Libya, Bradley Manning and Human Rights

[Kulindahr]

~~
So many people laugh at the UN's ineffectualness but I wonder how the oppressed people of the world can take the UN seriously while it's located in the heart of New York, the symbol of Capitalism

Since it's been capitalism that's lifted the majority of the planet's people as far as they are economically, New York is a good location.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Yipyips

 

[EwanSF]

Since it's been capitalism that's lifted the majority of the planet's people as far as they are economically, New York is a good location.

Dude, you should do standup.

 

[Kulindahr]

Dude, you should do standup.

With truth?

Anywhere in the world where there's abundant personal wealth, it came from capitalism. Any place that socialism has had success, it's because that socialism is like a layer of frosting on a cake of capitalism. China finally figured it out, and unleashed capitalism.

Odds are, you're thinking of (lesser) corporatism when you think capitalism is bad. Lesser corporatism is when corporations get to pretend they're people, and become vehicles for buying politicians and political structures to serve corporate ends. Corporatism is really a form of feudalism; the people at the top are the 'lords', the employees their vassals and serfs, and everyone else is 'them'.

In Marxist terms, capitalism is a good and necessary step along the path -- but corporatism is actually a step backwards.

 

[BostonPirate]

~~
So many people laugh at the UN's ineffectualness but I wonder how the oppressed people of the world can take the UN seriously while it's located in the heart of New York, the symbol of Capitalism

The UN's mission has nothing to do with american capitalism.

 

[Corny]

imho for once "we" acted correct. the region (arabian league) agreed that the no-fly zone would be a valid measure. the un quickly agreed on an embargo/restrictions. the un agreed on the no-fly zone.
it all took WAY too long (and i am not particularly proud of germany's chicken tactic) but for once the world agrees and stands up for the people.

let's hope it is not too late for them.


bostonpirate:
I strongly believe in wikileaks because I believe that information should be free. Through obscure laws politicians, nations and companies hide a lot of dirt. If we want real democracy, we need to be informed about what our representatives do, what our state does and how our economy is run. various countries do have "freedom of information" laws - yet they are merely straw men. wikileaks and others have frequently shown in the past that free information can change things to the better. it is no coincidence that they got awards from amnesty and that they are considered for the next nobel peace price.

knowledge is power. knowledge gives even the small man power. don't let people try to keep knowledge from you.

compare the hacker ethics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics

 

[pat grimshaw]

Just to clarify my earlier post (#100) I'm suggesting that the oppressed/ discontented/ poor people of the world distrust the U.N. BECAUSE it is located in the heart of New York, which they see as the symbol of Capitalism

 

[kallipolis]

Just to clarify my earlier post (#100) I'm suggesting that the oppressed/ discontented/ poor people of the world distrust the U.N. BECAUSE it is located in the heart of New York, which they see as the symbol of Capitalism

Following your logic should the poor, and oppressed of this planet distrust the United Nations Refugee Agency, because it is located in Switzerland, a country celebrated for holding the untaxed ill gotten gains, and profits of the rich, and famous?

Should the poor, and oppressed of this planet distrust the United Nations Food Programme because it is based in Rome, Italy where that clown Silvio Berlusconi reigns as prime minister?

If the poor, and oppressed of this planet distrust the United States, and particularly, New York City as a result of that country's capitalist ethos why are so many impoverished people risking their life to illegally enter, and live in the United States?

 

[Lostlover]

While I agree with the UN's assessment and the Arab League's backing, the time it took to get everyone on board was egregious and counterproductive. Instead of the momentum being in the rebels' hands, Gaddafi now is quicklime retaking Libya through aerial bombardments and hiring mercenaries from other African countries.

This might not end up good for the rebels. The international community took its time.

 

[pat grimshaw]

Following your logic…

their logic, not mine

 

[Corny]

apparently the libyan minister for foreign affairs (? NOT gadaffi) has declared a cease fire and says that libya will respect the UN resolution ..

 

[BostonPirate]

apparently the libyan minister for foreign affairs (? NOT gadaffi) has declared a cease fire and says that libya will respect the UN resolution ..

I was seeing that. I don't know what to make of it.

I don't know if that will stop the coalition from taking out his radar and command structures. They ARE going to do the flyovers of the nation, and they cant do them with that support being there.

I think he's setting them up for a showdown.. its a bluff. He has ground troops surrounding all these cities.

I am not sure if a cease fire will help his cause. I think the only thing that he can do to stop being attacked right now is to surrender to the haigue for crimes against humanity.

He says he is willing to comply with UN resolutions, but which ones?

He hasn't been attacked yet, so his delaying tactic seems to be working. When he is told to surrender? I doubt he will go without a fight.

 

[Kulindahr]

their logic, not mine

Not according to your post

apparently the libyan minister for foreign affairs (? NOT gadaffi) has declared a cease fire and says that libya will respect the UN resolution ..

Cruise missiles and planes should be in the air NOW. Wipe out some of the air defense installations, then announce that any installation turned over to the rebels will be spared.

 

[kallipolis]

apparently the libyan minister for foreign affairs (? NOT gadaffi) has declared a cease fire and says that libya will respect the UN resolution ..

Then there is on the ground reality that informs us that Gadaffi's forces are still inflicting casualties on the rebels.

 

[kallipolis]

Not according to your post






Cruise missiles and planes should be in the air NOW. Wipe out some of the air defense installations, then announce that any installation turned over to the rebels will be spared.

A few incentives should attract the serious attention of Gadaffi and his military, enabling serious discussions to ensue.

This is the beginning of the interesting phase.

 

[BostonPirate]

they are trying to get five nations militaries coordinated.

The attack will happen sooner than later, and we will hear the details of who decided what after the first volley to take out communications with stealth tech happens.

After Stealth bombers soften up libyan defences, we will see sams and Predator drones.... then finally I think people will start flying the no fly zone.

Its a pretty set way the US has of disabling an enemies CinC ops.

 

[EwanSF]

With truth?

Anywhere in the world where there's abundant personal wealth, it came from capitalism. Any place that socialism has had success, it's because that socialism is like a layer of frosting on a cake of capitalism. China finally figured it out, and unleashed capitalism.

Odds are, you're thinking of (lesser) corporatism when you think capitalism is bad. Lesser corporatism is when corporations get to pretend they're people, and become vehicles for buying politicians and political structures to serve corporate ends. Corporatism is really a form of feudalism; the people at the top are the 'lords', the employees their vassals and serfs, and everyone else is 'them'.

In Marxist terms, capitalism is a good and necessary step along the path -- but corporatism is actually a step backwards.

Kuli, please don't be patronising. I personaly believe corporatism is inevitable when capitalism is left to fester without the transfer to socialism, as is the case with your country. And it's not like it's a new developement, many of the early industrialist favoured that particular model, more than few inspired by the political philosophies of Benito Musolini.

 

[justapixel]

After Stealth bombers soften up libyan defences, we will see sams and Predator drones

That is so 2003.

I predict they will knock out the SAMs with Predators.

 

[BostonPirate]

That is so 2003.

I predict they will knock out the SAMs with Predators.

you could be right. That makes sense.

If they dont have to send in pilots, I Doubt they will.

Obama seems to love the predator drone. It is his weapon of choice in warfare. Do predator drones have stealth tech?

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli, please don't be patronising. I personaly believe corporatism is inevitable when capitalism is left to fester without the transfer to socialism, as is the case with your country. And it's not like it's a new developement, many of the early industrialist favoured that particular model, more than few inspired by the political philosophies of Benito Musolini.

Good old Benny. He's probably the patron saint of the Koch brothers.

Corporatism is a very likely outgrowth of capitalism, but I don't think it's inevitable. At any rate, I like to keep the systems distinct.

That is so 2003.

I predict they will knock out the SAMs with Predators.

Not likely -- they can launch six cruise missiles for the cost of a single Predator.