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Muslims. How do people feel about them?

to the best of my knowlege, i live next door to a muslim family.
as far as i know, they don't bother me, and i hope i'm not bothering them.

if you are on the extream left i'm sure we will not agree on issues. if you are on the extream right i'm sure we will not agree on issues.

growing up roman catholic, there wasn't much told to me of other faiths, either christian or non- christian.
so it has taken me many years of independant study, to learn things that the roman branch of catholism didn't teach me.

i'm still learning about islam in general. it may be a few more years before i really know what i feel about muslims / islam.
 
darknite12 said:
The problem with discussions like these, especially ones titled "Muslims. How do people feel about them?" immediately seek to exclude the very people who should be part of the discussion: Muslims. The aim of this discussion appears to be to talk about Muslims as if they aren't even in the (virtual) room. Sounds like a pretty one-sided discussion to me...
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Muslims are contributing to this thread. Reference the posts of BearSalam.
 
Terror is a fact, not an ideology, and we must be very clear in condemning it (from all backgrounds). But addressing the reality of terror does not demand nurturing fear or hatred. Extremists on both sides (from every way of life), though, have a vested interest in promoting a permanent state of fear. The Bush administration (for exemple) was nurturing this ideology of fear. some Muslims are nurturing it as well, saying the West doesn’t like Islam. Fear feeds more fear. If you as a Western citizen are obsessed with Muslim extremists, you are not going to trust other Muslims ; if a muslim is obsessed with the far-right parties, he is not going to trust any of his fellow citizens. Dialogue is the only way to push people to change. But it takes time.
 
BearSalam said:
Terror is a fact, not an ideology, and we must be very clear in condemning it (from all backgrounds). But addressing the reality of terror does not demand nurturing fear or hatred. Extremists on both sides (from every way of life), though, have a vested interest in promoting a permanent state of fear. The Bush administration (for exemple) was nurturing this ideology of fear. some Muslims are nurturing it as well, saying the West doesn’t like Islam. Fear feeds more fear. If you as a Western citizen are obsessed with Muslim extremists, you are not going to trust other Muslims ; if a muslim is obsessed with the far-right parties, he is not going to trust any of his fellow citizens. Dialogue is the only way to push people to change. But it takes time.
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over two thousand years and nothing has changed.
It is time for the UN to pass the law saying that religions are fairy tales stories.
 
Answering to some of the first posts.

Spain is really near several muslim countries. The problem there is not being gay or not. It comes with any kind of sexual behaviour. I would even say anything which implies pleasure. They drink tea and pretend not to have sex, they could be British.

But if you want to be thoroughly fucked I don't know better places than Morocco, Turkey or Tunisia. What you cannot is be Openly Gay, and show off and behave as if you lived in Ibiza, San Francisco or Amsterdam.

You got to look muslims with your muslim eyes, if that could only be possible. It's empathy.

Finally, answering the prime question, People in Spain are fond of muslims. They take part of our culture, they live in our vocabulary, on the other side we are not happy with poverty and terrorism.
And treatment to women seems to be, definitely the lost battle to the spanish public eye.
 
Telstra said:
over two thousand years and nothing has changed.
It is time for the UN to pass the law saying that religions are fairy tales stories.
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Nothing has changed? i was talking about dialogue, confrontation, sharing. These are our flaws. Just because someone is different from you or have a different philosophy of life or look for different answers in his spiritual quest does not make him inferior, mistaken or wrong. Poeple have the right to choose the faith they want, to believe in those "fairy tales" you say or to refute them. This is how people are and it part of the their free choice in life.

its like saying : well the UN will pass the law saying that homosexuality is wrong because they think its not right in their views and its a mistake (as you think its not right for people to beileve in something you don't). this is depriving people from what they are and from what they believe is just.
 
darknite12 said:
I don't disagree that there are Muslims like BearSalam who are part of the discussion - I noticed his posts before I made my comment. My point is that the initial question sought to exclude.
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That would be your highly subjective interpretation, not shared by me.

Nevertheless you have clarified your earlier observation, for which I thank you.
 
Deandbn said:
All religions do that.
:badgrin:
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Bullshit!

Can a Christian man perform an "honor killing" of his daughters or his wife.

Do Christians topple stone walls on gays (or noose them) just for being gay?

In our country are adulterers stoned?
 
I agree with JB that any claims about the suffering of animals during slaughter should be evaluated on the basis of evidence, and not anti-religious ideology.

Kosher and halal slaughter can be performed professionally and with a minimum of pain to the animal; it can certainly be performed in a way which surpasses standards found in uncompassionate industrial models. Like stun-based slaughter, kosher and halal slaughter can be performed poorly. (One of the most wretched things I've ever viewed was a poorly performed kosher slaughter.) Yet there is nothing essentially flawed with the method even if the practice is rooted in religious culture.

If a cow's head is properly restrained the incision may cause less behavioral reaction than waving a hand in the face of the animal. The ASPCA provides schematics for slaughter pens that that help insure such practices are maintained. Aspirating blood is a problem. However, if kosher and halal slaughter practices are perfected, the animals should collapse rapidly without flailing or vocalizing. If anyone is interested in more of this sort of agricultural science I'm talking about, go here: www.grandin.com. I've linked to it in the past.
 
JohannBessler said:
To be fair, you'll never hear of a Muslim abusing an animal.
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(my emphasis)


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

OMFVG!* That would almost be funny ... :lol:

... if it weren't so naively, tragically, pathetically, uninformedly sad. :(

(Obviously, the word I really want to use here is 'ignorant' ... but that sort of language seems to count as 'flaming' here in a JUB 'no flame zone' [-X ... so I won' t say that ... as if 'flaming could ever be considered taboo on a a gay forum :lol:).


...PS, 'never' is a very powerful word ... certainly not one that should be used lightly, especially here on JUB's 'Religion, Spirituality & Philosophy'™ forum. ..|


* = Oh my fucking various gods/goddesses.
 
zoltanspawn said:
I agree with JB that any claims about the suffering of animals during slaughter should be evaluated on the basis of evidence, and not anti-religious ideology.
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By "evidence," do you mean pro-religious ideology? Or merely the assumption that something done in the name of a religion is ethical?

Incidentally, it would be a remarkable coincidence if two competing religions worked out the scientific basis for ethical slaughter so many centuries ago. I wonder if the results of a double-blind study were revealed to anyone whilst up a mountain or wandering in the desert or on a wingèd horse or something.

I wonder if anyone would care to explain how the British Veterinary Association is actually a front for anti-religious ideologues.
 
^No. I meant evidence. I did not cite any pro-religious ideology, I cited work by a professor of Animal Science from Colorado State University whose specialities include slaughter.

Incidentally aside, it's completely unremarkable that diverse (religious) cultures would arrive at the same conclusion that being nice to animals is a good thing.

For what it's worth, me and my dogs are thankful that a British veterinary association would take a conservative approach to the slaughter of livestock. I wasn't accusing them of anti-religious ideology. I was accusing you.
 
zoltanspawn said:
^No. I meant evidence. I did not cite any pro-religious ideology, I cited work by a professor of Animal Science from Colorado State University whose specialities include slaughter.

Incidentally aside, it's completely unremarkable that diverse (religious) cultures would arrive at the same conclusion that being nice to animals is a good thing.

For what it's worth, me and my dogs are thankful that a British veterinary association would take a conservative approach to the slaughter of livestock. I wasn't accusing them of anti-religious ideology. I was accusing you.
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Of course you were accusing me, and in the most hollow and unconvincing way possible, betraying your own biases.

Why on earth would I think that the British Veterinary Association would be able to make a valid science-based judgement regarding animal welfare and then base my opinion on that?

No; the real question is why do you think that sounds outlandish or ideological. I will repeat my challenge; tell us why the British Veterinary Association is acting out of ideological malice toward Muslim or Jewish people.

Incidental to your incident, you were making the point that this kind of slaughter is supported by science. My point was that they weren't doing science when all this was codified in the superstitions of the Jews or the Muslims. Or did they perhaps receive a divine revelation portending the development of the EEG and 1970's West German science?

I am inclined to view the more recent opinion, that of the BVA, with greater credence. However I'm also inclined to hear other research reported on the subject which might contradict that opinion, particularly if it is more recent than the middle of the cold war.

What I'm not inclined to do at all is tolerate veiled, and then overt, accusations, which are both unsubstantiated and false, that my own opinion on the matter is the result of some kind of ideological prejudgement of religion. My views are based on reasonable sources reported in mainstream media. If it has legal ramifications for the scope in which religious people can indulge their whims about how to slaughter their dinner, that's too bad.
 
I guess with some topics the question of evidence is paramount, while with others it's hollow and unconvincing...:rolleyes: Isn't an arbitrary regard for science-based evidence sort of, um, a problem for someone on your side of the debate?

But perhaps you didn't actually read my post; it's not clear you did.

Since I'm challenged to expand on my point, I wasn't accusing the BVA of being ideological, I was concerned that a rhetorically-fueled post like this:

Animal cruelty is not only common within Islamic systems, it is obligatory for anyone who wants to eat dinner in a way pleasing to God:
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indicates an interest in persuasion out of proportion to your evidence. But as long as you are laboring that, I'd point out that a British veterinary association may have less authority than a Colorado animal scientist on the matter of livestock; I'm sure Dr. Grandin would defer to the BVA on the question of Miss Kitty's worms.
 
The truth is that is Islam is simply not compatible with western civilization period. The spineless liberal politically correct governments in some European countries have already made the mistake of treating Islam like any other religion and giving in to demands of religious tolerance and any cost. The acceptance or tolerance of Sharia Law in western society stands in direct opposition to freedom of speech and human rights that western society has established over hundreds of years.

The problem is that anyone who is reasonably fearful of the Islamization in western society is labelled as a racist, bigot, xenophobe, Islamophobe, nationalist, etc. Islam has capitalized on the multitude of tolerance and respect of liberal governments in the west yet has never reciprocated this respect or tolerance to other non-muslims.

Muslims continue to label themselves as the victim of religious intolerance and demand that established laws be changed to accommodate them yet they are intolerant to anyone who criticizes Islam often with violence or threats of violence. It is time to end the tolerance of a the misogynistic, homophobic and barbaric ideology that is known as Islam and prevent its spread in the west.
 
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