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Italy; Love Them? Hate Them?

greaves said:
Torontoguy22: so what is this about?

Are you trying to tell me that this one isolated incident of right-wing fascism is a reflection of all Italian people? Every nation has its share of of political/cultural extremists. Just look at the KKK or the whole "Skin-Head" fad in North America. Right here in Toronto a few months ago--if I remember correctly--a Jewish mosque was attacked, and Nazi signs were graffitied across an area of the city. Does that mean that all Torontonians are neo-Nazis? Certainly not.

Also keep in mind that the Italian Football Federation suspended Di Canio and fined him 10,000 Euro. As well, "Italian law considers Fascists propaganda a crime." His pro-Mussolini gesture was clearly not an accurate depiction of Italy.
 
T-Rexx said:
It is not true that any players have been implicated in the current football scandal ongoing in Italy. The scandal has centered around a few club owners and football officials, who have now been sanctioned for attempting to fix matches. While it may seem impossible to try to fix the outcome of a match without the cooperation of the players, these attempts were astonishingly crude and of highly questionable effectiveness. They involved attempts to try and get certain referees (perceived variously as either particularly sympathetic or unsympathetic by the owners) assigned to certain matches, in the hope that such selection could affect the outcome of some games. The apparent ringleaders of this plot were the former general manager of Turin's Juventus, Luciano Moggi, and Antonio Giraudo, the former chief executive of Juventus. Italian authorities became aware of the possible fraud early on, and launched a massive nationwide investigation of Italian football. Phones of many clubs were tapped, and one club's business offices were raided by police with the seizure of some documents. Many players, referees, and football officials were questioned by magistrates, but no players have been implicated for wrong-doing. Gianluigi Buffon, Juventus's popular goalkeeper, was questioned by magistrates regarding alleged illegal betting. He was accused of betting 2 million euros (about $2.5 million) on sporting events, although this turned out not to be on soccer games in Italy. Buffon has said he stopped making the bets when new rules came into effect this season which banned such wagers.

Four club organizations eventually became caught in the massive sting: Juventus, Lazio, Fiorentina, and AC Milan. Although this is the biggest fraud investigation in recent Italian history, the very crudeness of the attempts at match-fixing, the lack of involvement by players, and the success of the Italian team in the World Cup led many to believe that the Italian football federation's sanctions would be moderate. Analysts expected Juventus to be knocked down to Serie B, and the other clubs to be docked points for the start of next season. Instead, Judge Cesare Ruperto demoted three of the clubs (Juventus, Fiorentina, and Lazio) to Serie B, docked Juventus an additional 30 points (the equivalent of 10 losses!), docked Fiorentina an additional 15 points, and Lazio an additional 7. In addition, Juventus' championships of 2004-5 and 2005-6 have been revoked, and club administrators Moggi and Giraudo have been banned from the sport for life. AC Milan was allowed to stay in Serie A, but will be docked 15 points at the start of next season, and is barred from participating in the European Champions Cup.

Moving a club from Serie A to Serie B is very nearly the American equivalent of knocking a professional baseball team into the minor leagues. Although there are provisions for a team to rise from Serie B to A, it is questionable that any of these clubs can now survive. Many Italians have been surprised by the severity of this justice, especially since only 21 people in total were found guilty of any crimes, and it is questionable to what extent the bumbling efforts of these few may have finally affected any outcomes.

Especially sad is the case of Lazio, which crawled out of bankruptcy last year, fought against incredible odds with astonishing heart, and battled tenaciously to an improbable sixth place finish in Serie A. Lazio fans have protested the court's ruling, as they feel it is the fans who are being penalized, not the handful of wealthy owners responsible for the scandal. The severe penalties meted out to Lazio were for the actions of just one member of the Lazio club, owner Claudio Lotito, who was suspended for three and one-half years.

The damage to Italian Serie A football has been severe. Italian team captain Cannavaro, who played for Juventus, has already signed with Real Madrid, and goalie Buffon is expected to follow. It will be many years before Serie A recovers. The severity of the sentences will likely ultimately aid this recovery, however, not impede it. Perhaps that is why lead prosecutor Stefano Palazzi had been advocating even more severe penalties than those ultimately imposed.

It is not the fault of the players that any of this happened, however. The players have been a credit to their nation, and have played with passion and skill – even if they are all idiots because of their nationality, as Arcenius has asserted without any hint of racism. As The New York Times reported with characteristic elegance on 9 July, “Throughout Italy's ride to the World Cup finals, the team has produced moments of beauty, grit and creativity before a cumulative worldwide television audience estimated at 30 billion or more.”

..| :=D: (*8*)
 
torontoguy22 said:
The verdict is out! FIFA has layed to rest the infamous head-butting issue. Here's the article:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2006/07/20/zidane-materazzi-fifa.html

The penalties:
Zidane - banned for 3 matches, fined 7,500 francs
Materazzi - banned for 2 matches, fined 5000 francs

One piece of the article I'd especially like to point out is the quote by FIFA:

"In their statements, both players stressed that Materazzi's comments had been defamatory but not of a racist nature ," FIFA said Thursday.

So there you have it-- Just your typical shit-talking that occurs in virtually every sport. This should silence those who claim that Italians are racist and discriminatory and so on. Face the facts: The players exchanged words, and Zidane's lack of discipline and frustration at being shut down by Italian keeper Gigi Buffon resulted in the head-butting. FIFA's sentencing proves who's more at fault here.

So, I say again and proudly:

FORZA AZZURRI!

..| :=D: (*8*)
 
And would you believe it. #-o All 4 clubs have had there punishments reduced on appeal. What a surprise ;) See:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,27-2286133,00.html

And further appeals will follow, where we will be told Italian football is as pure as the driven snow; that a very few individuals brought shame upon the reputation of Italian football. Etc etc...

"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."
 
I can't say that I love or hate any soccer team. But I did watch the entire game, and enjoyed it thoroughly. It was a well played match...but I really don't care for shoot-outs. I know you can't play forever, but getting lucky in a shoot-out - where the goalie's only chance is to guess right - just doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps if they allowed unlimited substitutions, the players would be fresh longer and actually score a goal...
 
Just because punishments have been reduced somewhat on appeal does not mean that the settlements are unfair or unjust. Many, many people inside and outside of Italy believed the initial judgements were strangely and inexplicably severe.

Unfortunately for the prejudices of certain people on this board and in society generally, Italy is a free nation whose citizens (even the bad ones) enjoy the right of trial (including appeal). As I have not sat in their courts, nor heard the arguments advanced for either side, I would not presume to assume that any conclusions the Italians have reached are unjust. It is a fundamental feature of all judicial systems everywhere that they ultimately rest on the judgements of human beings, who are frustratingly and inconsistently both foolish and brilliant. It might be wonderful if mankind could find some better and less potentially flawed means of implementing justice than the court of law. But so far, no one has figured out a better system for protecting the rights of individuals than that first developed by the Italians 2,500 years ago, and now in use to varying degrees in virtually every nation on Earth. I suspect that the inventors of Western Law practice it just about as well as anybody does, anywhere.

hasselhoff-pussy.gif
 
Nice try TRexx.;) But the people involved in the English corruption scandal of 1965 ended up in prison.

Have any of the guilty people involved in the 2006 Serie A corruption scandal ended up in prison? No. They, eg Moggi, have resigned, so they can spend more time pursuing other business interests.:badgrin:

See:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2198864,00.html

I remember that British football scandal. It was far, far more serious than the current Italian scandal. In fact, the 1960s British football scandal is generally regarded as the most serious and most heinous scandal in the history of football worldwide.

People went to jail in the British scandal because their crimes justified it. If nobody ends up going to jail in the Italian scandal, that would be because their crimes were not serious enough to justify imprisonment. You cannot compare someone getting some referees "thought" to be sypathetic to your club assigned to certain of your club's matches with players who are deliberately throwing games for money!

The British press is fond of whining about Italian football because they realize their home teams will never match up to the quality that is Serie A. Whining that they can't win because the rest of the world is so unfair is what the British press does best.
 
Players went to prison in the 1965 UK corruption scandal because prison is where they should have been sent. Justice was seen to be done.

Not one - let me just repeat that - not one Italian manager, owner, referee, player or agent has been sent to prison in the current Serie A corruption scandal, which has involved AC Milan, Juventus, Fiorentina, Lazio, Reggina and Arezzo.

See today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/5261574.stm
 
T-Rexx: you seem to imply all is now well in Italian football; that punishments have been imposed, and justice has been seen to be done. End of story.

Not so. Napoli are still under investigation by local magistrates. And Messina, Lecce and Siena have prosecuters still sifting thru' telephone transcripts regarding match-fixing.

I loved your suggestion re the Piazza del Duomo in Milan, particularly as this is Berlusconi's heartland, but would even that splendid setting be big enough?;)
 
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