Muslim terror across Europe

[bankside]

johann, i don't see the link.

What I take from the same series of events that you recount is that, simply, Erich Honecker wasn't as scary as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or for that matter, Jiang Zemin. I don't think you can assume that the people of Islamic theocracies are any less motivated to rid themselves of bad government than the East Germans were in 1989. They're all just waiting for the best chance for change without getting massacred.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yet if you take the whole picture, the DDR didn't do too badly. In fact, economically it was better off than much of the rest of the world. In spite of this fact, at the first available moment, the East German citizens ditched the regime.

At the same time, fundamentalist Islamic countries are worse by almost every barometer. Poorer, and far more repressive than the DDR was—yet the regimes stand. If anything, the denizens of these regimes will gladly give their lives for Islam. I've watched grown men beat themselves with chains, to the point of torture, blood coursing down their backs—all in the name of Islam.

Good -- and scary! -- observations.

I recall reading numerous times that the DDR was envied by most of the Warsaw Pact for its relative prosperity... and worried over by the Russians for its relative efficiency.

stop spreading this nonsense. the ddr was massively subsidies by russian oil. their economical system was a total farce with 3-4 people on a job of 1 and a lot more eyewash and window-dressing. and that's why the soviet downfall was the beginning of the end of it.

His point wasn't nonsense, though your response really is. Why the DDR was better economically than so many others isn't relevant to it -- they could have had a goose laying golden eggs thither and yon behind it all, and his point would be the same: they ditched the oppression.

I've read that "of course" the reason was that although they were about the best economy behind the rusty Curtain, they envied the prosperity of the West. Johann's observation casts serious doubt on that as a general truth.

 

[Kulindahr]

johann, i don't see the link.

What I take from the same series of events that you recount is that, simply, Erich Honecker wasn't as scary as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or for that matter, Jiang Zemin. I don't think you can assume that the people of Islamic theocracies are any less motivated to rid themselves of bad government than the East Germans were in 1989. They're all just waiting for the best chance for change without getting massacred.

There's another element to it: when the rulers themselves are the people you've been taught since diaper days are God's representatives, the threshold is higher. In East Germany everyone knew that the rulers were really representatives of a hated empire -- something those rulers knew, too, which is why they were a constant source of worry to Moscow: every DDR leader had to do enough to show his puppet strings weren't a complete set.. until finally the people decided it didn't matter, they just weren't playing the game at all any more.

But the danger to the leaders is also higher just because of the threshold's altitude: when people rebel against a somewhat civilized system (despite its oppression, the DDR was still in that category), the vitriol unleashed against the leaders boils only so high, because the heat is a function of the height of the threshold. When people decide to throw in the towel on a game such as that in Iran, however, the anger directed against the Stasi may look like warm bathwater against the potential scalding deluge that could hit the clerics.

The other aspect is that of betrayal: when the spokesmen of God are determined to have been false, there is no limit to how high the retribution of the betrayed may go. It would not at all surprise me to see, in our lifetimes, black-robed religious fascists hung or even burned in Tehran.


In a way this will be a test of what Islam really has at its core: the restraint of the people will be the measure.

 

[bankside]

In a way this will be a test of what Islam really has at its core: the restraint of the people will be the measure.

Well, now we're well outside of Europe, so I won't belabour too much but to point out that the people of Iran can opt for a different curriculum entirely when they take this test. Europe did.

 

[Kulindahr]

I remember reading something interesting concerning all of this.

It was noticed that, the further up the ladder you went with Communism, the more jaded and cynical the leaders were. It was all about "beating the system", and making the best with what you had.

By contrast, with Islam, it was noticed that the further up the ladder you went, the more sincere the leaders were. The upper rung quite literally is willing—no, glad—to give their lives for their beloved religion.

It's something to think about....

I'll just point out that communism had its true believers -- and they were hated by everyone when it came apart. When someone conniving and opportunistic leads you astray, well, that's a common human thing, which to some extent means understanding. When the true believer leads you astray... no mercy.

Well, now we're well outside of Europe, so I won't belabour too much but to point out that the people of Iran can opt for a different curriculum entirely when they take this test. Europe did.

Except that it won't be confined to Iran: those who believe in the reign of Allah are the sort driving the terror against their own in Europe -- and where they're found, the overthrow is also likely to happen just as violently as "at home". Iran as a country is just a sort of epitomal representative of Islamism; it is not a vessel inside of which any turmoil of an end of Islamism might be contained.

In fact, in those locations in Europe where governments are allowing Islamic colonialism of their own countries by letting Muslims be oppressed by shari'a, I'd expect violence against the governments which do so -- as co-oppressors.

 

[iiiset]

do I really need to pull out a bible and look up what christians are not supposed to like?

so fuck them both.

That Christianity is bad doesn't make Islam any less bad.

 

[Corny]

yeah well that was kinda my point ..

 

[Corny]

I've read that "of course" the reason was that although they were about the best economy behind the rusty Curtain, they envied the prosperity of the West. Johann's observation casts serious doubt on that as a general truth.

About the best economy? so why did they fail miserably?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_East_Germany#Coffee_crisis.2C_1976.E2.80.9379

 

[Edward Twinkletoes]

Terrorists don't have to be people blowing things up or wielding guns. Terrorism is anything that strikes terror in order to change people's behavior.

Yikes! You're going down a scary road with that. Under that definition, a scowl could be terrorism.

 

[Corny]

I always believed it was because of the Wall. People trapped behind a wall become claustrophobic, and like any animal in a cage, seek freedom. What's worse, the East German authorities were getting ready to seal off the border completely.

but all that happened AFTER they were already failing economically.
the reason cannot be the result of the cause

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Who said it was muslims insulting short-skirt-wearing women? Or that they would do so BECAUSE they are muslims rather than any other reason?

That was me.

And it wasn't the kind of tolerant, modern, westernized muslims who make up the majority of people in Morocco and Turkey. It was the kind of retrograde fundamentalist semi-literate goat-fucking mountain hicks that we chose to import from those countries in the 1960s and 1970s, and their grandchildren who increasingly want to be different from the rest of the country they were born in, and cultivate traditions that are now less dominant in their grandparents' countries of origin.

 

[Kulindahr]

Worth a listen:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdRfT76s7UQ[/ame]

 

[xxxsultanxxxx]

When was the last time Christian fundamentalists flew planes into the Burj Khalifa in Dubai?

A christian country bombed my fucking capital.. is that good enough for you... [Text: Removed by Moderator]

why? cuz an American president was inspired by his God to wage a war.

 

[xxxsultanxxxx]

Worth a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdRfT76s7UQ

bullshit.. i can bring whack job rabbis and pastors too.. the western media loves these nuts.. gives them more air time..

 

[Kulindahr]

A christian country bombed my fucking capital.. is that good enough for you... [Text: Removed by Moderator]

why? cuz an American president was inspired by his God to wage a war.

The two aren't entirely comparable.

Though I have sometimes thought the terrorists must envy Bush, with his capability of carrying out their wildest dreams.

 

[Kulindahr]

bullshit.. i can bring whack job rabbis and pastors too.. the western media loves these nuts.. gives them more air time..

So basically you concede that there is a problem with Islamic terror in Europe that seeks to force all Muslims to become militant and support their violence against their host countries.

 

[Kulindahr]

it's sad to see gay men who have to fight for basic human rights because of awful and usually untrue stereotypes use other awful and usually untrue stereotypes to hate another group of people...

Way to go guys...

Think we can sink any lower?

So because there are stereotypes, you want to give terrorists a pass?

Your argument here is like saying we should be okay with haters who want gays back in cages, just because there are stereotypes about the party the haters are (mostly) in.

Ridiculous.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ I don't think the Americans understand the seriousness of the situation. (This is one reason I'm politically an Independent, btw. The Democrats are too soft on crime.)

My dad once sent me some very scary photos of the Muslim Festival in London one year. The participants, turban-wearing all, held signs such as "Death to Britain", "Britain is next", "Down with Democracy", and such.

It was frightening.

I wish I had footage... in many "Cinco de Mayo" parades in the southwestern U.S. states especially, banners of a similar sort can be seen: "Out With U.S.", "Take Back Our Land", and others focused on a refusal to integrate into American society and an aim of switching all the long-ago Spanish lands back to Mexico.

Having suffered through a bit of abuse while growing up, I see that and cringe -- but I see what the Islamists are doing, and want to get out my rifles. And when I see the "Death to Britain" signs, I wonder where are the cops to arrest the traitors (or invaders -- someone with such a sign is either a traitor or a foreign subversive).


And the worst tragedy is that Muslims who found a new place to build new lives free of small-minded ideological tyranny are being re-enslaved.

 

[Corny]

My dad once sent me some very scary photos of the Muslim Festival in London one year. The participants, turban-wearing all, held signs such as "Death to Britain", "Britain is next", "Down with Democracy", and such.

do you also believe that everybody in the middle east runs around with an american flag to burn? coincidentally especially when cameras are around.

 

[Kulindahr]

do you also believe that everybody in the middle east runs around with an american flag to burn? coincidentally especially when cameras are around.

So terrorism is okay because not everyone is a terrorist?