Maine People's Veto, will it pass or fail?

[White Eagle]

I like the direction things are going there.

 

[Kulindahr]

<leads cheer>

Stick it to the bigots!
Stick it to the bigots!
Stick it to the bigots!
Rah rah rah!

 

[Kensei]

Anyone know the latest polls? I goggled but can't find anything.

 

[Kulindahr]

Probably someone did one over the weekend and it will be out early Monday.

At least, I expect so.

 

[hotatlboi]

The polls are close enough to be mostly irrelevant at this point. It will depend on turnout (especially among younger voters).

 

[scream4ever]

Geez. So many more people have been now answering that the veto will pass. What happened? From what I've seen news seems to look better just about everyday.

 

[NickCole]

Geez. So many more people have been now answering that the veto will pass. What happened? From what I've seen news seems to look better just about everyday.

It's still very close and I think the vote will turn on which side gets more people out to vote.

There's been a lot of activism happening in and for Maine's No on 1. It's not the funzies sexy kind of activism like a Washington March, it's grinding nuts and bolts organizing like identifying No on 1 supporters (more time consuming than you might think), phone calling (lots and lots and lots of phone calling) and candlelight vigils and standing in public places handing out flyers with information and trying to talk to people. But it's happening in a pretty big way. And many people outside the state have been participating. In addition to the five Maine offices in Ogunquit, Portland, Lewiston, Augusta and Brewer, there are other activist groups pulling together our resources nationwide. In this time of cell phones and Internet, even those who can't actually get to the scene can pitch in.

The big push with votes like this, unless you have some very special circumstance, is not to change people's minds but to get those who are on our side to vote. In Maine there was open voting this past Saturday and a lot of time and effort was invested in encouraging our supporters to do that. And of course today and tomorrow there'll be phone calling and driving and emailing and in-person appeals. This has been going on for many weeks but now is obviously crunch time. The primary concern is the 18-25 year olds who largely support same sex marriage but can be unreliable about actually coming out to vote.

Fingers crossed, there's reason to be optimistic.

 

[Kensei]

I just read this myself at http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/11/02/Maine_Poll__51__Yes,_47__No_on_1/.

Have faith. If question 1 does pass, just remember that this isn't the end. You will have your rights one day.

 

[Kulindahr]

From the comments at that article, it sounds as though the efforst by whoever's running the gay side of this have been kind of pathetic. I'd like to see some of the ads, to get my own view.

They should have some of the people like that one WW II vet out speaking and telling people that this is what America is all about: freedom of choice, freedom of association, equality.

 

[NickCole]

From the comments at that article, it sounds as though the efforst by whoever's running the gay side of this have been kind of pathetic. I'd like to see some of the ads, to get my own view.

They should have some of the people like that one WW II vet out speaking and telling people that this is what America is all about: freedom of choice, freedom of association, equality.

I hope you're wrong.

I haven't been up there, haven't been able to get away but I've sent money, provided every name I could and pushed the few friends I have in Maine to help out, and done emailing and phone calling from my house. This is an important event and it would be very helpful if we could start winning these votes.

But one thing I've noticed repeatedly with gay activism the past couple of years, is gays who like to show up at big fun events, take pictures, tell everybody "I was there" and "I saw so-and-so celebrity" and then don't show up to do the heavy lifting for the substantive events like No on 1. The same thing happened in New York, which I was involved with as well. I don't know about what happened last year in CA because I wasn't involved at all but with No on 1 I've seen the organizers, and all the volunteers, working hard and open to any ideas, only falling short because they lack the funds or manpower to make something happen; this isn't the fault of "whoever's running the gay side," it's the fault of gays and those who support us who can't be bothered to do any real work.

 

[NickCole]

Elvin.

First of all if posting that I've made some phone calls is what you call bragging, that's just pathetic. IMO that's the least each of us can and should do, and is a long way from the kind of effort worth bragging about. But then you think a quitter is a hero, so whatever.

Secondly, that post wasn't about you and wasn't specifically about the recent Washington March. I posted similar criticism back in June and July when I was involved in the New York same sex marriage effort, which was a fun social experience but very frustrating activist experience. Those guys cared a lot more about how they looked, which celebrity was in the room and incessantly taking pictures than actually doing work.

I am not a professional activist, I'm a writer. I have a boyfriend and two homes and dogs and friends and I'm in my 50s enjoying life a little after giving my life over to gay/AIDS activism and support in the 1980s. I owe you nor anyone else any apologies for what I don't do, like not being involved in the CA Prop 8 efforts. I wasn't about to give five minutes of my time in CA if gays didn't even have the balls to insist Obama help out when he so obviously could have been a major asset in that particular battle. In fact that was the beginning of my disappointment with today's gay activists. Oh, and not that I owe you an explanation but I didn't attend the DC March last month because it happened on the weekend of my bf's and my 18th anniversary and we'd planned a weekend with friends at our house and the houses of two other couples in the country long before I heard about the march.

As for the results of our activism in the 70s and 80s, no we didn't get everything done -- we had a little fatal illness and death thingy we were dealing with for ten years -- but if you think we didn't accomplish a lot then you don't know jack about our history, where we've come from and the amazing milestones that led to today.

And Obama hasn't done shit for gays. He did not "get the hate crimes bill passed" as you falsely assert. He merely signed a law that Congress wrote and passed without any "fierce advocacy" from him.

I'm not in Maine because I have a lot going on here right now, both in New York and Connecticut, and I need to be here. So I looked into what I could do from here and it turned out there's plenty for me to do by phone and Internet that fills every hour I could give to the effort. Anybody across the country could have done that, and many did.

 

[Kensei]

You know what's going to sting even harder if this passes? All the religious bigots gloating about it.

 

[scream4ever]

The only reason there is any risk of this passing is because of voter turnout being lower this year (which I'm heard may not actually be an issue anymore). If this were a regular election year we would have this in the bag. So just remember that if we lose it's basically by default.

 

[Kulindahr]

You know what's going to sting even harder if this passes? All the religious bigots gloating about it.

I am SO glad I'm nowhere near any university where college groups will be cheering if this passes......

The only reason there is any risk of this passing is because of voter turnout being lower this year (which I'm heard may not actually be an issue anymore). If this were a regular election year we would have this in the bag. So just remember that if we lose it's basically by default.

No, "if we lose this" it's because people who allegedly care didn't get off their asses and actually care.

Staying home is a vote for oppression, just like it was in California. If this goes through, what it really means is that when it comes to the crunch, the younger generation isn't a whole lot different from the older.

 

[scream4ever]

Well, you can only do so much dude. The No on 1 side has worked to the bone. People do need to step up and take initiative within themselves. Luckily, Maine has the third highest voter turnout of any state.

 

[Kensei]

Well, you can only do so much dude. The No on 1 side has worked to the bone. People do need to step up and take initiative within themselves. Luckily, Maine has the third highest voter turnout of any state.

This third highest voter turnout is what I'm counting on. On top of this, Maine has something that it has never had before at an election. National attention and the whole hype of Gay Marriage in their state. I'm sure everyone knows of it, it's just a matter of getting off your ass.

 

[scream4ever]

This third highest voter turnout is what I'm counting on. On top of this, Maine has something that it has never had before at an election. National attention and the whole hype of Gay Marriage in their state. I'm sure everyone knows of it, it's just a matter of getting off your ass.

Exactly. People there clearly take politics seriously. I've talked to college students in Maine and they say that everyone is really involved in politics. People are being pressured into taking part, and especially voting no (peer pressure can be positive sometimes!). Remember too that people who live on campus can vote right there, so it's very convenient (and they can register the day of the election at their polling place)

 

[NickCole]

Nick, I appreciate that you have done a great deal for gay rights and all, but this I took exception to:

That is the worst kind of activism there is. Turning your backs on the people, gay and straight, that did in fact give time and money and voice their distaste for what was and was not being done during the fight for Prop 8.

As has been discussed, I am in fact straight. I donated money to fight Prop 8, put a No on 8 bumper sticker on my car, wore a No on 8 sweatshirt and pin everywhere I went and I lectured anyone and everyone about what Prop 8 was and was not. I also voted for the first time in many years, just so that my voice would be heard on Prop 8 - I voted President and Prop 8, nothing else.

California did not lose because there weren't enough activists, it lost because bigotry runs rampant here, just like in Maine and just like in all the other places we are fighting in right now. Picking and choosing where, when and why is not how to go about it. You are right about that, but you are doing exactly the same thing the "ones that only go to the parties" do by not attending the important marches and fights across the US because not enough gays are serious about it. That pretty much tells me that you do not have an appreciation for anything we do, gay or straight.

Please step off of your mountain and stop looking down on those that fight for rights in ways you do not see fit. It doesn't matter how we fight, it matters that we are seen and heard.

Stacy, each of us choose our battles. I cannot be everywhere or give to every cause, and I cannot go the site of every fight. Activism can be financially and physically exhausting, and if we're going to be strong for the fight we have keep our selves, our private relationships, and our personal finances reasonably healthy. I learned this the hard way in the 80s when we could literally spend every waking moment of every day working on life and death causes and there'd still be more to do. By 1990, despite having earned very well and being 34 years old I was broke and burned out. We cannot do it all and it's up to each of us to make choices based on our own sense of where our presence and efforts will be most effective.

And I did not choose to not join in the CA fight because not enough gays were serious about it. Your ability to interpret what you read is very heavily burdened by your biases.

I live in CT and NY, and joining a CA fight over a ballot proposition is a big commitment because I have a life and responsibilities here in the northeast. I'm a 53 year old activist, some view that with genuine respect and appreciate my involvment, others view activists my age as dinosaurs and relics and don't really want us and our baggage around. I joined the fight for same sex marriage in CT because my participation was welcomed, my ideas listened to and respected (though of course not always agreed with) and I could make a difference. I tried in NY because initially I was avalanched with respect and appreciation but frankly it turned out to be somewhat false and all in all, though I made some new friends and had some fun, it was a waste of my time. With Maine, I was approached and I've done everything I could, which the Maine organizers made possible because they provided ways for out-of-state activists to participate in substantive ways. With California in 2008, to put it nicely my generation of activists wasn't especially wanted. I wasn't the only one who stayed away. Further, the CA organizers set up no system by which out-of-staters could help out (except of course with cash, and of course I donated but writing a check is easy). And when I --and a few other gay activists my age and older-- suggested they ask Obama to mention Prop 8 at his rallys and press appearances in CA, or at least ask him to issue a strong statement with wording that somehow would resonate with his African American base, which we needed on our side, we were not only dismissed but ridiculed and denigrated. And we weren't the only ones who felt dismissed by those organizers. There was, IMO, little opportunity for me to be effective in CA.

Events like the Washington March are a party. It's fun times. That's a good thing. It helps build support and relationships and, hopefully, inspiration and goodwill while we have a good time. But real change comes from the roll-up-your-sleeves work in crummy downtown offices and long hours of phoning, waiting, arguing, pushing, meeting, planning, researching, and a million other tedious tasks, and marching also when it's not easy, not a party, not celebrities and big smiles but when we're ridiculed by the opposition. I'm glad people went to DC to march, I'm glad some gays bussed up from NYC to Albany to show a presence in support of same sex marriage, and all the other similar events; they're doing more than the ones who do nothing. But I also place it in context, just as I do Obama saying he's a fierce advocate for us when he's never really tried to do anything for us versus Clinton's promises and then efforts that unfortunately resulted in DADT. Clinton was unable to deliver on his promises the way we hoped but he did try and he did spend political capital in the effort, and that says something about his character and the truthfulness of his words. We all stumble and we often fall short of our goal, but there is a difference between those who try and are willing to do the hard unpleasant work and those who only go to the parties, take smiling pictures and then boast something like they're an activist or fierce advocate.

 

[glo-unit]

Does anyone know when the polls close in Maine, and when results will start coming out?

 

[Kensei]

Today's the day! I'm watching CNN.