jewish and I know and understand the religious attachment that many Jews may have to this land, but an overwhelming majority of my countrymen don't practice Judaism, and in the past 10 to 15 years, up to 35% of immigrants to Israel are Russians and Poles who have absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and just come over by converting to get an easy ride when compared to their own countries back home, as people who do aliya get a lot of benefits. Either way, why should one group out of many many groups who have ruled Palestine be able to claim it? Ancient Hebrews were from Iraq anyways, they were not even from Palestine. Not to even mention that its absurb that some people really believe that today's Jews are literally descendents of Ancient Hebrews! I think people are so deeply ideology driven that they don't want to hear rational arguments about this conflict. Others just want us Jews to just gather in Palestine so that the Arabs could murder us all and this would hasten the coming of the Messiah with the Rapture and Armageddon and all this good old lunatic BS.
 
Forget complicated debates. Some of us think simply and to the point.

Israel is a liberal, diverse democracy that DOES give Arabs the right to vote, lets gays live in peace, has freedom of the press, the list goes on.

The Arab states are oppressive, murder gays, sponsor terrorism (Against the US and to some degree Europe), and raise our oil prices.

Israeli leaders do not advocate the mass murder of Arrabs, yes there are a few extremists but they are widely discredited. On the other hand leaders of major Muslim nations (Iran) advocate nuking Israel.

So the bottom line: Israel isn't perfect but it sure beats the Arabs and Iranians. For gays, for the west, for sane people, for freedom.

People who call Israel a democracy have given democracy a new meaning. Israel is a democracy, like how Apartheid South Africa was a democracy. It is a democracy in place to empower Jews over other peoples in Israel. Read this piece if you want to know a bit about Israel's democracy. I am absolutely not a fan of any Arab country, but let us not forget that one of the MAIN reasons a lot of them continue to exist in its current form, with some of the world's most evil dictators and human rights abusers, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Jordan, much of the Gulf, were put in place by certain "Free" nations, they're funded, armed, and unashamedly protected by certain "Democratic" nations.....


Israeli Democracy

Fact or Fiction?

[SIZE=+2]by WILLIAM A. COOK[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+3]I[/SIZE]srael's bulldozing of 62 shops in the village of Nazkt Issa, north of Tulkarem next to the West Bank line with Israel on Tuesday and its refusal to allow International and Israeli peace activists to witness the devastation illustrates the total control of the military in what is supposed to be a democratic state. Americans saw and heard little of this action except that it was caused by the illegal establishment of the shops by Palestinians. In a democratic state, the alleged "illegality" would be dealt with in a court of law, not by an army protecting bulldozers from citizens throwing stones. But Americans hear only what Sharon allows the corporate media in America to receive from his minions as he prevents outsiders from witnessing the demolition.
The impending Israeli elections and the plethora of commentary that touts Israel as the only bastion of Democracy in the mid-east warrants consideration of the truth of the claim in light of Tuesday's devastation. It would appear that the American public accepts the reality of Israel as a democratic state and finds comfort in its compatibility with American values. That comfort translates into approximately three billion dollars per year for Israel, more aid than any other country receives.
A true Democracy must meet two criteria: one philosophical that presents the logic of its argument in a declaration and/or constitution; the other practical that demonstrates how the Democracy implements legislation, distributes resources, and makes equitable all policies and procedures for all its citizens.
Democracy is first and foremost a concept, a philosophical understanding concerning the rights of humans relative to the government that acts in their name. A Democratic government serves through the manifest consent of the governed. That government receives its authority through the citizens in whom the right resides. Inherent in this philosophical understanding is the acceptance of the rights of all citizens that reside in a state: each and every citizen possesses the right to consent to the legitimacy of those who govern, and each and every citizen must receive equal treatment before the law.
For a state to claim a Democratic form of government, it must have an established geographic area accepted by other nations as legitimate and defined. The need for established borders is both obvious and necessary with necessity arising out of the obvious. Without borders, there can be no absolute determination of citizenry, and, therefore, no way to fulfill the establishment of the rights noted above. What has this to do with the Democratic state of Israel? Everything.
Israel has no accepted legitimate borders other than those provided to it by Resolution 181, according to Anthony D'Amato, Leighton Professor of Law at Northwestern University, in his brief "The Legal Boundaries of Israel in International Law": "The legal boundaries of Israel and Palestine were delimited in Resolution 181." Since the 1967 war, the borders of the current area controlled by Israel exceed those outlined by the UN in Resolution 181 of 1948 as the current incident in Nazkt Issa illustrates. Despite numerous resolutions from the UN demanding that Israel return to its proper borders, most especially Resolution 242, Israel defies the world body continuing to retain land illegally held. The reality of this dilemma is most manifest in the settlements. Here, Jews residing in Palestinian areas continue to vote while Palestinians literally surround them and cannot vote. Where is the state of Israel? A look at a map would make it appear that Israel has the spotted coloration of a Dalmatian. Clearly, those living under Israeli domination are not considered citizens of the state of Israel even though they reside within parameters controlled by Israel. Since they are not citizens of Israel, and since there is no Palestinian state, these people are without a country and, therefore, without rights; an untenable position for any group which is recognized as a distinct governing group by the UN through its election of the Palestinian Authority as its governing body. That election followed democratic procedures including the creation of a constitution and the international monitoring of the election process.
A Democratic state must declare the premises of its existence in a document or documents that present to the world the logic of its right to govern. That usually comes in the form of a constitution. Unlike the Palestinians, Israel has no constitution. Chuck Chriss, President of JIA writes, "Israel has no written constitution, unlike the United States and most other democracies. There was supposed to be one. The Proclamation of Independence of the State of Israel calls for the preparation of a constitution, but it was never done." It's been more than 50 years since that "call". Why has Israel demurred on the creation of a constitution? Both Chriss in his article and Daniel J. Elazar, writing in "The Constitution of the State of Israel," point to the same dilemma: how to reconcile the secular and religious forces in Israel. Elazar states: "Israel has been unable to adopt a constitution full blown, not because it does not share the new society understanding of constitution as fundamental law, but because of a conflict over what constitutes fundamental law within Israeli society. Many religious Jews hold that the only real constitution for a Jewish state is the Torah and the Jewish law that flows from it. They not only see no need for a modern secular constitution, but even see in such a document a threat to the supremacy of the Torah"
The consequences of this divide can be seen in the discrepencies that exist in practice in Israel. While "the State of Israel is described in the Proclamation of Independence as both a Jewish State and a democracy with equal rights for all its citizens," the Foundation Law of 1980 makes clear that Israeli courts "shall decide [a case] in the light of the principles of freedom, justice, equity and peace of Israel's heritage." Without a written constitution, Israel relies on a set of laws encased in Israel's heritage, "some blatantly racist in their assignment of privilege based on religion," according to Tarif Abboushi writing in CounterPunch in June of 2002. But the structure of Israel's governing process that depends on a Knesset is also flawed. According to Chriss, "Members of the Knesset are elected from lists proposed by the parties on a national basis. Following the election, the parties get to assign seats in the Knesset based on their proportion of the national vote, drawing from the party list.Thus, individual MKs owe allegiance to the party chiefs and not directly to the electorate." (Emphasis mine). He goes on to say, "This political system has resulted in some distortions in which Israeli law and government do not reflect the actual wishes of the voting population."
For a state to claim a Democratic form of government, it must accept the equality of all residents within its borders as legitimate citizens regardless of race, ethnicity, creed, religion, political belief, or gender. For a state to claim it is Democratic and reserve the rights of citizenship to a select group negates its claim. It is an oxymoron to limit citizenship rights to Jews alone and call the state Democratic. As Joel Kovel has stated in Tikkun, "a democracy that is only to be for a certain people cannot exist, for the elementary reason that the modern democratic state is defined by its claims of universality." Yet this inherent contradiction exists in Israel. And this brings us from the philosophical phase to the practical one.
Daniel Elazar, reflecting on this conundrum in the postmodern era, notes that this "makes it impossible for the State to distinguish between the entitlements of Jewish citizens and others based upon obligations and performance; i.e., more benefits if one does military service than if one does not."
How does Israel implement the Democracy it claims to possess? First, any Jew from anywhere in the world can come to Israel and receive citizenship by virtue of his/her Jewishness. By contrast, a Muslim or Christian Palestinian living in exile because of the 1948 war cannot claim citizenship even though they were indigenous to the area, nor can their descendents claim citizenship. Second, ninety percent of the land in Israel is held in restrictive covenants, land initially owned by Palestinians for the most part, covenants that bar non-Jews from ownership including the Palestinians who hold a limited version of Israeli citizenship. Third, Israeli citizens who are Muslim or Christian do not share the rights accorded Jews who serve in the military, nor do they receive the benefits extended to those who serve in the military. Non-Jews are taxed differently than Israeli citizens and the neighborhoods in which they live receive less support. As recently as June 12, 2002, Paul Martin writing for the Washington Times noted "Israeli Arabs are trying to strike down a new law reducing family benefits, arguing that it has deliberately been drafted in a way that will affect Arabs more harshly than Jews."
While Arabs constitute 20% of the population within Israel, their voice in government is limited. Recently, an "expert" working for the General Security Service submitted his "expert opinion" to the Central Election Committee that undertook to disqualify Azmi Bishara and other Arab MKs from taking part in the election. This action would have deprived the Arabs of a voice in the Knesset if it had not been overturned by the Israeli court. The reality of Israeli political parties virtually assures non-representation of the Palestinians in the governing process. Even with Bishara permitted to run, the voice of the Palestinians is muted. As Uri Avnery noted recently, "One glance at the poitical map shows that without the Arab votes, no left-wing coalition has any chance of forming a government ­ not today, nor in the forseeable futureThis means that without the Arabs, the Left cannot even dictate terms for its participation in a coalition dominated by the Right."
Perhaps the most graphic illustration of the non-democracy that exists in Israel comes from Human Rights Watch and the US State Department reports published in Jurist Law. The range of abuses listed by the State Department includes detainees beaten by police, poor prison conditions that did not meet international standards, detainees held without charge, holding of detainees as bargaining chips, refusal to allow access to Obeid by the Red Cross, imposition of heavier sentences on Arabs than Jews, interference with private rights, etc,, and finally, "Trafficking in women for the purpose of forced prostitution is a continuing problem."
Human Rights Watch offers a litany of abuses, many more serious than those proferred by the Department of State: Israel has maintained the "liquidation" policy targeting individuals without trial by jury, lack of investigations to determine responsibility for killings and shootings, increased use of heavy weaponry, including F-16 fighter jets etc. against "Palestinian police stations, security offices, prisons, and other installations." HRW also references the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the occupied Territories for the wanton killing of civilians by settlers. The listing is too extensive to offer in its totality here.
As I mentioned at the outset of this article, the American public hears constant reference to Israel as the only democratic nation in the mid-east. They receive little or no information about the accuracy of that statement. Yet Americans accept this administration's and past administrations' support of Israel in large measure because they believe that it reflects the ideals expressed in the American Constitution and they are willing to spend their tax dollars in support of those ideals. In reality, American democracy and Israeli democracy are decidedly distinct.
Democracy cannot exist in ignorance of policies, processes, and actions undertaken on behalf of the people including the refusal to admit citizens to areas like Nazkt Issa where non-democratic action exists. Silence by the peoples' representatives concerning reasons for actions taken in their name corrodes democracy. Americans have not been told, for example, that American authorities removed 8000 pages of information from the 12,000 provided by the Iraqi government to the UN Inspectors, according to former MP Anthony Wedgewood Benn in an interview on BBC January 12th , pages removed to protect corporations that provided Iraq with chemicals and other material that could be used to develop WMD. Die Tageszeitung, a Berlin Daily, reported the names of the corporations that acted with the government's approval through the '80s and up to 1991 supplying Saddam with nuclear, chemical, biological and missile technology. An extensive report on the chemicals sent to Iraq by the US was disclosed in the Sunday Herald by Neil Mackay and Felicity Arbuthnot, but received little press beyond this paper. How can the American people respond intelligently to the designs of this administration against Iraq without knowing how Iraq obtained its capability to develop WMD and the reasons for developing them?
Similarly, Israel cannot restrict its citizens, including peace activists, or its American supporters, from knowing how it acts relative to Palestinians by preventing reporters or activists from describing what is done in their name. Preventing the UN investigation of the Jenin "massacre" is only one example. Restricting journalists from occupied territory is another. Preventing Israeli and international peace activists from Nazkt Isa is the most recent.
While the founding fathers' verbalized the concepts and ideals that are the foundation of American Democracy in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the full implementation of those ideals took many, many years to bring to fruition: a Civil War that freed slaves more than 70 years after the creation of the nation, Women's Rights more than 120 years after the founding, and the Civil Rights Acts of the '50s and '60s more than 150 years after its birth. That, however, is not a reason for Israel, or any nation moving toward a democratic status, to delay implementation of equal rights for all of their citizens; rather it is a demonstration of the necessity to introduce and ensure equity from the outset.
William Cook is a professor of English at the University of La Verne in southern California.
 
SoulSearcher you can post another 24 pages of "academic writings" using the same exhausted arguments that have been counter argued by many notable international law scholars, such as Julius Stone.

Resolution 181, Resolution 242 are favorite tools of arguing against the existence of state of Israel. Both resolutions were adapted under chapter 6, and resolution 181 has no legal meaning today because the Arabs refused to negotiate and accept it anyways.
There are no established borders because of Arab countries refusal to settle this issue once and for all. Palestine is not an official country, so your typical laws of occupations don't apply like they would in Iraq or Germany.
242 is non binding as it was passed under chapter 6, because Israel was a defender in that war; according to article 51 of UN Charter Egypt was the aggressor at the moment they blockaded Strait of Tiran for 3 weeks, a decoration of war under international laws of war.

Israel operates in self defense when it enters PA controlled territories. I don't know what is "occupation," when Israel doesn't administer Palestinian territories since 1993. Laws of Occupation don't apply, as Palestine is not a recognized State.
I don't recall Leftist academics and Arab propagandist use and abuse international laws do decry "occupations" of Palestinian land prior to 1967 when Gaza and West Bank were annexed by Egypt and Jordan.

Palestinians in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv have equal rights and right to vote, but Palestinians in the West Bank DON'T BECAUSE they are NOT citizens of Israel. Palestinians are governed by Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

What U.S. should allow Mexicans in Mexico City right to vote?


There is nothing really to argue with you. Just come to Israel, and talk to real Israelis, read out newspapers, watch our television, listen to Knesset debates. In Israel, we call it occupation, in Israeli newspapers, its called occupation, in Israeli military parlance, its called "the territories", but many military leaders have called it "occupation, the necessary one", the UN calls it the "Occupied territories", even dumbfuck Bush has called it the occupied territories, funny Americans need to stop shaping Israel and Israeli policies and politics. American Jews need to get into touch with reality and worry about New York. And the article above is not only talking about Palestinians from the occupied territories, its talking about Israeli Arabs, who make up more than 20% of our population.
 
So what, your proposing FORCED integration of communities? Forced integration will not solve Antisemitism because there are always new "problems" with the Jews. It doesn't matter that most Jews in Europe and elsewhere are assimilated, there will always be some new theory and reason why the world hates them.

I may be a white South African who is not entirely optimistic about the future of his country, but there is absolutely no way I would endorse segregation, voluntary or forced.

I've been to NY, incidentally.

My point is that everyone needs to find commonality, and they need to embrace this commonality at least as much as they cherish and cling to their diversity and cultural roots. And if you're an immigrant, you need to integrate. There's no point in leaving your country for another country and trying to make it exactly like your old country.

Of course I speak from the lofty position of being an integrated immigrant, and as an agnostic and part-time atheist I don't have the additional baggage of religion to drag me further into the mire. Perhaps that makes it easier.

Assimilation did not help Jews in Berlin who were screaming Berlin is our Jerusalem century prior to the Holocaust.

You are right - it didn't. However, I suspect that the Holocaust and your everyday bog-standard anti-semitism are two very different things. The sort of everyday casual racism/anti-semitism seen around the world is a separate issue to the land squabble in the middle East.

Israel is the problem?? Why were there Chmelnichki pogroms, blood libels in Britain, Dreyfus Affairs in France, the Holocaust, all prior to creation of Israel? Again some will give 30 new reasons and Israel is aint one of them.

My point was, if Israel hadn't been created in ?1948, would there still be as much anti-Jewish feeling in the world? The land squabble issue is on TV news worldwide, even her in .za, every day which keeps it ticking over in people's minds. Conversely, once a conflict is over - Rwanda, for example, when everyone who didn't have their heads in the sand hated the Hutus for massacring the Tutsis - it all calms down again. The additional issue with Israel as a nation is that it is inextricably tied to a religion - anti-Israel almost automatically is perceived as anti-Jew. At least, it is here in .za. The Jewish people I know will brand anyone who disagrees with Israel's policies an anti-semite, which is not necessarily the case.

-d-
 
The existence of Israel as a nation tied to a religion is still no excuse.
The Greeks and Armenians have their own nations, their own languages and their own religions too.
The Israeli model isn't that much different and cannot be used to justify the hatred.
 
It really makes me mad when gay people...
are put like the persecuted and hated ones when there are many more people who are more persecuted and killed to this day, like transexuals and nobody says nothing,
 
I dunno Soulsearcher. Let's not forget that Arabs have the right to vote in Israel, while Jews have no rights in Arab countries (not that there's more than 100 in any country anyway) Why is that? every Muslim country in the Middle East expelled their Jewish population and confiscated their property in the late 40s and 50s.

Maybe so Arabs are not full citizens in Israel. But Israel treats arabs better than Arabs treat Israelis.
 
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