Muslim terror across Europe

[Jack Springer]

I suggest you do the following little experiment and see what happens.

1. You walk up to a policeman in Los Angeles, or Idaho Falls for that matter, and say "Hello sir, good morning, my name is SoulSearcher and I am a homosexual".

2. Then you do the same thing in any country with a muslim majority.

SoulSeacher -- I'd really like you to answer Zeno's questions. Thank you.

 

[Corny]

 

[altlover85]

There is reason to fear, but we must also keep in mind that sexual orientation is not a universal concept, homo, hetero, etc, are recent Western inventions. Of course gays exist in all cultures, but in many cultures, people are considered just sexual, not homo or hetero, not as a matter of an "orientation". So we have to be careful when we impose our own standards on other cultures. Equality will have to be pushed for from within their own cultures. And we can certainly support gays internationally as we can. But not by cheering on on immoral wars and wholesale demonisation. In other words, we cannot justify violating human rights of Muslims in the name of human rights, which is what I notice some gays here doing. Bomb them because they don't have gay rights.

I don't think we should be at war with them, but then I don't think we should be involved in the affairs of many countries. I'm more of an isolationist at heart.

If you say that people in other countries are just sexual and don't have an orientation, that would be fine with me, if no one had an issue with two men or two women living together and having sex with one another. As far as I know, homosexual sex is illegal in countries where Islamic law reigns supreme. That makes it more of an issue than just accepting cultural differences to me. I also understand that change may have to come from within, but that doesn't mean I think that that's right or fair.

I don't think I would personally do anything about it, save for getting out of the Middle East and not being so independent on them for oil. I think the less we are involved in their affairs, the better. I don't know how reasonable or realistic that is.

I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.

 

[SoulSearcher]

I don't think we should be at war with them, but then I don't think we should be involved in the affairs of many countries. I'm more of an isolationist at heart.

If you say that people in other countries are just sexual and don't have an orientation, that would be fine with me, if no one had an issue with two men or two women living together and having sex with one another. As far as I know, homosexual sex is illegal in countries where Islamic law reigns supreme. That makes it more of an issue than just accepting cultural differences to me. I also understand that change may have to come from within, but that doesn't mean I think that that's right or fair.

I don't think I would personally do anything about it, save for getting out of the Middle East and not being so independent on them for oil. I think the less we are involved in their affairs, the better. I don't know how reasonable or realistic that is.

I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.

I'm pretty much the same, but additionally, I'm strictly against Empire and imperialism, so while I believe strongly in women's rights and gay rights everywhere, I cannot have that be used as the pretext or justification to the Empire's home front for invasions and wholesale obliteration of lands and peoples abroad. I'm from Israel, and while I appreciate American support for Israel, I realise that almost all of the Arab regimes are dictatorships of one form or another, and 18 out of 22 of them are directly armed, supported and funded by the US. The US politicises human rights and it has come to be used as a foreign policy tool, rather than in genuine concern for peoples abroad. As far as Islamism is concerned, it is the US that had helped weaken all the secular and anti-Islamist governments in the Middle East (Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria) because they were socialist leaning, and that in turn brought in more religious parties to power to fill in the vacuum. Women and gays should resist participating in the Empire's PR efforts to justify adventures abroad IMO.

I don't think I would personally do anything about it, save for getting out of the Middle East and not being so independent on them for oil. I think the less we are involved in their affairs, the better. I don't know how reasonable or realistic that is.

It is urgently required actually. The US has troops in over a 100 countries as I write this.
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

 

[SoulSearcher]

SoulSeacher -- I'd really like you to answer Zeno's questions. Thank you.

Read my message immediately above and test your comprehension skills. His questions are irrelevant as a reply to my original message. Zeno and I don't have equal rights in our respective countries, and that has nothing to do with Muslims.

Besides, why would any sane person go about advertising that they like to put his penis up someone else's rectum? These are things no one should go around telling police officers, their jobs are difficult as it is. And if this is such a great concern of people of your kind, get your government to stop arming and supporting almost all of the dictatorships in Muslim countries that oppress their own people, not just the unfriendly ones.

 

[palemale]

That most Muslim societies are reactionary, and dangerously so, is not really debatable. I have theories in abundance for why this is the case, but honestly can't say what will cure these problems. The best we can do is not make them worse (not that I have full confidence in what won't make them worse, either).

Nevertheless, I do know this. Marginalizing Muslim minorities in western countries will not improve things. That means naked displays of public bigotry, job discrimination, violence, heavy handed police tactics, and other similarly misguided policies and reactions will not make things better.

Of course, turning a blind eye to the possibility that some people in Muslim communities in the west may turn to terrorism is also not an option because terrorist attacks, especially if they come from within, only breeds backlash and the kinds of actions I condemn above.

With these caveats, vigilant police activities that respect the civil and legal rights of all citizens must be paramount. In addition, ensuring that all citizens, including Muslims and non-Muslims, have access to a good education and employment opportunities, as well as the same right to worship as do all other religions, is vital.

See, wasn't that easy?

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm still trying to understand why all of a sudden after 9 years Muslim / Islam suddenly became a serious issue. The only reason I can think of is the Republicans needed some group to demonize to help them in the 2010 elections so they started up with Muslims.

They're used gays so often and now that homosexuality is becoming more accepted they decided to demagogue using Muslims. Hey, after all some Muslim extremists carried out the 9/11 attacks so point your finger at them and say "bad".

Demonizing Muslim people is only going to distance us & anger them. No wonder why more and more are hating Americans.

Are you saying that Europeans are getting upset with Muslims because of 9/11? And because the Republicans don't like them?

It is urgently required actually. The US has troops in over a 100 countries as I write this.
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

The number is definitely over 125, probably above 150 (which is what Wikipedia gives as of 2007).

I'll ask sort of the same as above: are you suggesting that the problem with Muslims in Europe is a product of American actions?

 

[bankside]

Read my message immediately above and test your comprehension skills. His questions are irrelevant as a reply to my original message. Zeno and I don't have equal rights in our respective countries, and that has nothing to do with Muslims.

Well, I have equal rights in my country, and just last week, (Muslim) activists told (Muslim) voters in a smear campaign not to vote for a gay candidate for mayor of Toronto because his wife is a man. And now Toronto has a drug-using drunk-driving homophobic teabagging asshole for mayor. That one bit of homophobia didn't make the difference on its own, but that kind of smear had no place in my country when it was peopled mostly by Christians, and it has no place in my country now either. If that means keeping out immigrants who hold a certain kind of stone-age belief system, I'm 100% okay with that.

On the other hand, Calgary just elected a (Muslim) mayor, or at least a mayor who is the son of Muslims, who is clearly progressive and not caught up in imposing any kind of theocratic morality on a modern city, because he is a part of that modernity. I'm 100% okay with that too. He isn't about to send in the Calgary Stampede Showband to impose Sharia law. It just isn't going to happen.

I'm afraid I just don't buy this cultural relativist crap for a second. There are standards in a civilized countries, and they matter, and they can be exported or even imposed in places which fail, and it has nothing to do with imperialism. Some Muslims uphold the standards, and some don't. The ones who don't can't protect their ignorance under a veil of "cultural freedom."

 

[Kulindahr]

Well, I have equal rights in my country, and just last week, (Muslim) activists told (Muslim) voters in a smear campaign not to vote for a gay candidate for mayor of Toronto because his wife is a man. And now Toronto has a drug-using drunk-driving homophobic teabagging asshole for mayor. That one bit of homophobia didn't make the difference on its own, but that kind of smear had no place in my country when it was peopled mostly by Christians, and it has no place in my country now either. If that means keeping out immigrants who hold a certain kind of stone-age belief system, I'm 100% okay with that.

On the other hand, Calgary just elected a (Muslim) mayor, or at least a mayor who is the son of Muslims, who is clearly progressive and not caught up in imposing any kind of theocratic morality on a modern city, because he is a part of that modernity. I'm 100% okay with that too. He isn't about to send in the Calgary Stampede Showband to impose Sharia law. It just isn't going to happen.

I'm afraid I just don't buy this cultural relativist crap for a second. There are standards in a civilized countries, and they matter, and they can be exported or even imposed in places which fail, and it has nothing to do with imperialism. Some Muslims uphold the standards, and some don't. The ones who don't can't protect their ignorance under a veil of "cultural freedom."

== == == ==

 

[SoulSearcher]

Well, I have equal rights in my country, and just last week, (Muslim) activists told (Muslim) voters in a smear campaign not to vote for a gay candidate for mayor of Toronto because his wife is a man. And now Toronto has a drug-using drunk-driving homophobic teabagging asshole for mayor. That one bit of homophobia didn't make the difference on its own, but that kind of smear had no place in my country when it was peopled mostly by Christians, and it has no place in my country now either. If that means keeping out immigrants who hold a certain kind of stone-age belief system, I'm 100% okay with that.

Well, you are entitled to your beliefs and they as Canadians are entitled to push for their beliefs. I'm sure you are well aware of what the far right in the US, which largely are Christians are pushing for and their stance and active attempts to reverse any progress for gay rights in the US, and that has nothing to do with any Muslims, it is funded by Mormons, and other Christian denominations. I'm not sure how well the white invaders of Canada respected the culture, laws and norms of the indigenous people, and I suspect it was a mixed bag, as it always will be for new immigrants. They dealt with it, and now you will have to deal with it within the framework of the democratic process.

I'm afraid I just don't buy this cultural relativist crap for a second. There are standards in a civilized countries, and they matter, and they can be exported or even imposed in places which fail, and it has nothing to do with imperialism. Some Muslims uphold the standards, and some don't. The ones who don't can't protect their ignorance under a veil of "cultural freedom."

You can believe what you will, as do I, but most mainstream academics would differ with you. Previous attempts at "exporting" such "civilised" standards by the "civilised" to "uncivilised" lands usually turned the "civilised" into savages themselves. How would one define "civilised", the same way the whites did when they first came to America (while ethnic cleansing, forced removal, etc., was "civilised"), is civilised like the white South Africans in Apartheid while the blacks they treated as subhuman "civilised"? Is uncivilised September 11 terrorists, but the direct actions, invasions by "civilised" countries leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and turning millions into refugees "civilised". I obviously greatly differ. And I have previously said, that we do need human rights for everyone to be forwarded globally, and I belief strongly in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But my problem is when human rights is politicised and used as a tool for strategic, economic and military interests, rather than for genuine concerns, as is the case with the US. And that IS imperialism. Friendly tyrants can be armed and their state terrorism can be fully supported by "civilised" countries, but when it comes to unfriendly regimes, then we talk about their human rights records, etc. Now that IS ignorance on the part of the citizens of "civilised" countries who don't see the blatant hypocrisy of their own governments. Guess which countries were the 4 largest recipients of US weapons last year? Human rights, freedom, liberty, etc., are just buzz words that help with the cognitive dissonance needs of the zombies high and fat on cheeseburgers, that way they don't have to question Empire. No credible and educated person who is aware of US foreign policy can ever buy into that crap. These essentialised dichotomies of good and bad, civilised and uncivilised are quite aged, they facilitated colonialism, and is only a mask.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Are you saying that Europeans are getting upset with Muslims because of 9/11? And because the Republicans don't like them?



The number is definitely over 125, probably above 150 (which is what Wikipedia gives as of 2007).

I'll ask sort of the same as above: are you suggesting that the problem with Muslims in Europe is a product of American actions?

No grandpa, I was speaking in relation to the problems that a lot of Americans have with American Muslims and in regards to the recent surge in Islamophobic incidences in the US. And if you have been keeping up with the news of Europe, there is an increasing communion of the xenophobic and racist far right of Europe with the American far right and elements of the tea bagger movement here.

 

[EastMed]

When was the last time Christian fundamentalists flew planes into the Burj Khalifa in Dubai?

True, they don't fly planes into buildings. They invade other countries and trash them to pieces.

(This is my first post: please be kind to me!)

 

[SoulSearcher]

True, they don't fly planes into buildings. They invade other countries and trash them to pieces.

(This is my first post: please be kind to me!)

And they sit in rooms in Colorado and shoot drones that mostly kill civilians, just like in video games!

Welcome! Don't worry about the neo-cons here. Its a vibrant community of every political ideology you can imagine.

 

[bankside]

True, they don't fly planes into buildings. They invade other countries and trash them to pieces.

(This is my first post: please be kind to me!)

Hi! Welcome aboard.

Much like the one above, THIS is a good point:

And I have previously said, that we do need human rights for everyone to be forwarded globally, and I belief strongly in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But my problem is when human rights is politicised and used as a tool for strategic, economic and military interests, rather than for genuine concerns, as is the case with the US. And that IS imperialism.

THIS is not:

Well, you are entitled to your beliefs and they as Canadians are entitled to push for their beliefs.

No one is entitled to use their religious superstitions about homosexuality to divert the course of an election for civic office. It is primitive and, yes, uncivilized. Objectively uncivilized. Too many people, Europeans in fact, died to advance the Enlightenment and the secular state for us to accept a return to the barbarism of naked piety that defined Europe, and the world, for centuries.

If someone wants to stone the fags, or own his wife, or keep his daughters trapped in a black bag, or have their clitorises cut off, I don't give a damn whether he lives or dies in some backwoods hole somewhere out there in some shitty failed state, let alone worry about admitting him to my country as a refugee, where he can experience the "cultural fulfillment" of being able to "push for his beliefs" in MY political system.

Modernity and the Enlightenment put Christianity in its place, and other religions should expect no less. If we fail to hold people to a minimum civilized standard, parallel societies will arise in the west. And, though I do not advocate this, it will lead to pogroms of one sort or another, again in Europe, and in North America. I can tell you as a gay secular man I do not intend to be on the wrong end of the pogrom.

So lets all avoid that unhappy future, by putting right a few imminent wrongs:
Support this:
http://www.iheu.org/belief-groups-unite-oppose-un-blasphemy-law
Support this:
http://www.icgi.org/

Support this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,559021,00.html

Support this and this and this, not this or this or this.

And while we're at it, support this: http://www.transparency.org/
but not this: http://www.africa-union.org/

Those are all some practical things we can do which will improve civilization for its own ends, not for some imperialist cause. In fact, doing those things will actually empower the world, bring a better balance of power, and undermine any imperialist tendencies of the [STRIKE]west[/STRIKE] US Republican Party and hegemonic American and European corporate interests.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Hi! Welcome aboard.

Much like the one above, THIS is a good point:


THIS is not:


No one is entitled to use their religious superstitions about homosexuality to divert the course of an election for civic office. It is primitive and, yes, uncivilized. Objectively uncivilized. Too many people, Europeans in fact, died to advance the Enlightenment and the secular state for us to accept a return to the barbarism of naked piety that defined Europe, and the world, for centuries.

If someone wants to stone the fags, or own his wife, or keep his daughters trapped in a black bag, or have their clitorises cut off, I don't give a damn whether he lives or dies in some backwoods hole somewhere out there in some shitty failed state, let alone worry about admitting him to my country as a refugee, where he can experience the "cultural fulfillment" of being able to "push for his beliefs" in MY political system.

Modernity and the Enlightenment put Christianity in its place, and other religions should expect no less. If we fail to hold people to a minimum civilized standard, parallel societies will arise in the west. And, though I do not advocate this, it will lead to pogroms of one sort or another, again in Europe, and in North America. I can tell you as a gay secular man I do not intend to be on the wrong end of the pogrom.

So lets all avoid that unhappy future, by putting right a few imminent wrongs:
Support this:
http://www.iheu.org/belief-groups-unite-oppose-un-blasphemy-law
Support this:
http://www.icgi.org/

Support this:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,559021,00.html

Support this and this and this, not this or this or this.

And while we're at it, support this: http://www.transparency.org/
but not this: http://www.africa-union.org/

Those are all some practical things we can do which will improve civilization for its own ends, not for some imperialist cause. In fact, doing those things will actually empower the world, bring a better balance of power, and undermine any imperialist tendencies of the [STRIKE]west[/STRIKE] US Republican Party and hegemonic American and European corporate interests.

I'm largely with you. Thanks for sharing the links. I'm from Israel, and almost everyone in my family is against the illegal settlements. But I don't understand what you have against the AU?

 

[kallipolis]

While we correctly acknowledge the extremist elements in a few religions for their inhumane campaign to demonise the homosexual person, it is also worth noting that the most humiliating campaign against the gay person during the 20th century was conducted by an evil political ideology.:

I quote:

Between 1933–45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of which some 50,000 were officially sentenced[citation needed]. Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000[citation needed] of those sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps. It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Ruediger Lautman believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%. Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an unusually cruel manner by their captors, and were also persecuted by their fellow inmates. This was a factor in the high death rate for homosexuals, compared to other groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust

 

[SoulSearcher]

While we correctly acknowledge the extremist elements in a few religions for their inhumane campaign to demonise the homosexual person, it is also worth noting that the most humiliating campaign against the gay person during the 20th century was conducted by an evil political ideology.:

I quote:

Between 1933–45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of which some 50,000 were officially sentenced[citation needed]. Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000[citation needed] of those sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps. It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Ruediger Lautman believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%. Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an unusually cruel manner by their captors, and were also persecuted by their fellow inmates. This was a factor in the high death rate for homosexuals, compared to other groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust

Whats scary is that there is a strong resurgence in almost all Western European countries in Neo-Nazi groups in the last 10 years, many of them using far right political parties as their bases. I think currently Russia has the most Neo-Nazis in absolute numbers (which is ironic because the Nazis regarded Slavs as degenerated), but their numbers are increasing in Western Europe as well.

 

[kallipolis]

Whats scary is that there is a strong resurgence in almost all Western European countries in Neo-Nazi groups in the last 10 years, many of them using far right political parties as their bases. I think currently Russia has the most Neo-Nazis in absolute numbers (which is ironic because the Nazis regarded Slavs as degenerated), but their numbers are increasing in Western Europe as well.

I have personally attended,and witnessed neo Nazi parades in Germany. I also note that the counter demonstrations that confront such Nazi style parades, always outnumber the Nazis by ten to one. The German police services are well organised and well able to subdue those extremist organisations that attempt to destabilise German society.

Germany's democratic institutions are sufficiently robust to cope with the skin head mentality that infests so many young people masquerading as Nazis. Youth unemployment is often the catalyst of support for the Nazi groups. Russia's totalitarian government also recognises that it needs to keep a lid on those right wing extremist organisations that appear to pose as protectors of Mother Russia's sacred values.

I have no fear of a repeat of the 1930s rise to power of Nazism, and Fascism.

 

[bankside]

While we correctly acknowledge the extremist elements in a few religions for their inhumane campaign to demonise the homosexual person, it is also worth noting that the most humiliating campaign against the gay person during the 20th century was conducted by an evil political ideology.:

kallipolis, i suspect you raise this perhaps in response to my point, or at least on reflection of it. And though i chose my words with deliberate care, i suspect what I was trying to convey may have been coloured by other debates on similar issues. If I may clarify something I said:

Modernity and the Enlightenment put Christianity in its place, and other religions should expect no less.

I meant that quite literally. Modernity has put (some) religions in their place, and you may take from that that I concede there is a proper place for religion in society. The Enlightenment improved society because it curtailed the excesses of religion, and in so doing it has freed people from tyranny, but it has also allowed the more nuanced and thoughtful, and productive, threads of religious discourse to thrive.

Ultimately, I think those religious ideas are still in error, but I wholeheartedly endorse the idea that modernity has given religion its best shot at making its case, that it is proper to examine the question in the private sphere (rather than in public office), and that society can benefit from this exercise.

I consider the Enlightenment a success not because it eliminated religion (it didn't, nor did it try to), but because it literally did put it in its place.

I'm largely with you. Thanks for sharing the links. I'm from Israel, and almost everyone in my family is against the illegal settlements. But I don't understand what you have against the AU?

Corruption and impotence.

I have no fear of a repeat of the 1930s rise to power of Nazism, and Fascism.

I do. I think having no fear of that scenario is frankly a risk in allowing it to re-emerge. I do not think Chancellor Merkel is a part of that re-emergence. Indeed I have every reason to believe she is a patriot and a democrat who would give her own life if required to prevent any re-emergence of a reconstituted naziism. I do think though, her articulation of clear and reasonable demands of immigrants, is necessary to prevent such re-emergence of fascist tendencies. Blithe indifference or "benign neglect" of the wrongheaded thinking of certain growing immigrant groups is a sure way for a pluralistic society to fail in spectacularly horrific ways.

 

[EastMed]

Thanks guys for the welcome.