NSA data mining

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I would break the law if i think the law is unfair, un-reasonable or stupid. The end.


Example:
How many people have broken the law of prostitution ?

Just because you don't believe that a law is fair or just doesn't give you impunity to break it. We have ways in this country to change a law. That is what all the people standing in front of Walmart, Kmart, sears, target, and every grocery store asking you to sign their petition are attempting to do, change the laws. If you are charged with soliciting a prostitute, your belief that the law is unfair, unreasonable, or stupid is not going to keep you from being convicted.

And I have never broken the law against prostitution, I have never paid for sex in my life. I have never gone without either.

Now, the laws that pertain to speed limits, yes, I have broke the speed limit. I have had every car I own in triple digit speeds. But when I get a ticket for speeding, I have earned every last one of them.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I would break the law if i think the law is unfair, un-reasonable or stupid. The end.


Example:
How many people have broken the law of prostitution ?

Sounds like Somalia would be a good country for you to live in then. And remember that everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a stupid or unreasonable law. So while you may think leaking state secrets and prostitution are unreasonable or stupid laws, someone else might think that not being allowed to kill gay people is stupid and unreasonable or that it is stupid and unreasonable not being able to possess and distribute child porn. You're opening a Pandora's Box there when you decide that laws shouldn't have to be followed based on the feelings of whether they're stupid or unreasonable by each individual. But if that's the world you want, so be it. Better start getting your petitions ready to get the law change.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Sounds like Somalia would be a good country for you to live in then. And remember that everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a stupid or unreasonable law. So while you may think leaking state secrets and prostitution are unreasonable or stupid laws, someone else might think that not being allowed to kill gay people is stupid and unreasonable or that it is stupid and unreasonable not being able to possess and distribute child porn. You're opening a Pandora's Box there when you decide that laws shouldn't have to be followed based on the feelings of whether they're stupid or unreasonable by each individual. But if that's the world you want, so be it. Better start getting your petitions ready to get the law change.

Nazi Germany legislated laws against Jews, Gays and Gypsies for the Nazis needed scapegoats to explain Germany's ills ensuring that their victims ended up in camps where they were exterminated...all in accordance with the laws of the land....I wonder how those millions of victims would have gone about reversing those laws?

Personal liberty is the very foundation of an open and democratic society where government should not be entitled to know all our secrets....for to accept this idea is to pander to those political elites who offered so called security to their own populations in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Communist Russia....certitude is never the result of control of the masses.....liberty can only be expressed through freedom of expression......and government snooping can never provide the security that it presumes it can offer the people.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Nazi Germany legislated laws against Jews, Gays and Gypsies for the Nazis needed scapegoats to explain Germany's ills ensuring that their victims ended up in camps where they were exterminated...all in accordance with the laws of the land....I wonder how those millions of victims would have gone about reversing those laws?

Personal liberty is the very foundation of an open and democratic society where government should not be entitled to know all our secrets....for to accept this idea is to pander to those political elites who offered so called security to their own populations in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Communist Russia....certitude is never the result of control of the masses.....liberty can only be expressed through freedom of expression......and government snooping can never provide the security that it presumes it can offer the people.

And you have yet to prove the government is snooping on citizens. You're basing your entire argument against the NSA on an unsubstantiated and unproven premise. If you want to argue theory, then I think everyone, including myself, would agree the government shouldn't be allowed to spy on its citizens. However, the reality of the situation has not shown it to be true that they do.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

And you have yet to prove the government is snooping on citizens. You're basing your entire argument against the NSA on an unsubstantiated and unproven premise. If you want to argue theory, then I think everyone, including myself, would agree the government shouldn't be allowed to spy on its citizens. However, the reality of the situation has not shown it to be true that they do.

Continue to deny while the rest of the world including Congress, and President Obama have understood that reform of the NSAs snooping operations is overdue.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Continue to deny while the rest of the world including Congress, and President Obama have understood that reform of the NSAs snooping operations is overdue.

Really? I believe Congress just voted on keeping the NSA programs in question. And the reforms Obama proposed were to show the public the NSA is not spying on them. Continue to avoid providing any evidence of your conspiracy theories. Maybe your Ministry of Citizen Protection can enlighten you on how intelligence activities really work since they've worked closely with the US Government for years on their's.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Really? I believe Congress just voted on keeping the NSA programs in question. And the reforms Obama proposed were to show the public the NSA is not spying on them. Continue to avoid providing any evidence of your conspiracy theories. Maybe your Ministry of Citizen Protection can enlighten you on how intelligence activities really work since they've worked closely with the US Government for years on their's.

Changes are in the pipeline for even the most "patriotic" of politicians does not want his mail read or his telephone calls monitored by faceless wonders masquerading as defenders of liberty while compromising those freedoms.

 

[bankside]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

And you have yet to prove the government is snooping on citizens.

An ordinary principle of accountable government is that the citizenry does not have to prove its concerns to those in office. Those in office have the burden of demonstrating that their conduct meets with the approval of the citizens.

Nothing at all need be proved before people are allowed to demand more transparency and improved safeguards regulating how those in office may or may not spy on the private communications of ordinary people who are suspected of no crime..

 

[palbert]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

One of the best articles I have read putting this discussion into perspective. From Jennifer Hoelzer, Senator Wyden's former deputy chief of staff who also formerly interned at the NSA and attended the US Naval Academy.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ions-response-to-nsa-surveillance-leaks.shtml

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

One of the best articles I have read putting this discussion into perspective. From Jennifer Hoelzer, Senator Wyden's former deputy chief of staff who also formerly interned at the NSA and attended the US Naval Academy.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ions-response-to-nsa-surveillance-leaks.shtml

A former insider of the NSA revealing her inside knowledge and concerns for liberty is rarely a matter that can be trusted to government when the people rights to freedom are daily infringed by those employed to protect liberty.....the enemy can also be discovered within....eating away at those very liberties they are pledged to defend.

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

This is true. However, the cases in which this has happened, there are 2 distinct differences. The first is that the parties who did break the law had no legal means to pursue their concerns. The second, and most important, is that in these cases those who broke the law stood their ground, fought for what they believed, and prevailed. The original colonists didn't declare independence and then run away. People like Rosa Parks didn't sit at the front of the bus and then run away when the police were called. They face the consequences for their actions and fought for what they believed. Snowden released this information, which he had legal ways of bringing to the attention of those who are charged with making, enforcing, and interpreting the laws, and then ran away from any responsibility that came with that.

Which is why I don't try to make a direct comparison to Snowden. In his place I would have tried to work this through congress or if I felt that was pointless, then dump it to the press and stand up to make my case in a public court instead of fleeing the country.

I am less interested in Snowden actually than I am in the questions he has raised.

Given the history of abuse by governments, it's right to ask questions about surveillance, particularly as technology is reshaping every aspect of our lives,"

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

An ordinary principle of accountable government is that the citizenry does not have to prove its concerns to those in office. Those in office have the burden of demonstrating that their conduct meets with the approval of the citizens.

Nothing at all need be proved before people are allowed to demand more transparency and improved safeguards regulating how those in office may or may not spy on the private communications of ordinary people who are suspected of no crime..

Well stated. It's called "accountability".

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

One of the best articles I have read putting this discussion into perspective. From Jennifer Hoelzer, Senator Wyden's former deputy chief of staff who also formerly interned at the NSA and attended the US Naval Academy.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ions-response-to-nsa-surveillance-leaks.shtml

I met her once at one of Wyden's town hall meetings. The impression that stuck in my mind was one of a sharp intellect coupled with a devotion to the concerns of the people.

She writes an excellent piece. And Wyden's speech only confirms what I said during the elections: if he'd been Obama's running mate, Obama would have gotten my vote.

OTOH, I would have just been voting for a liar to sit in the Oval Office, as he does anyway.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Which is why I don't try to make a direct comparison to Snowden. In his place I would have tried to work this through congress or if I felt that was pointless, then dump it to the press and stand up to make my case in a public court instead of fleeing the country.

I am less interested in Snowden actually than I am in the questions he has raised.

I've always maintained that we should be thankful to Snowden for being as responsible as he felt he could in bringing this all to our attention and forcing a debate. After all, he could have just sent a huge mass of material to Wikileaks.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

BTW, people who are part of a community that regularly uses the fallacious argument, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" but who insist they have to hide everything aren't worthy of any more trust than I'd give a random homeless drug addict off the street.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

BTW, people who are part of a community that regularly uses the fallacious argument, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" but who insist they have to hide everything aren't worthy of any more trust than I'd give a random homeless drug addict off the street.

I don't think a single person has made that argument in this thread. There is no evidence of the government spying on Americans, so that is the actual fallacious argument here. And yes, the government will always have things to hide because intelligence activities just aren't effective if everyone knows what you are doing. It's a very simple concept and every single country on the face of this Earth has classified programs and information that the public doesn't know. The fact that there are laws that classify information that have been in place since the founding of this country shows that the American people understand that there are things that must be kept from the general public and they support that.

Changes are in the pipeline for even the most "patriotic" of politicians does not want his mail read or his telephone calls monitored by faceless wonders masquerading as defenders of liberty while compromising those freedoms.

Are they? Seems like the first change failed, and I would imagine it's because even the most "patriotic" of politicians knows that they are not being used to spy on Americans.

An ordinary principle of accountable government is that the citizenry does not have to prove its concerns to those in office. Those in office have the burden of demonstrating that their conduct meets with the approval of the citizens.

Nothing at all need be proved before people are allowed to demand more transparency and improved safeguards regulating how those in office may or may not spy on the private communications of ordinary people who are suspected of no crime..

Actually, if the citizenry expects their elected representatives to do anything about their concerns, then they do indeed need to prove their concerns. Sure, you could demand your representative push for a law allowing Big Foot to roam freely on federal lands or to open airspace on December 24th for Santa Clause to act unimpeded, but you're not going to see any results.

Additionally, this country, as I've mentioned before, operates as a representative democracy, meaning that the citizenry elects people to go make decisions on their behalf. It doesn't mean the government is required to reveal and seek permission from the entire citizenry before doing anything. People can demand all they want, but unless they can provide evidence that wrongdoing is occurring and be in the majority that does so, they're not going to get action. You've seen inaction on eliminating these NSA programs or arresting people for violating the Constitution because the majority of those who make the decisions know that the allegations of NSA spying on Americans is unfounded and is merely panic from a certain segment of the population that has a propensity towards those ideas. These programs exists because a majority of Americans demanded that the government take action to prevent terrorists from carrying out terrorists acts on Americans. When the majority of the American people want these programs gone, then they'll be gone. Until then, you'll just have to live with the fact that the minority sometimes doesn't get its way.

I've always maintained that we should be thankful to Snowden for being as responsible as he felt he could in bringing this all to our attention and forcing a debate. After all, he could have just sent a huge mass of material to Wikileaks.

He wasn't responsible at all. If he were, then he would have released his PRISM slides and Verizon warrant and have been done with it. As it stands, he gave everything to Glenn Greenwald, including stuff that has nothing to do with the Constitution or the rights of US citizens. In addition, he did it all without even attempting to pursue legal avenues.

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Actually, if the citizenry expects their elected representatives to do anything about their concerns, then they do indeed need to prove their concerns. Sure, you could demand your representative push for a law allowing Big Foot to roam freely on federal lands or to open airspace on December 24th for Santa Clause to act unimpeded, but you're not going to see any results.

Additionally, this country, as I've mentioned before, operates as a representative democracy, meaning that the citizenry elects people to go make decisions on their behalf. It doesn't mean the government is required to reveal and seek permission from the entire citizenry before doing anything. People can demand all they want, but unless they can provide evidence that wrongdoing is occurring and be in the majority that does so, they're not going to get action. You've seen inaction on eliminating these NSA programs or arresting people for violating the Constitution because the majority of those who make the decisions know that the allegations of NSA spying on Americans is unfounded and is merely panic from a certain segment of the population that has a propensity towards those ideas. These programs exists because a majority of Americans demanded that the government take action to prevent terrorists from carrying out terrorists acts on Americans. When the majority of the American people want these programs gone, then they'll be gone. Until then, you'll just have to live with the fact that the minority sometimes doesn't get its way.

I'm fairly sure having watched how Washington works over the years that if enough people really demanded it, proof or no proof your Bigfoot and Santa Claus laws would be passed. If for no other reason than they gain the Representatives good will without any real political cost. Since when has a proof requirement or even reality had anything to do with the laws congress passes?

It is a Representative Democracy, which means that for the most part the representatives are suppose to represent the will of the people. If Washington ran purely on proof or logic we would have replaced the dollar bill with dollar coins a long time ago but the people don't want it no matter how much money it would save.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I'm fairly sure having watched how Washington works over the years that if enough people really demanded it, proof or no proof your Bigfoot and Santa Claus laws would be passed. If for no other reason than they gain the Representatives good will without any real political cost. Since when has a proof requirement or even reality had anything to do with the laws congress passes?

It is a Representative Democracy, which means that for the most part the representatives are suppose to represent the will of the people. If Washington ran purely on proof or logic we would have replaced the dollar bill with dollar coins a long time ago but the people don't want it no matter how much money it would save.

But see enough people aren't demanding it because no proof or evidence has been provided supporting these allegations of crimes. The representatives of the people had demanded of them action to be taken to protect from terrorists. They implemented these systems and they see how they are used. Until you convince people otherwise, they aren't going to change anything. A majority of the American people still support the NSA programs, despite also believing they may be used for more than terrorism investigations and despite the fact they think they don't have enough oversight. You're going to need evidence supporting your claims of these systems being used to spy on Americans if you ever hope to break the idea that despite the perceived shortcomings, people still prefer these systems to not feeling safe.

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

There is another issue coming out of this that also gets Washington's attention and that is business bottom lines. There is a reason Google and Microsoft are bending over backwards to try and convince their customers they limit cooperation with the NSA. German telecom companies are now announcing that not only are they moving to SSL encryption on their e-mail accounts but are moving ALL of their traffic off of American servers. They calling the project "E-Mail Made in Germany".

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Are they? Seems like the first change failed, and I would imagine it's because even the most "patriotic" of politicians knows that they are not being used to spy on Americans.

Most Congresscritters don't even know what's going on. As Senator Wyden and others have reported, those in Congress with clearance can't even tell their colleagues about a great deal of what goes on -- which means that there is no oversight, and that Congress votes without even knowing what it's voting on.