The Original Gay Porn Community - Free Gay Movies and Photos, Gay Porn Site Reviews and Adult Gay Forums

  • Welcome To Just Us Boys - The World's Largest Gay Message Board Community

    In order to comply with recent US Supreme Court rulings regarding adult content, we will be making changes in the future to require that you log into your account to view adult content on the site.
    If you do not have an account, please register.
    REGISTER HERE - 100% FREE / We Will Never Sell Your Info

    To register, turn off your VPN; you can re-enable the VPN after registration. You must maintain an active email address on your account: disposable email addresses cannot be used to register.

No Need To Treat Terrorists Nicely

I agree with the op ed piece about waterboarding - that while it is unpleasant, it does not meet the torture standard

and that terrorists should not be treated as soldiers as the geneva convention parameters r not met

not gonna make any assumptions on "we have done worse" - why would I?

my position is clear on this

Lalo's dropping bombs thingy is just distortion masquerading as distraction

You keep referring to "terrorists", but dodging the real question - who determines that they are terrorists? Regardless of nit-picking about what is torture and what isn't, who has determined that these people are indeed enemies?
 
The very core of Democracy is the right to a fast and fair trial before punishment. Without that one basic right, their is no true equality, and no Democracy.
 
You keep referring to "terrorists", but dodging the real question - who determines that they are terrorists? Regardless of nit-picking about what is torture and what isn't, who has determined that these people are indeed enemies?

i guess that is the heart of the matter

i trust my govt

i love our system

i believe that we use this judiciously not indiscriminately

and if it is proven that we don't then those who do, should pay the price

but my default is that our system is good

yup
 
Anyone here seen the film "Rendition"

If not, watch it.

It addresses the very issues which we argue about here on JUB time and time again... if those who condone rendition, and the denial of basic rights to detainees dont see the error of their ways by the end of the film, then they're just so ignorant there's no hope for them.




watch it?

no one watched it

it made $10 million at the box office despite a large marketing campaign and sexy jake gyllenhaal and "legally blondie" reese witherspoon - only thing good about that movie is that 2 of hollywood's most attractive people found each other and are now dating and perhaps in love

i love that

back to the movie

critics panned it

america - ripe to see an anti govt film - stayed away - in droves

cause americans are .........

smart

yup

another example????

anyone?

cause it is pure propaganda
 
i guess that is the heart of the matter

i trust my govt

i love our system

i believe that we use this judiciously not indiscriminately

and if it is proven that we don't then those who do, should pay the price

but my default is that our system is good

yup


I've no doubt that most citizens of Germany trusted their government in 1937, too. Sadly Governments are made up of people, and people can be corrupt, mistaken, or misguided.

Have you seen this year's Oscar winning doco, Taxi To The Darkside?



I strongly recommend it.
 
I've no doubt that most citizens of Germany trusted their government in 1937, too. Sadly Governments are made up of people, and people can be corrupt, mistaken, or misguided.

Have you seen this year's Oscar winning doco, Taxi To The Darkside?



I strongly recommend it.

so now we are comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany?

yeesh

i love it when u do my job for me - which is to expose urself

i know a lotta jews - friends of mine - they don't feel like this is nazi germany

last i looked, a black man and a woman were running for president - and doing damn well - anti war candidates - did that happen in nazi germany?

anti war dems control the house of rep - and were elected to those jobs - did that happen in nazi germany?

protestors of the war march whenever they please - it's their right - don't recall that happening in nazi germany

many more examples

so many

cuz the analogy u make is beyond ridiculous

and thank u for making it
 
That is incredibly short sighted. And I never said the US is Nazi Germany - clearly it is not, by a long shot.

But Nazi Germany is an example of a democratic nation being corrupted by its Governments and officials, using the fear and suffering of its citizens as fuel, until it became a truly terrible thing. I could have used any number of other historical police states as an equivalent reference.

The point is, the corruption of Democracy always starts somewhere. At some point, fear or apathy drives people to allow their Government to take on a role not as servants, but as controllers. At that moment, it is no longer a true Democracy.

You say you trust your Government. But I can list you HUNDREDS of examples of US Government corruption and failures. And with a little research, probably any other nation's Government.

By ignoring the ESSENTIAL right of due process for every citizen and captor, you are taking the first step toward a police state, the first step in a possible downward slide that history shows us can happen all too easily.

The US is NOT Nazi Germany. But we can all learn from the past to prevent future disasters.
 
That is incredibly short sighted. And I never said the US is Nazi Germany - clearly it is not, by a long shot.

But Nazi Germany is an example of a democratic nation being corrupted by its Governments and officials, using the fear and suffering of its citizens as fuel, until it became a truly terrible thing. I could have used any number of other historical police states as an equivalent reference.

The point is, the corruption of Democracy always starts somewhere. At some point, fear or apathy drives people to allow their Government to take on a role not as servants, but as controllers. At that moment, it is no longer a true Democracy.

You say you trust your Government. But I can list you HUNDREDS of examples of US Government corruption and failures. And with a little research, probably any other nation's Government.

By ignoring the ESSENTIAL right of due process for every citizen and captor, you are taking the first step toward a police state, the first step in a possible downward slide that history shows us can happen all too easily.

The US is NOT Nazi Germany. But we can all learn from the past to prevent future disasters.

I agree on learning from the past

but i think ur analogy is off the charts - and frames the discussion in a way that is not representative of the situation

terrorists do not need to be given the rights of u.s. citizens - they did not jaywalk or rob a store - very different

they should not be given lawyers

they r terrorists

who's life's mission is to kill u, me and our loved ones

im not concerned in the least that we could become nazi germany

i have far too much faith in our govt, and our people

the essential diff between us i think
 
But you're ignoring the issue again - WHO decides someone is a terrorist if they have no right to due process? Giving that arbitrary power to an individual, rather than to a democratic process, is surrendering your nation to a police state. You are literally giving away the democratic rights that all our forefathers fought to win and defend.

As Edward Abbey once said:

“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.”
 
quite frankly im disgusted and sick of being politically correct. These animals should be treated in the same way they treat others. As beasts to be slaughtered. They are neither soldiers nor hero's. they are rapists and murderers and we all need to realize being nice to them , in thier and their fellow terrorists eyes makes us all look weak, thus enabling them to con their brainwashed followers into carrying on the insanity
 
The only reason why they're called terrorists is because they're not officially backed by a government. If they were, they'd be called an army. Sorry.
 
Conjecture: If the CIA may not utilize waterboarding when the parameters merit it, could it mean that the interrogatee is more likely to be permanently silenced after interrogation has proceeded? The CIA is by the nature of the business involved in a lot of morally murky stuff. This plus the need for secure cover for operatives seems to beg for a different ethical parameter. I deplore and have deplored this situation in the past. But what are we to do?

The only way out of the dilemma is if all Earthlings give up their warring ways from the heart.

Fortune cookie saying? Hah! The hemlock thing's been done; apparently it was for nothing if that's all people can say.

Again, the only solution is to give up our old ways from the heart and do so simultaneously, unanimously or very nearly so.
Each one teach one.
 
Well first off I want to applaud everyone that has contributed to this discussion for remaining civil toward each other's perspective on this topic. :=D:

I think what bothers me about some of the perspectives presented here is the nonchalance toward those deemed a terrorist, as if that's what they are without consideration for the truth.

Anyone of us could be considered a terrorist, not because of any action on our part, but because of any alleged associations that we may have.

An American, as in Daniel Pearl's case, in an area hostile toward American interests, was most likely treated as a "terrorist" because of his association as an American with American (George W. Bush's) Foreign Policies.

We know that he had a wife, children, friends, and loved ones here in the United States and abroad who loved and respected him.

It's as if the word/name "terrorist," once given, strips a person of their humanity.

Outside of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, it's estimated that there are more than 7,000 individuals being imprisoned without "due process of the law," because the United States Government has deemed them "terrorists."

How many of those individuals are American Citizens, or citizens of countries that are allies of the United States?

How many of those individuals have families, friends, and loved ones who know nothing of their whereabouts?

Where's the humanity?

After 9/11 many Americans, gave our Government a "blank check" to do as they pleased all in the name of our own National Security.

Where are the checks and balances to ensure that innocents aren't being destroyed, that liberties aren't being unlawfully taken away?

I expect my Government to protect me, as a citizen, from the enemies of my country.

What I'm fearful of, is my country being able to call me an enemy, and that there will be no one there to question whether my government is right in doing so.

Because we allow some arbitrary judge and jury to decide who's a "terrorist," and because some of us (as indicated by responses here) are to complacent as to not worry about it.

As to the Nazi comparison, similarities could be rightfully drawn.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Then they came for the terrorists...

And what should be frightening to anyone in the civilized world, is how arbitrary the term "terrorist" is.

Study up on Martin Niemoller, and one might see why we, as human beings, should always be vigilant when it comes to governments, and the powers that we're willing to afford them.
 
terrorists do not need to be given the rights of u.s. citizens - they did not jaywalk or rob a store - very different

they should not be given lawyers

they r terrorists
I hear you, Chance1, I really do, but I think you're mistaken. Here's a story that I hope will illustrate my point.

Towards the end of WWII, the Germans would surrender to American troops, but against the Soviets they fought to the bitter end. Why? Well, their fathers, uncles, and older brothers who fought in WWI told them if they were captured by the Russians, they would be ill-treated -- probably tortured and certainly mal-nourished. If they were captured by Americans, they would be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention. So instead of fighting to the last man, they surrendered.

The moral of the story is that respecting the Geneva Convention and International Law in WWI directly lead to saving thousands of American lives twenty years later. Humanly treating the German POWs (aside from being right) was in the best interest of the United States.

If a terrorist is tried and found guilty, I have no problem with locking them up and throwing away the key. Remember the war crimes trials after WWII? Even some real monsters (Eichmann, for example) got their day in court. Did that help them out? Did that make them less guilty? Did they get let off the hook somehow? NO! What the trials did do was 1) fully document the horror of the Nazi regime, and 2) leave no doubt that WWII was not just one group of nations defeating another, but a victory of civilization over the forces of darkness. Those two things would not have happened if the Nazis were denied lawyers and convicted in kangaroo courts.

The war on terror is not just realpolitik; it is an ideological struggle. As such, surrendering the moral high ground is not just wrong but is a strategic error and tactical miscalculation of the highest order. Engaging in torture, denying the writ of habeas corpus, and so on, just because we want them to pay or because we are operating under the mistaken assumption that torture is effective, is an astoundingly short sighted policy.
 
Thanks Centex and Zingerific. Very well said. Human rights and fair treatment have always been at the forefront of American foreign policy, but in a seven year period since Bush took office, a lot of what we stand for on the world stage has been eroded into a pile of useless crap. We are no longer standing on the moral high ground but instead have, apparently willingly, waded into the muck of the same sewage sludge the people we call terrorists wade in daily. Ignorant men have somehow absconded with America's Moral position, and in the process, harmed us all.

And to Chance: this is exactly how the Nazis took power in Germany. Through fear and loathing of a trumped up enemy: Jews in that instance, and an ill described terrorist in ours. The biggest difference I see between the Bush White House and Hitler's Reichstag, is that Hitler fixed his enemy as internal to Germany in the so called Jewish conspeiracy. Bush has externalized his enemy, but as time has passed, he has turned his attention internally more and more. Treating the citizens of this country as possible enemies.

Chance I've said it before: you live in a tight little world of black and white. You need to get out of the country once anyway. All is not as you think it is. You are not willing to take another's word for it so the only way you will realize your ignorance, is to expose yourself to another situation in which you are not being fed a line of BS by your trusted government.

News media in America is one of the worst I've seen, and often so biased as to be unbelievable. News in America has become gory entertainment. Night after night with a few seconds devoted to hard news and the rest of the time devoted to violence and gore, and sex scandals.

Last night, the local Fox station here in Phoenix covered the primaries for 30 seconds, and then did a 10 minute segment on how we are exposed to germs when we go shopping, or use public toilets. After that, they showed gory footage of various car wrecks from around the country, while the female anchor smiled through all the gory details. Real news for inquiring minds. Wake up man, you are being fed crap and they call it news.
 
Thanks Centex and Zingerific. Very well said. Human rights and fair treatment have always been at the forefront of American foreign policy, but in a seven year period since Bush took office, a lot of what we stand for on the world stage has been eroded into a pile of useless crap. We are no longer standing on the moral high ground but instead have, apparently willingly, waded into the muck of the same sewage sludge the people we call terrorists wade in daily. Ignorant men have somehow absconded with America's Moral position, and in the process, harmed us all.

And to Chance: this is exactly how the Nazis took power in Germany. Through fear and loathing of a trumped up enemy: Jews in that instance, and an ill described terrorist in ours. The biggest difference I see between the Bush White House and Hitler's Reichstag, is that Hitler fixed his enemy as internal to Germany in the so called Jewish conspeiracy. Bush has externalized his enemy, but as time has passed, he has turned his attention internally more and more. Treating the citizens of this country as possible enemies.

Chance I've said it before: you live in a tight little world of black and white. You need to get out of the country once anyway. All is not as you think it is. You are not willing to take another's word for it so the only way you will realize your ignorance, is to expose yourself to another situation in which you are not being fed a line of BS by your trusted government.

News media in America is one of the worst I've seen, and often so biased as to be unbelievable. News in America has become gory entertainment. Night after night with a few seconds devoted to hard news and the rest of the time devoted to violence and gore, and sex scandals.

Last night, the local Fox station here in Phoenix covered the primaries for 30 seconds, and then did a 10 minute segment on how we are exposed to germs when we go shopping, or use public toilets. After that, they showed gory footage of various car wrecks from around the country, while the female anchor smiled through all the gory details. Real news for inquiring minds. Wake up man, you are being fed crap and they call it news.


yeah

"THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THE NAZIS TOOK POWER" - and that's the high point of ur paragraph
Nazi Germany Jews = Islamic terrorists
yeah

I've said it before, but somethings r worth repeating

ur posts are scary shit

and in the vein of repeating

been outa the country lalo - enough to know how great america is

hear u about the news which is ratings driven - dollar driven - capitalism - cable news has become dominant - cable news is about making money - so ur right - but it's not that bad

when im fed crap i know it - and i can deal

but the hitler/bush/reichstag thing .........

is beyond the pale

yeah
 
^ Sadly, it's too many people with just such an attitude that allow such horrors to happen.
 
^ Sadly, it's too many people with just such an attitude that allow such horrors to happen.

actually the horrors that happen are perpetrated by the scum u wanna protect

yeah
 
Back
Top