Minimum wage... pick a number.

[peeonme]

I have to say that tax cuts for the top 1% is the true welfare in this country.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secretary-taxes/index.html

Buffett says he's still paying lower tax rate than his secretary

Cut taxes on the Wall street crowd and not a peep, talk about a living wage and OMG! Welfare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These pirates here people oppose the minimum wage increase and laugh their asses off... at the people who oppose them. They know who the true fools are.

 

[Dominus]

What are you talking about? I have stated many times on here that I wholeheartedly oppose tax cuts for the top 10%. This is perhaps the main reason why I vote against the repugnicans. They always try to shift the tax burdens away from the top 10%.

But again, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Dominus]

If increasing the minimum wage is 'public assistance', then why not do away with it all together? Are you for that?

I'm neither for nor against removing the min wage all together. At this point, I don't see it as relevant.

I stand by what I said before, which is min wage type jobs should be for teenagers who are trying to learn work ethics and immigrants who are trying to get a foothold in this country. My nephew is 16 and he works at panda express for minimum wage. He shouldn't have to compete this summer job with adults who have no intention of moving to more skilled line of work.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I stand by what I said before, which is min wage type jobs should be for teenagers who are trying to learn work ethics and immigrants who are trying to get a foothold in this country. My nephew is 16 and he works at panda express for minimum wage. He shouldn't have to compete this summer job with adults who have no intention of moving to more skilled line of work.

I thought to myself "Ok finally he's giving an objective statement about the low working class" til the bolded part. FYI classism isn't any cuter than any other form of elitism.

 

[peeonme]

I'm neither for nor against removing the min wage all together. At this point, I don't see it as relevant.

I stand by what I said before, which is min wage type jobs should be for teenagers who are trying to learn work ethics and immigrants who are trying to get a foothold in this country. My nephew is 16 and he works at panda express for minimum wage. He shouldn't have to compete this summer job with adults who have no intention of moving to more skilled line of work.

Okay, put away your degree, hypothetically lets say you are 21 or 22. All you have is a HS education. You leave panda express you know of no one who can help you find a job. You are on your own.
Tell me, what skilled line of work will you go to? Give some examples.

 

[Dominus]

Okay, put away your degree, hypothetically lets say you are 21 or 22. All you have is a HS education. You leave panda express you know of no one who can help you find a job. You are on your own.
Tell me, what skilled line of work will you go to? Give some examples.

This is a loaded question. Of course in such a situation I wouldn't have a skilled line of work to go to because I wouldn't have the skill.

Part of the recipe to get out of poverty is establishing a strong family foundation. Over the years, I have observed a very important trait in successful families that I simply don't see in poor families. Strong family support of each other. I have a friend whose parents one time had a leaky roof. He and his wife paid for a replacement roof for their parents. They're white by the way. So nothing to do with being Asian. His parents after all taught him how to properly manage life.

Again, I'm not at all proposing we let people swim or die. We should be spending our resources teaching people how to form strong family bonds, economic goals, life skills, etc.

But let's look at a worst case scenario. Suppose I don't have my college degree and I grew up orphaned. No one to give me proper guidance. Ok. Lets assume all poor people are so in such situation. Instead of the government forcing businesses to pay me big bucks for doing unskilled tasks, they could have classes in high school where they taught me how to properly manage a budget, what compounded interest was and why I shouldn't just pay the minimum for credit card, etc. And most importantly, they could teach me how to get into a trade. For example, I could become an electrician. Go sign up here, there's a program over there to train me to get a cdl for free. Or I can simply walk up to a construction crew and ask for a job. There are lots of things to do.

I'm paying a guy 20-some per hour to look for existing cable lines so we don't shut off half the city while building our structure. I brought him up because he walked right up to a foreman on sight asking for a job.

My husband's brothers and sisters had no idea how to better themselves to get into a skilled trade line of work because no one ever taught them and yet they knew exactly where to sign up for food stamps. That's absurd. I don't recall any of my high school classes teaching me how to get into a trade. Instead, they made me memorize things like the French and indian war and the names of cloud formations. But no guidance of how to get into a good career path.

Ok, my turn to ask you a loaded unfair question. Suppose you're going to war. You stand there naked no weapons by yourself. The other side has 10,000 men with machine guns. They are about to come at you and totally clobber you.

See? I can ask absurd questions too.

My point is the war on poverty should be focusing on teaching people to prepare for real life, establish a strong family foundation, budgeting skills, etc. instead of permanently put people on welfare for having children out of wedlock and force companies to pay high dollar for unskilled labor. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone would argue against teaching people to fish.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Part of the recipe to get out of poverty is establishing a strong family foundation. Over the years, I have observed a very important trait in successful families that I simply don't see in poor families. Strong family support of each other. I have a friend whose parents one time had a leaky roof. He and his wife paid for a replacement roof for their parents. They're white by the way. So nothing to do with being Asian. His parents after all taught him how to properly manage life.

Well this one is new, people are poor because their families aren't supportive.

 

[peeonme]

This is a loaded question. Of course in such a situation I wouldn't have a skilled line of work to go to because I wouldn't have the skill.



Ok, my turn to ask you a loaded unfair question. Suppose you're going to war. You stand there naked no weapons by yourself. The other side has 10,000 men with machine guns. They are about to come at you and totally clobber you.

See? I can ask absurd questions too.

My point is the war on poverty should be focusing on teaching people to prepare for real life, establish a strong family foundation, budgeting skills, etc. instead of permanently put people on welfare for having children out of wedlock and force companies to pay high dollar for unskilled labor. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone would argue against teaching people to fish.

Well, your question is absurd inasmuch as it's not analogous to the discussion, whereas my question to you was. You seem to be unable to look at this in an objective manner. Drawing on your family experience does not help you understand the person who grows up without family support.
I always hesitate to speak of ethnic groups or cultures, it leads to stereotyping and accusations. Just drawing on personal experience certain groups such as Asians, Jews and some mid eastern cultures have a tradition of taking care of their families. In some white families (actually most that I have dealt with) there is an animosity towards those that are successful. I saw it especial in my mothers family. If someone made more money or found employment easily is was resented.

My wife's family complained that I was 'over paid'. My own family hated it when I moved on to a better paying job. In my world at least family support was not heard of. After my dad's death when I was 9, not one person ever told me that they would be there if I ever needed them. They were there to mooch money from my mother.

In a perfect world, family support would be there, the world isn't perfect. Now, no one is saying to pay 'big bucks' for unskilled work. If you think big bucks is $15.00 per hour you are out of touch. That amount is hardly enough to live on. A living person should earn a living wage.

I am all for people moving in to vocational skills, I have stated that before in this thread and in others. I think that life skills such as managing money should be taught in schools.

I do believe that the root problem in many cases is just self confidence. I don't know that it can be taught or developed in a person. I will allow myself the privilege to seem like a braggart as it seems to trend in this thread.

I went through the 5th grade, failed the 6th twice, never saw the 7th, got about 3 months of the 8th grade and did finish the 9th. I studied math (including trig) at home on my own, with that I developed a decent vocabulary and my vernacular was such that I impressed employers when I went to job interviews, oddly, I never recall my education being a topic.

I read and studied such things as astronomy, anthropology, history and various sciences on my own and I continue to do so. I was expelled from school and accused of being retarded, after 18 months in a reform school I quit public education, I didn't 'drop out".

Now my arm aches as I have twisted it so hard to pat my self on the back, but, I will continue. I have managed restaurants, worked in numismatics, sold real estate and ended up as a skilled tool maker.

You would think that I would look at the low wage guys and tell them to get off of their asses, work harder, get some balls. Apply yourselves.

But I can't. I was blessed, somehow all of the calamities and tragedies, abuses etc. worked to build me up. Can I really brag? No. It would be like bragging about dick size, you don't get a big cock by winning a spelling bee, it's genetics. We should use what we have as well as we can with out holding those who don't measure up to our standards in disdain.

 

[Dominus]

^^ Ok, you are right. We should stop talking about how to move up the economic ladder because that's just bragging. From this point on, I will talk about how miserable life is, how everyone is just helpless, and life sucks.

And yes, we have notice my husband's family showing animosity toward his success. When he graduated, the only people who came to his graduation was pretty much everyone in my family within reach. My sister's family drove for 5 hours to attend hi graduation. Not a single person from his side came. When he got his first professional job, my parents threw him a party. Not a single congrats from his siblings.

Life sucks. We are totally helpless. Please help us.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

^^ Ok, you are right. We should stop talking about how to move up the economic ladder because that's just bragging. From this point on, I will talk about how miserable life is, how everyone is just helpless, and life sucks.

Or maybe we can acknowledge that, outside of technological bursts and sporadic upticks, for the most part the "born poor die poor, born rich die rich" stagnation of the upward climb has been consistently difficult across all demographics and regions and is certainly more complex than just "Rich people work super hard and poor people don't oh and also their families are shit." People like to go "Bu bu but Steve Jobs bu bu bu Bill Gates" as if going from poor to quadrillionaire is a realistic, achievable standard and a matter of a mere spit-shine and some good old fashioned hard work. economics experts have agreed for years that the average person is going to die in the same tax bracket they were born into, it is the height of arrogance to use one's self as some sort of template for everybody else and to insult anyone who hasn't matched your level of achievement and security. It's intellectually lazy, dishonest, anti-poor propoganda fed from politicians who work tirelessly to make sure their rich buddies get richer and everyone else be damned. You telling me someone born to poverty can just as easily "make it" as the child of, say, rich politicians or celebrities-- who will maintain their wealth not because of trust funds and obscenely wealthy parents but because they just worked harder?

 

[peeonme]

^^
About 5 or 6 years ago I was in a project and hired a neighbor kid, to be a second set of hands. He came from a pot smoking lazy home
his dad worked at KFC.
I was a bit surprised at how bright he was, I told him that his suggestions were pretty good. He told me that no one ever listened to him,
his grandfather always knew everything.

He had a job a subway at the time and I told him that he needed to get in to some type of trade. I mentioned him to my friend who is in to tile, they talked and he was hired and now makes more than anyone in his family ever had made. The one thing that this young man can't shake is his self image of being 'poor'.

When he doesn't know something or problems pop up, it's an excuse for failure. A person has to believe in themselves to succeed. Part of mentoring a person is to instill in them an image of self worth, a can do attitude.

If they have lived in a can't do environment for 18 years it's not just a simple turn around in thinking, it's more like changing the course of a large ship, it takes time.

I am hopeful that this young man will adjust his thinking to a positive or at least non defeatist mode and that if he has children they will be better off than he was. It's a generation process.

 

[Dominus]

Or maybe we can acknowledge that, outside of technological bursts and sporadic upticks, for the most part the "born poor die poor, born rich die rich" stagnation of the upward climb has been consistently difficult across all demographics and regions and is certainly more complex than just "Rich people work super hard and poor people don't oh and also their families are shit." People like to go "Bu bu but Steve Jobs bu bu bu Bill Gates" as if going from poor to quadrillionaire is a realistic, achievable standard and a matter of a mere spit-shine and some good old fashioned hard work. economics experts have agreed for years that the average person is going to die in the same tax bracket they were born into, it is the height of arrogance to use one's self as some sort of template for everybody else and to insult anyone who hasn't matched your level of achievement and security. It's intellectually lazy, dishonest, anti-poor propoganda fed from politicians who work tirelessly to make sure their rich buddies get richer and everyone else be damned. You telling me someone born to poverty can just as easily "make it" as the child of, say, rich politicians or celebrities-- who will maintain their wealth not because of trust funds and obscenely wealthy parents but because they just worked harder?

Against my better judgement, I peeked. Every sentence in this post is strawman. Nicely done.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

A person has to believe in themselves to succeed.

It only works like that in Disney movies, all these "tie yourself up by your bootstraps" speeches sound good on memes but reality just isn't that simple. And I'm still not buying that billionaires are billionaires because they simple had more motivation and work ethic, there are so many examples of how untrue that is, oeef generational wealth and the old boys' system that it's not even funny.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Against my better judgement, I peeked. Every sentence in this post is strawman. Nicely done.

And your speeches about magical wealth landing in the laps of everyone who is simply motivated enough is supposed to be reality?

 

[Dominus]

^^
About 5 or 6 years ago I was in a project and hired a neighbor kid, to be a second set of hands. He came from a pot smoking lazy home
his dad worked at KFC.
I was a bit surprised at how bright he was, I told him that his suggestions were pretty good. He told me that no one ever listened to him,
his grandfather always knew everything.

He had a job a subway at the time and I told him that he needed to get in to some type of trade. I mentioned him to my friend who is in to tile, they talked and he was hired and now makes more than anyone in his family ever had made. The one thing that this young man can't shake is his self image of being 'poor'.

When he doesn't know something or problems pop up, it's an excuse for failure. A person has to believe in themselves to succeed. Part of mentoring a person is to instill in them an image of self worth, a can do attitude.

If they have lived in a can't do environment for 18 years it's not just a simple turn around in thinking, it's more like changing the course of a large ship, it takes time.

I am hopeful that this young man will adjust his thinking to a positive or at least non defeatist mode and that if he has children they will be better off than he was. It's a generation process.

Hence, I have been arguing for mentorship programs and such for years.

If anyone remembers, last year I got into an argument with MDL. He said he gives money to panhandlers because it makes him feel good. I said that was the problem with giving money to the poor. Outside from making you feel good, it does little else. I then told him about how on occasions I take in homeless young guys and try to push them to be self reliant. So far, I've had 50/50 success rate. Some turned back to their old self defeatist attitudes and some actually worked extra long hours, got their own places, and moved on from there. Anyway, being MDL, he did not believe anyone was capable of actually putting up with others.

I never said it was easy. It takes a lot of patience. The one universal behavior I've observed is they will resist and even hate you for trying to get them to change habits. These guys are masters at burning bridges.

I know I come across on here as arrogant. At this point in my life, I don't care anymore. I just know that giving money to the poor and not make them earn it is about the worst thing we can do.

Regardless of what people think, there is a recipe that works. My family used it and it worked. White families everywhere used it and it works. Black families, brown families, pink families, etc. Instead of expanding welfare programs, we as a society need to start focusing on changing the family culture that abhors success. The fact that you have to constantly remind people you're not a braggart when talking about your achievements tells me there is a problem with societal attitudes on this. In this case, the fear of hurting people's feelings seem to trump realistic goals and methods.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Hence, I have been arguing for mentorship programs and such for years.

If anyone remembers, last year I got into an argument with MDL. He said he gives money to panhandlers because it makes him feel good. I said that was the problem with giving money to the poor. Outside from making you feel good, it does little else. I then told him about how on occasions I take in homeless young guys and try to push them to be self reliant. So far, I've had 50/50 success rate. Some turned back to their old self defeatist attitudes and some actually worked extra long hours, got their own places, and moved on from there. Anyway, being MDL, he did not believe anyone was capable of actually putting up with others.

I never said it was easy. It takes a lot of patience. The one universal behavior I've observed is they will resist and even hate you for trying to get them to change habits. These guys are masters at burning bridges.

I know I come across on here as arrogant. At this point in my life, I don't care anymore. I just know that giving money to the poor and not make them earn it is about the worst thing we can do.

Regardless of what people think, there is a recipe that works. My family used it and it worked. White families everywhere used it and it works. Black families, brown families, pink families, etc. Instead of expanding welfare programs, we as a society need to start focusing on changing the family culture that abhors success. The fact that you have to constantly remind people you're not a braggart when talking about your achievements tells me there is a problem with societal attitudes on this. In this case, the fear of hurting people's feelings seem to trump realistic goals and methods.

The family culture that abhors success? Where do you get this from? Recipe for success? What intro pep talk to a pyramid scheme did you hear that in?

"Giving money" is something the govt does every day, and not just to the poor, though the poor are demonized to the nth degree while the rich run off with their "welfare" unjudged and uncriticized. Your stories of lazy people living off the gubment defy statistics that have been available for years-- most people MOST people use that program intermittently for temporary assistance, by most I mean a majority which sort of flies in the face of the welfare queen facade you [and Reagan] are trying to construct.

But by all means, with your sure-fire recipe you should be traveling across the country inspiring people with your Disneyesque quasi-inspirational jargon, kinda like The Secret did. Results pending.

 

[peeonme]

It only works like that in Disney movies, all these "tie yourself up by your bootstraps" speeches sound good on memes but reality just isn't that simple. And I'm still not buying that billionaires are billionaires because they simple had more motivation and work ethic, there are so many examples of how untrue that is, oeef generational wealth and the old boys' system that it's not even funny.

One thing is for sure, if a person says, 'I can't do that', they are right.

 

[nyctopgam]

Base it on local market rate for housing.

 

[Latimer]

We need to bring back workhouses.

 

[peeonme]

We need to bring back workhouses.

As I have told others in times past, life is cyclical. It is an ongoing cycle of ups and downs. Good time and some not so good times.
Measuring success has little to do with the balance of one's bank account and more to do with living a balanced life. I have known happy
well balanced people that were wealthy and some who were not wealthy by traditional standards.

The unhappiest people that I have known are the wealthy that despise the poor and the poor that despise the wealthy. Coveting an-other's possessions leads to a bitter resentful existence. Envy is a poison.

In like fashion to hold those to whom life hasn't been so generous to in disdain by calling them lazy to comfort one's conscience because we have exploited them by paying them low wages out of our fortune is shallow at best and a pox on one's own soul.

This thread was not meant to be about welfare, but rather the value of a human being. What his or her 8 or 10 hours a day are worth.
A full time worker, that's 40 hours, should be able to afford at least a meager form of lodging, clothing, food and... yes health care.

We in America have become desensitized to the plight of our fellow man. The homeless are invisible. The working poor just haven't tried hard enough. The jobless don't look hard enough.

If we need to justify our wealth, our fortune and our human comfort that may well be in excess by our critique of the masses in dire straights it says little for our compassion as humans.