No Need To Treat Terrorists Nicely

[chance1]

great op-ed in today's ny post

which really tackles the terrorist treatment discussion intelligently

and puts it in proper perspective re: the acts - how we treat them

and terrorists should not be covered by the geneva convention cuz they're not soldiers

good read

i agree with it 100%

i imagine many of u do too

TERROR & FAIRNESS

WHY JUSTICE REALLY DEMANDS


By MARK GOLDBLATT


KSM: Wrong to give him POW's rights.


March 3, 2008 -- IN case you haven't seen the 2002 video of the execution Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl by Muslim terrorists, here's a synopsis: It opens with Pearl, unshaven and haggard, identifying himself as an American Jew. He talks about his Jewish heritage and segues into obviously coerced denunciations of American foreign policy.
Interspersed throughout Pearl's monologue are fleeting images of dead and wounded Muslims. The video then jump-cuts, for several seconds, to a hooded figure slashing Pearl's throat and decapitating his corpse. Pearl is clean-shaven at the end; he's been meticulously prepared for slaughter. This is followed by a lingering shot of Pearl's head held aloft, a warning to the rest of us of what happens to infidels, but also a prize - the spoils of jihad.

You should keep in mind the Pearl video during the current controversy over waterboarding since we now know that the hooded figure hacking through Pearl's neck and hoisting up his severed head was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - one of three "victims" of waterboarding by American interrogators.

KSM's other claim to fame? He masterminded the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

The debate over waterboarding has been framed as a question of whether America will live up to its highest ideals: Will we stoop to the level of our enemies or treat captured enemy combatants humanely? But this is a false choice.

In the first place, waterboarding KSM to obtain actionable intelligence isn't stooping to his level. Drawing and quartering him as a warning to his fellow jihadis would be stooping to his level. In the second place, treating a terrorist humanely doesn't mean treating him with kid gloves. "Humane treatment" is a relative standard. Waterboarding mimics the sensation of drowning; it's unpleasant, even terrifying, but does no lasting damage to the victim. The practice is less humane than, say, politely inquiring after information but much more humane than racking or crucifying.
But there's another value in play here - fairness. Surely, as much as Americans want to think of ourselves as a humane nation, we also want to think of ourselves as a fair nation, a nation that treats people as they deserve to be treated. The critical issue is how a captured terrorist deserves to be treated. On the one hand, terrorists are human beings and therefore, once captured, rate at least a minimum concern for their physical and psychological well-being.

On the other hand, every terrorist is by definition a war criminal. That is, he's not merely a warrior fighting for an evil cause. He's a warrior engaging in criminal activities on behalf of an evil cause. To treat a captured terrorist as a traditional prisoner of war is to afford him the rights of a lawful combatant, which he doesn't deserve. According to the Geneva Conventions, lawful combatants must meet four criteria: 1) They must operate within a fixed chain of command; 2) They must fight wearing recognizable uniforms; 3) They must carry their weapons openly; 4) they must act in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Terrorists meet none of these criteria. They are, to be blunt, the lowest of the lows. Every time we fail to distinguish between lawful and unlawful combatants, every time we insist that the two groups have identical rights, we encourage lawful combatants to become unlawful combatants. We say, in effect, "We're going to treat cheaters and non-cheaters the same." Such a position is unfair to the non-cheaters.

Indeed, it's beyond unfair. It's immoral. Given the mortal stakes in warfare, insisting that terrorists have the same rights as lawful combatants is an insult to the very principle of fairness - to the idea of living and dying, whatever the outcome, by the rules.

So what do we owe the likes of KSM? We owe them their lives, of course, until due process of law releases us of that burden. Beyond their lives, we owe them not the slightest measure of charity - though, because they're human beings, we owe them freedom from gratuitous cruelty. But if the cruelty has a point, and is unlikely to do lasting physical or psychological damage, we owe it to ourselves to rule nothing out. Mark Goldblatt teaches at SUNY/FIT. [removed author's email address]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03032008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/terror__fairness_100158.htm?page=0

 

[Homoerectus]

Agreed. Guerilla wars are not fought army to army. The Geneva convention was set up to govern national armies waging war. These terrorist are not representing a national interest. Should Timothy McVeigh have been treated nicely? Should Eric Robert Rudolph be treated nicely? Ted Kaczynski?

 

[Nishin]

But there's another value in play here - fairness. Surely, as much as Americans want to think of ourselves as a humane nation, we also want to think of ourselves as a fair nation, a nation that treats people as they deserve to be treated.

Make sure to remember that when Miami or Chicago get A-bombed.

 

[LaloGS]

The hawks are flying so high they can't see reality anymore. We live with so much violence in our lives, that it has become the primary source of nightly entertainment. The crime statistics are so high that we expect to be victimized at some point in our lives. So what do we do with all of this stress and anxiety we imagine how wonderful it would be to get these people causing our terror and doing to them what they have done to us.

The severing of Pearl's head was barbaric, we all agree on that, but becoming barbaric in dealing with the men who did it, does not make us any better than they are. Barbarism is barbarism no matter who is practicing it. If you think it's OK then you too are Barbaric.

 

[andysayshi]

You can't take the high ground if you're wallowing in the sewer. No matter what the cost, we should all aim to stand tall above those who would treat us without the dignity we deserve as human beings.

Barbaric deeds are sanctioned by cowards, without the pride or honour to rise above their barbaric enemies.

 

[chance1]

The hawks are flying so high they can't see reality anymore. We live with so much violence in our lives, that it has become the primary source of nightly entertainment. The crime statistics are so high that we expect to be victimized at some point in our lives. So what do we do with all of this stress and anxiety we imagine how wonderful it would be to get these people causing our terror and doing to them what they have done to us.

The severing of Pearl's head was barbaric, we all agree on that, but becoming barbaric in dealing with the men who did it, does not make us any better than they are. Barbarism is barbarism no matter who is practicing it. If you think it's OK then you too are Barbaric.

as usual ........

ur missing the point

waterboarding is NOT barbaric

that is the point

and terrorists should not be protected by the geneva convention as they do not qualify based on the standards

as for "hawks flying high" and we live "with so much violence in our lives" all i can say is

what????????

 

[Kulindahr]

I think the key here lies in the concept of not stooping to the other guy's level.

Given the people we're dealing with, we could go back to the code of military justice from 1800, and not be stooping to the terrorists' level -- catch 'em at sea, hang 'em from the yardarm, is still humane anyway, just not politically correct. Keel-hauling would be inhumane....

We just need to be certain of the ground we're on. If a preponderance of evidence says "terrorist", then different standards may apply than if the preponderance of evidence says, "Out of uniform because it caught fire". Punishment should fit the crime, and so should investigative methods.

 

[LaloGS]

Frankly, when people are comparing waterboarding to beheading something is seriously wrong in our country. There's a difference between scaring someone and cutting off limbs until they confess. The fact that people in this country can't see the difference scares me more about what's inside our country than out.

It's all torture JAV. And since we use the death penalty, how does it make us less barbaric? Our failure is that when we attack, we kill innocent people, and apologize later, but we don't change our methods. We bomb indiscriminately. And you should be scared of what the Neocon Nazis have turned us into. **Removed by Moderator** Power does not give us the right to destroy other countries and not have it considered to be terrorism by the rest of the world.

You ought to get out of the country a bit and see first hand how our America is viewed by the rest of the world. Let's hope that is about to change. Bush and Cheney are criminals and we need to prosecute them for their crimes.

 

[chance1]

It's all torture JAV. And since we use the death penalty, how does it make us less barbaric? Our failure is that when we attack, we kill innocent people, and apologize later, but we don't change our methods. We bomb indiscriminately. And you should be scared of what the Neocon Nazis have turned us into. **Removed by Moderator** Power does not give us the right to destroy other countries and not have it considered to be terrorism by the rest of the world.

You ought to get out of the country a bit and see first hand how our America is viewed by the rest of the world. Let's hope that is about to change. Bush and Cheney are criminals and we need to prosecute them for their crimes.

so waterboarding and beheading r the same?

uh

NO

i don't need to visit another country to know that

as for "when we attack we kill innocent people" - all i can say is

WHAT R U TALKING ABOUT

just wanna be clear

 

[Telstra]

the victims family should have some say in this.

If the family say cut of his arms, then his arms should be cut. That's all, nice and simple.

 

[Twisted06]

i dont understand why we even bother to keep all these asses in jail. why not just shut them the eff in the head and burry there bodies and acted like we did nothing. that would suit me :-D im sure most people wont agree. but i dont get spending goverment money to keep these prisons for terroist up or w/e they do with em after they capture them.

 

[andysayshi]

^ And that post right there, and the one before it, are why you can't condone ANY barbaric treatment at any level. Because when you give an inch, someone will take it two, then three, then a mile.

Democracy preserves hard earned freedoms and rights. People fought and died to create and preserve those rights for us, and we must treat every man as an equal if we hope to preserve those rights for ourselves in the future.

If YOU were mistakenly captured as a terrorist, would you feel the government's right to use waterboarding on you a reasonable thing?

 

[Centexfarmer]

The one thing that has been barely addressed here (skimmed or skipped over is more like it), and not at all in the article provided for this thread, is WHO decides who's a terrorist?

On the other hand, every terrorist is by definition a war criminal.

Is it an International Court of Law?

A military tribunal put together by the government of any given country?

An ideology?

George W. Bush?



A terrorist to one is a patriot to another.

So who gets to decide?

Daniel Pearl was an American Journalist captured, tortured, and then publicly murdered, and according to that article is now being martyred as an excuse to treat another human being in the same manner, without due process of the law.

Which therefore, makes us no different than the enemy (whoever they happen to be, and however they're defined, by whomever).

I thought that as Americans that we were supposedly better than all of that because we have this thing called "due process."

Call it what you want, and call me what you want for thinking that way, but how does capturing, waterboarding, and torture make us any different?

Because we don't publicly execute them?

Sounds pretty Old Testament to me, and I'm not even a Christian.

 

[LaloGS]

as usual ........

ur missing the point

waterboarding is NOT barbaric

that is the point

and terrorists should not be protected by the geneva convention as they do not qualify based on the standards

as for "hawks flying high" and we live "with so much violence in our lives" all i can say is

what????????

I gotta say it Chance, I now am convinced you live in a tight little world **removed by Moderator**

 

[LaloGS]

so waterboarding and beheading r the same?
Yes they are Chance. While they are different degrees of severity, they still are to be lumped into the same category of violence we call torture.
uh

NO Uh. YES, you do. You live in such a tight little succinct world in which everything is so black and white, it makes you colorblind to the way things are.

i don't need to visit another country to know that

as for "when we attack we kill innocent people" - all i can say is

WHAT R U TALKING ABOUT I'm talking about the fact that our bombs kill innocent people, because while we like to think they are smart and only hit specific targets, they don't. Our soldiers let their emotions get in the way and as we've seen, they rape and kill innocents.
Whereas we have lost people in the neighborhood of 4000 plus many more wounded and maimed, the number of innocent Iraqi and Afghans that have died or been wounded and maimed, is approachin the million mark. The number of insurgents killed, wounded, maimed, or captured, does not even apporach our death count. That's what I'm talking about.

just wanna be clear

Is that clear enough for you? Until our government recognizes that just because we have the power and the means to muck about in the world as we've been doing under Bush/Cheney, we are really no better than the terrorists we are being told are our enemy. The invasion of Iraq was a calculated move on the part of the Bush regime to develop a perpetual hot spot, and with the increase of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and the regrowth in much higher numbers of the Taliban, they have succeeded with their plan. In the beginning we had a simple task to remove Al-Qeada in Afghanistan and remove or contain the Taliban but we didn't do it, and due to the regime's incompetence, they turned their attention to Iraq, and have managed to put that country into a state of Chaos that it may never recover from, and in the process, the administration has managed to increase the terrorists working against us by the thousands. So you go right ahead and support this ideals of this administration, it shows what a great humanitarian you are, and how thoughtful you are about America. NOT!!!

 

[White Eagle]

Well said Centex
They have to remember the laws that boy george has unlawfully gotten enacted, anyone here in the US can be classified as a terrorist. That means you or me or anyone on this forum. Then I betcha they bitch about being waterboarded.

 

[LaloGS]

Feel free to discuss the issue guys, but let's stop with the personal swipes at each other. Disagree on opinions, but baiting each other or calling each other names is counter productive to the discussion.

Thanks for your cooperation!

I do get tired of imbecilic support for torture in my name. Sorry if I offended the rules, but torture in the name of America which includes you and me is no better than anything the "terrorists" have done.

We see from videos lately, that this state of mind seems to allow for just about everything, including throwing an innocent puppy off a cliff. Is that how we view ourselves as Americans? I hope not. But apparently this is a growing faction in this country. We are losing the soul our forefathers bought for us with their higher standards, morals, and their lives. Frankly it's disgusting.

 

[LaloGS]

Well said Centex
They have to remember the laws that boy george has unlawfully gotten enacted, anyone here in the US can be classified as a terrorist. That means you or me or anyone on this forum. Then I betcha they bitch about being waterboarded.

Not only that J. but if your neighbor doesn't like you, he can send the [STRIKE]Gestapo[/STRIKE] uh. . . I mean Homeland Security after you by simply leaving an anonymous tip on a hot line that you are a suspicious character. As things stand, you can be jailed for investigation on as little as that, and there is no longer any time line in place for charging or releasing you.

Boy George has done wonders to protect us from terrorists (NOT) but he's done even better not protecting us from ourselves. It's no wonder we have all these dupes clamoring for torture in our name. They don't see any restraints on their lust for revenge, and are itching to get even before Bush & Company get booted and the policy changes. Boy George's utterance that he wanted to get Saddam because, "He tried to kill my daddy." shows exactly why we are in Iraq. The oil is just a benefit gotten from the revenge mode. The country is in the grip of idiots and imbeciles. Time for a long period of change, maybe for the rest of time.

 

[chance1]

Chancie, do you honestly believe they've only waterboarded 3 people and that they haven't done far worse to others (possibly many others and possibly innocents) just because they can get away with it?

This permissive attitude - that the ends justify the means is insane.

I agree with the op ed piece about waterboarding - that while it is unpleasant, it does not meet the torture standard

and that terrorists should not be treated as soldiers as the geneva convention parameters r not met

not gonna make any assumptions on "we have done worse" - why would I?

my position is clear on this

Lalo's dropping bombs thingy is just distortion masquerading as distraction

 

[Twisted06]

as usual ........

ur missing the point

waterboarding is NOT barbaric

that is the point

and terrorists should not be protected by the geneva convention as they do not qualify based on the standards

as for "hawks flying high" and we live "with so much violence in our lives" all i can say is

what????????

waterboarding........... isnt that when they shove there head in ice water to try and get them to talk ? or have i just watched to many james bond movies.