NSA data mining

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

The common point is the US. Do you not see all of the colorful lines running into it? The vast majority of the connections that interconnect regions in the world run through the US. There are a plethora of regional fiber trunks run, but the interconnection of the various regions occurs through the US. And again, what country is going to cut off access to the US? Economically alone that would cost billions of dollars closing yourself off to the online US market. Is every country going to set up it's own internet backbone that isolated form the US and its intelligence allies? I think cutting off Australia, Canada, the US, Great Britain, New Zealand, and various other cooperative European countries won't leave much left. You can't cut off traffic from a country to the US. It's just not feasible economically or technologically.

It would take six cables to bypass the US connection on the Pacific side.

BTW, who said anything about cutting off from the US market???


trivia note: four transpacific cables leave the continent through my home county (a fifth is being worked on). a wit here said since all that data goes through the county, the county should tax it by the megabyte, to rebuild all the roads used by the people who put them in.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

BTW, who said anything about cutting off from the US market???

I believe it was Stardreamer earlier when he said that Germany was talking above removing ALL of its internet traffic from the US servers. If you remove all traffic, you're cutting off the connection. You can't reach US servers and not have any of your traffic go to US servers.

 

[Corny]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

^ that's not what they mean. You need to know how routing, routes, routers and routing tables/routing algorithms work. It is possible that a connection from a german computer to a german server is routed through the US. Or more likely, from India through the US. This is what they want to stop/change. If you are willingly connecting to an US server, you will of course still get a connection.

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

…The NSA’s electronic surveillance may fundamentally alter the market
dynamics. Neelie Kroes, European Commissioner for Digital Affairs, stated the problem quite succinctly, “If European cloud customers cannot trust the United States government, then maybe they won’t trust U.S. cloud providers either. If I am right, there are multibillion-euro consequences for American companies. If I were an American cloud provider, I would be quite frustrated with my government right now.”

NSA’s spying could lose U.S. computing industry $35bn in three years

The point is that European and other Internet services are now looking to avoid passing and storing traffic with cloud services that touch US servers, this WILL cost US companies money and they are most likely going to be letting congress know about it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

^ that's not what they mean. You need to know how routing, routes, routers and routing tables/routing algorithms work. It is possible that a connection from a german computer to a german server is routed through the US. Or more likely, from India through the US. This is what they want to stop/change. If you are willingly connecting to an US server, you will of course still get a connection.

Much more succinctly explained than I could have done!

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

^ that's not what they mean. You need to know how routing, routes, routers and routing tables/routing algorithms work. It is possible that a connection from a german computer to a german server is routed through the US. Or more likely, from India through the US. This is what they want to stop/change. If you are willingly connecting to an US server, you will of course still get a connection.

I understand how internet routing works. I also understand that when someone says ALL internet traffic (ALL being in all caps), that they generally mean all traffic, not just domestic traffic. Most domestic traffic within countries is already routed domestically. However, most international traffic is routed through the US ultimately because that's where the backbones are. The infrastructure is already in place and to build out new infrastructure would cost LOTS of money and time and most countries just aren't willing to invest that. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would rather hold on to the benefits they derive from government than give up some of those to finance new internet routing infrastructure. And yes, to build out a new infrastructure would require heavy government investment since there is currently no financial benefit to private companies to invest such large sums of money for little return.

NSA’s spying could lose U.S. computing industry $35bn in three years

The point is that European and other Internet services are now looking to avoid passing and storing traffic with cloud services that touch US servers, this WILL cost US companies money and they are most likely going to be letting congress know about it.

I would argue that this was happening to begin with. As the report on which this article is based states "Of the $13.5 billion in investments that cloud computing service providers made in 2011, $5.6
billion came from companies outside North America." Countries were already trying to play catch up and would have continued to do so with or without information on NSA activities. I think stating that it's the fault of the NSA is trying to lay the economic consequences of an event that was inevitable and already taking place at the feet of the NSA.

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Tigerfan, Everything gets blamed on the United States Government. It has become the International pastime. Maybe you and I just need to take an earl retirement and find some naked beach on the gulf coast to kick back and watch the fireworks.

 

[bankside]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I understand how internet routing works. I also understand that when someone says ALL internet traffic (ALL being in all caps), that they generally mean all traffic, not just domestic traffic. Most domestic traffic within countries is already routed domestically. However, most international traffic is routed through the US ultimately because that's where the backbones are. The infrastructure is already in place and to build out new infrastructure would cost LOTS of money and time and most countries just aren't willing to invest that. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would rather hold on to the benefits they derive from government than give up some of those to finance new internet routing infrastructure. And yes, to build out a new infrastructure would require heavy government investment since there is currently no financial benefit to private companies to invest such large sums of money for little return.

That isn't even what your own map shows. The effect of the world having had enough of US "legal" policy would primarily be to cut off the US and Canada. The rest of them would operate quite happily along the major pathways shown on your map.

I am reminded of an apocryphal tale dating back to the height of British imperial hubris: "Fog Closes Channel - Continent Cut Off."

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I said this in another thread, but it also applies here. The cables, switching equipment, and other parts of the system belong to a third party, either the phone company, cable company, or in some cases the government. Every time you send an email or dial a telephone, the instant the communication passes through the walls of your residence or place of business it is on a third parties network. When you give something to a third party, how do you expect to maintain your right to privacy? Which is false anyway. The only real place your right to privacy can be expected is in your face to face communications. Remember, the telephone company started out with live operators, you picked up the phone, told the operator who you wanted to call, and she took your phone line on her switch board and plugged it in to the phone line of the person you wanted to call. And if she wasn't the local gossip, she hung her head set up and did not listen in on your conversation. Where in the transition from the operator to party lines to electronic switching to computerized switching did anyone come up with the idea that their phone calls were privileged communications? Chances are likely that someone has been listening in on your calls from day one. In legal terms, the only privileged communication is between you and your attorney, everything else is obtainable with a warrant. And for all we know, they do in fact have the warrants.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

That isn't even what your own map shows. The effect of the world having had enough of US "legal" policy would primarily be to cut off the US and Canada. The rest of them would operate quite happily along the major pathways shown on your map.

I am reminded of an apocryphal tale dating back to the height of British imperial hubris: "Fog Closes Channel - Continent Cut Off."

Ok. Go to the map and find me an international route from Germany to India that doesn't involve US providers (keeping in mind that if a US entity is an owner of the backbone, then they have access to it.) Also, since everyone is worried about privacy, you're going to have to avoid China, Russia, many countries in the Middle East, and the US intelligence partners Canada, Australia, the UK, and New Zealand (remember, because it's been claimed all of them share all of their information with each other). Also keep in mind that it's cheaper for countries to route through the US to get to other countries instead of paying the tariffs and other costs to route between each other.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I said this in another thread, but it also applies here. The cables, switching equipment, and other parts of the system belong to a third party, either the phone company, cable company, or in some cases the government. Every time you send an email or dial a telephone, the instant the communication passes through the walls of your residence or place of business it is on a third parties network. When you give something to a third party, how do you expect to maintain your right to privacy? Which is false anyway. The only real place your right to privacy can be expected is in your face to face communications. Remember, the telephone company started out with live operators, you picked up the phone, told the operator who you wanted to call, and she took your phone line on her switch board and plugged it in to the phone line of the person you wanted to call. And if she wasn't the local gossip, she hung her head set up and did not listen in on your conversation. Where in the transition from the operator to party lines to electronic switching to computerized switching did anyone come up with the idea that their phone calls were privileged communications? Chances are likely that someone has been listening in on your calls from day one. In legal terms, the only privileged communication is between you and your attorney, everything else is obtainable with a warrant. And for all we know, they do in fact have the warrants.

Well we know they have warrants for the metadata. Given the material I've seen released from the government about their legal interpretations and operation of these programs, they're darn skippy going to be getting a warrant if they're going to be collecting content of communications in the US.

 

[bankside]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

When you give something to a third party, how do you expect to maintain your right to privacy? Which is false anyway.

The same way as when I give an envelope to UPS or DHL I expect them not to open it and read it. Or when I put an envelope in a mailbox I expect employees of the national post office not to open it and read it.

If the government routinely, automatically, opened our mail like that, we would instantly recognize there was something wrong with them and we'd demand answers. There is absolutely no difference just because we send modern messages in electronic envelopes, and the technology makes it easier for the government to spy on its own people. It's still wrong.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

The same way as when I give an envelope to UPS or DHL I expect them not to open it and read it. Or when I put an envelope in a mailbox I expect employees of the national post office not to open it and read it.

If the government routinely, automatically, opened our mail like that, we would instantly recognize there was something wrong with them and we'd demand answers. There is absolutely no difference just because we send modern messages in electronic envelopes, and the technology makes it easier for the government to spy on its own people. It's still wrong.

Actually, at least in the US, mail tampering laws only apply to the USPS. Private companies like UPS, DHL, and FedEx don't have similar laws they are under. And with a warrant, the government can go through your mail as well.

 

[bankside]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Actually, at least in the US, mail tampering laws only apply to the USPS. Private companies like UPS, DHL, and FedEx don't have similar laws they are under.

Do you pay for packages you send to be opened, or do you expect the contents to remain private?

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Do you pay for packages you send to be opened, or do you expect the contents to remain private?

I have the expectation that it can be opened, lost, given to someone else, damaged, mishandled, or delivered to me in good condition.

Per UPS's ground delivery general terms and conditions (Link here):

UPS reserves the right to open and inspect any package tendered to it for transportation.

FedEx's T&Cs: http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/terms/express-ground/index.html
DHL's T&Cs: http://www.dhl-usa.com/en/express/shipping/shipping_advice/terms_conditions.html

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

It is like a secret. You tell the guy that told you in confidence, that you will not tell anyone. But when you tell the third guy, about the first guy's embarrassing rash, you cannot expect him to uphold the confidence that you promised the first guy.

The phone company, the cable company, UPS, Fed Ex, ad the rest of them are not bound by any obligation to keep your contents secured. They will xray them for explosives, they will open them and look inside the box. They will back over your package, deliver it to you with tire tracks across the box, and then tell you that it was like that when they received it. I will repeat this again, if you want to keep your conversations and correspondence private, talk to the person face to face, hand deliver the envelope. For the most part, you should have no expectation of privacy in communications. The only privilege you have as far as your communications not being opened is the United States Post Office. The phone company is not the government, the cable company is not the government, UPS is not the government, DHL is not the government. They have no obligation to your imagined right to privacy. The phone company was started by Alexander Graham Bell, there is a reason that it was called "Ma Bell" for years. It is not the government. Your expectation of privacy is not founded in case law. Your expectation of constitutional protection, in the real world, does not extend to businesses.

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I understand how internet routing works. I also understand that when someone says ALL internet traffic (ALL being in all caps), that they generally mean all traffic, not just domestic traffic. Most domestic traffic within countries is already routed domestically. However, most international traffic is routed through the US ultimately because that's where the backbones are. The infrastructure is already in place and to build out new infrastructure would cost LOTS of money and time and most countries just aren't willing to invest that. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would rather hold on to the benefits they derive from government than give up some of those to finance new internet routing infrastructure. And yes, to build out a new infrastructure would require heavy government investment since there is currently no financial benefit to private companies to invest such large sums of money for little return.


I would argue that this was happening to begin with. As the report on which this article is based states "Of the $13.5 billion in investments that cloud computing service providers made in 2011, $5.6
billion came from companies outside North America." Countries were already trying to play catch up and would have continued to do so with or without information on NSA activities. I think stating that it's the fault of the NSA is trying to lay the economic consequences of an event that was inevitable and already taking place at the feet of the NSA.

To a degree yes but the NSA scare adds fuel to the fire that they can use to promote the 'security' of there services.

 

[bankside]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

It is like a secret. You tell the guy that told you in confidence, that you will not tell anyone. But when you tell the third guy, about the first guy's embarrassing rash, you cannot expect him to uphold the confidence that you promised the first guy.

The phone company, the cable company, UPS, Fed Ex, ad the rest of them are not bound by any obligation to keep your contents secured. They will xray them for explosives, they will open them and look inside the box. They will back over your package, deliver it to you with tire tracks across the box, and then tell you that it was like that when they received it. I will repeat this again, if you want to keep your conversations and correspondence private, talk to the person face to face, hand deliver the envelope. For the most part, you should have no expectation of privacy in communications. The only privilege you have as far as your communications not being opened is the United States Post Office. The phone company is not the government, the cable company is not the government, UPS is not the government, DHL is not the government. They have no obligation to your imagined right to privacy. The phone company was started by Alexander Graham Bell, there is a reason that it was called "Ma Bell" for years. It is not the government. Your expectation of privacy is not founded in case law. Your expectation of constitutional protection, in the real world, does not extend to businesses.

The government is prevented from tampering with your mail. This is absolutely not a privilege that should command your gratitude, but one of the fundamental characteristics of an acceptable balance between those in office and the rest of the citizens, that we are all entitled to demand. The same government can't claim to have any integrity simply by hiring or obliging private companies to do the snooping, on the pretext that privacy doesn't apply there.

 

[palbert]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

One hop, two hops, three hops a dollar
All for further cover-up stand up and holler

Obama, in a stunning gesture to quiet surveillance critics, has announced that James Clapper - he of being "least untruthful" to Congress renown - will lead an "independent" review of surveillance issues.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/13/james-clapper_n_3748431.html

Whatever.

 

[palbert]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Obama changed his mind, or rather, someone did it for him.

The White House said on Tuesday that Director of National Intelligence (DNI) James Clapper won't choose members of a special committee tasked with reviewing high-tech U.S. spying programs and ferreting out abuses, contradicting earlier statements from both Clapper and President Barack Obama. Clapper also won't run the study, officials said.

http://news.yahoo.com/-dni-clapper-won’t-control-spying-review--white-house--194607489.html

Instead, Clapper will "facilitate," which sounds suspiciously like doing the same thing as helping Congress out. We know how well that worked.