It's not just about marriage...

[giorgiobaby]

applause....applause....applause....

 

[bluepheonix]

here here!

 

[Ram]

Ahem. I find it sad that there are gay people -- actually one person here but I assume being an ignorant bitch is nothing special since it affects quite a number of people too -- would consider criticisms against President Obama's "efforts" to be an outright unjustified attack from an imaginary group of gangsters that the homophobes coined in the past.

See my siggie.

You know what's the problem with us? We don't know what we want. Women in the past knew what they wanted: to be equal to men and that they deserve to be treated exactly the same. The African diaspora who have been living in America for centuries, contributing to its growth and security knew what they wanted: to be equal and that they deserve to be treated exactly the same.

And what does the gay community want: we have no freaking idea. Vanti you can create the thread that will end all threads but this problem will keep on existing -- even after we get our rights.

You may want marriage but a lot of our gay bros and sisters don't want that. You may want adoption rights but heck they hate kids. Some don't have partners so they have no need for things like medical benefits and tax breaks. Some have just chosen to path to fuck until death so technically, as long as they are not harmed, they are considered free. If it doesn't affect them, they won't care, and when they won't care, we won't win.

What do we really need? What is that common goal? We need something specific, not something vague like "equality".

What equality? Some say we have already gotten them. Some say we are far from it. Some think we can never get it.

We need to define equality.

What the fuck is it that we want?

(I want a free Sean Cody password. if you were impressed by that ^ please pm me. thxx hugs)

 

[bluepheonix]

Women in the past knew what they wanted: to be equal to men and that they deserve to be treated exactly the same.

I would point out that your notion that we need to know what 'we' want to get progress is outright incorrect. The women's movement is the perfect example, it is not a monolithic body with homogeneous goals, it never was. There were women who thought women voting and being equal with men was heretical, similarly there were some, and still are, who want more than the general push of the movement wanted. Similarly amoungst the african american movement there existed factionalism and various levels of fanaticism. No movement is homogeneous.

Equality before the law is hardly 'vague'. It is quite a clear goal to eliminate from legislation qualifications on the sex of two partners. How is that vague? e.g. in Australia, marriage equality, change the definition of marriage in the marriage act from "a man and a women..." to "two people (or other equivalent)...". Similarly eliminate all qualifications of "man and woman" from all other acts.

Pretty direct and clear goal right there.

 

[crzyrazn]

** Sighs **

Look, the Gay Rights Movement started in the 1990s. Those groups [Women and Blacks] mentioned in your opening are still fighting for certain rights. What makes gays so special?

The gay rights movements started with the Stonewall Riots of 1969. Gays aren't special. Did that post mention anything about gays being special? Did you even read it? Ok...than let them fight on, but in the mean time gays will also. What were you trying to prove by pointing that out? The post was about the frustrations and divisive issue of gay rights in the gay community. Not about the comparative progress of gay equality versus gender or black equality. We are a community of our own, and the issues that affect us are important to us, we are not pretending we are special. Trivializing gay rights by trying to compare it to other equality movements, which is like comparing apples to oranges, shows just the sort of attitude Vanti mentioned in the closing remarks of his post.

 

[andyroos]

Meh. All those rights you listed in your OP should have come LONG before the gay rights movement became the "gay marriage movement." The problem is that, really, a small number of gays have latched onto the marriage equality issue, and it has COMPLETELY crowded out any and all discussion of other rights/protection issues that would have a much greater impact on a far larger number of individuals. You say it's not just about marriage but it is.

But the single issue folks don't care about things like health care or ENDA (or they pay lip service to them) because they've got great insurance and job security. But they've managed to pull in most gays who nod their heads saying, "Yea! Gay marriage!" while not really having any particular conviction towards it. Don't misunderstand; I fully support marriage equality, but it should never have become synonymous with the gay rights movement as a whole.

 

[bluepheonix]

I'll just sit back and watch the Anger Filled, Intolerant, Thought Police Mob as they inject their vitriol to the next level. I've already been made ignorant by some. Lets see what's next.

Perhaps in the constructive vein of the posts you've already made then you wouldn't mind explaining how you justify believing the gay rights movement stated in the 1990s?

 

[andyroos]

Someone help me understand .Exactly what "struggles" do we as gay people suffer through each day in the U.S?

Try going to Iran where six gays were shot by their government for simply being gay!

IKR! If I hear one more $250k/yr earning, luxury car driving, glassy condo/mcmansion dwelling gay man refer to himself as 3/5 of a person un-ironically again I.will.vomit.

 

[bluepheonix]

IKR! If I hear one more $250k/yr earning, luxury car driving, glassy condo/mcmansion dwelling gay man refer to himself as 3/5 of a person un-ironically again I.will.vomit.

So if there are people worse off than you, your situation doesn't matter? Thats bad news to pretty much everybody whining about the financial crisis in America, last I checked sub-saharan Africa doesnt really even have an economy, lets all go bitch and moan about those inconsiderate pricks whining about losing their jobs!

 

[giorgiobaby]

some people will never get it and choose not to until it affects them outright in an openly negative way

 

[bluepheonix]

Look, the Gay Rights Movement started in the 1990s.

Ok let me clarify...The 1990s was the first time (in my eyes) that Gays became more visible thru T.V and Politics. Now mind you, I was just a kid then, so if I'm mistaken, then color me wrong..

(emphasis added)

Perhaps you should try saying what you mean, the two are vastly different. And how do you think the movement got to a position to demand such public attention in the 90s, surely you realise there were social movements BEFORE the advent of television.

 

[andyroos]

So if there are people worse off than you, your situation doesn't matter?

Of course your situtation matters, but when people make idiotic statements like I mentioned I'm going to at you and likely not take you seriously.

 

[crzyrazn]

I'll just sit back and watch the Anger Filled, Intolerant, Thought Police Mob as they inject their vitriol to the next level. I've already been made ignorant by some. Lets see what's next.

Vitriol? Again, where in that entire post did you detect any vitriolic statements? Is being aware of, and active about issues, anger filled? And I needn't even comment on where you think any of this is intolerant - besides your posts, of course. Yet the same empty rhetoric by the same simpletons who view gay issues, and the ones who care about them, as insignificant, because they rather be pompous imbeciles trying to be popular on a gay forum by being over argumentative and pathetically dramatic. You've been made ignorant by none, ignorance isn't even a fit word, because ignorance is at least excusable as being uneducated, you can claim neither. You're just a fool.

 

[bluepheonix]

What some of you need to understand is: The same ppl who refused my grandparents the right to a college education are still alive and well. Cultural Change comes thru a society's youth. It takes time!

Why, they just sat back and waited for equality? Does change just 'take time', or does it also take action? Surely you dont think it just happens spontaneously by itself? And by what measure do you determine the appropriate speed at which to start instigating change amongst the population?

 

[Ram]

Vanti, see this...

As much as I vehemently and childishly disagree with NeoSlacker's views, he is still one of us and he has every right to have his opinion. Please do not let yourself down and concede defeat just because you "failed" to convince someone.

He is the type of person I am talking about in my first post in this thread. He thinks we don't need it while we think we don't have much of it.

We cannot just steam-roll over gays that do not agree with us. Reach out and engage a conversation and get to know. I mean, honestly, when you created this thread, did you only expect our support? Hell no, when you have an opinion, there is someone out there bound to have an opposing view.

This is why I like JUB. Because they are people out there who don't think or talk or post like me. They keep my views in check, they give me new insight and they make me a stronger and far more mature person.

Ignorance is defeated with persistence and openness and not with defeat and hissy fits.

 

[crzyrazn]

He has a right to his opinion; however, he could at least make good of it. Whatever you might call his "opinion" seems to be lacking in anything considered and sensible. At least it wouldn't be so inadequate as to be so defenselessly mockable.

I'm not trying to steam-roll anyone. It's just so obvious what Vanti is saying, and so irritating when gay rights are treated so negligibly. It's trivialized by too many already, we don't need apathetic gays from within our own community demoralizing gay rights any further.

I'm sorry, but there are just some people who fail to be reached by sound argument and calm persistence.

Which is why I am abandoning this argument, as did Vanti, altogether.

 

[Ram]

At the risk of sounding like that old Asian dude from Karate Kid...

Oh the irony. It is so funny that this thread started out with the will to fight and it ended off because of one dissenter.

Three smart Jubbers -- Vanti, Stacy, Crazyazn -- put off by one "ignorant" gay man -- NeoSlacker.

Is this how we are going to win? Ignore them and pick our fights? You are not picking a fight, you are running away from one. You have thrown in the towel and you have given up.

Wherever you take your battle, there will always be people won't give a shit.

Things like that are not going to be easy. There are facts everywhere but have you ever wonder why it just can't get into some people? Because it is not the facts that are wrong, there is something in them that pushing knowledge out.

You seriously thought you could win over apathetic gay men with a thread and a fancy post (that I happen to like)? It's take more than facts, babe.

Is it really the apathetic gay people that holding us back or is it us?

Truth is, I am torn up. I am both apathetic and not apathetic. Part of me believes we can do it and part of me has given up. I was hoping the people here can change that. But it seems that you guys have given up too.

I know I care about things like this. Who cares JUB ignores this? I care. I want to hear. I read all the shit Metta's posts here. I go to CE&P too. How about you do this for me and for the people who care? Am I not worth preaching too?

It seems you guys don't want to change and inspire, you guys just want an audience.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Someone help me understand .Exactly what "struggles" do we as gay people suffer through each day in the U.S?

Try going to Iran where six gays were shot by their government for simply being gay!

Just because it's better where you are doesn't mean it's anywhere near perfect.

Black people here in .za had to carry pass books which allowed them access to parts of white areas/suburbs for years otherwise they could be arrested, in addition to not having voting rights, proper access to healthcare and education and all that other stuff.

Repealing the laws about passbooks was hardly any reason for massive celebrations - the majority still couldn't vote, still had shit schools and still got inferior healthcare from the government.

Something to think about, perhaps.

-d-

 

[Ram]

Just because it's better where you are doesn't mean it's anywhere near perfect.

Black people here in .za had to carry pass books which allowed them access to parts of white areas/suburbs for years otherwise they could be arrested, in addition to not having voting rights, proper access to healthcare and education and all that other stuff.

Repealing the laws about passbooks was hardly any reason for massive celebrations - the majority still couldn't vote, still had shit schools and still got inferior healthcare from the government.

Something to think about, perhaps.

-d-

The only difference between the American Government and the Iranian one is that although both see gay people as second-class humans, only one of them bothers to hang.

 

[metta]

Vanti

And this is not the place to try to rally the troops to fight inequalities. People are here to forget those issues exist.

At least that's what I was told. Any time I tried to point out the struggles still ongoing. But just because I didn't have the strength to continue doesn't mean I think you should stop. I just don't want you to fall prey to what I did. I was constantly angry coming to JUB. But why? Why get angry? Start realizing where you are and what JUB stands for.

I have a feeling that is why Mattie left. I miss his posts. There are some Jubbers that were pretty much just jerks to Mattie. He did not deserve that.

I'll just sit back and watch the Anger Filled, Intolerant, Thought Police Mob as they inject their vitriol to the next level. I've already been made ignorant by some. Lets see what's next.

No you wont. You will just belittle people trying to make a difference in issues that you don't personally think are important.

What some of you need to understand is: The same ppl who refused my grandparents the right to a college education are still alive and well. Cultural Change comes thru a society's youth. It takes time!

We all know that it takes time. Many of us have been working on this for decades. We know it takes time and we know it does not get done by being quiet.

I know I care about things like this. Who cares JUB ignores this? I care. I want to hear. I read all the shit Metta's posts here. I go to CE&P too. How about you do this for me and for the people who care? Am I not worth preaching too?

It seems you guys don't want to change and inspire, you guys just want an audience.

Thanks for reading the shit.

In any issue, political or non-political, it does not matter what it is, there is usually a core group of supporters. And when you talk to political consultants, they normally say that it is best to spend your time, money and efforts on educating people that are open to be being educated. Kind of obvious but it is an important point.