Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wealth

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Bullshit.

I spent the past five and half years working as a "LICENSED" Plumber in the State of Texas, and the only time that I was ever called out on a job that paid my going rate was when a "permit" was required.

"Real" plumbers only get called when a permit is required because their monopoly charges so much no one will call them otherwise. There are three licensed plumbing outfits in this town, and their rates run from $145/hr to $185/hr for the licensed plumber, starting from the moment they get in the van. With robbery like that, of course people would rather call a handy-man who charges $20/hr and can find out what the codes are from a free booklet at the supply store.

"Jake Leg Plumbers," or "Joe the Plumbers" if you will, were and are the "handy-man" types who'll also paint your garage, and re-grout your tile, but if a "licensed" plumber fucked something up they're coming after my license, and the bonded insurance company, the owner of my company, and anyone else that some dipshit looking for a freebie can con into getting something for nothing.

Are you saying that insurance against such a thing is part of the cost? It's simpler to do as I do when as a handy-man I do plumbing: if something goes wrong, I come back and re-do it for free.

Any additional charges are what my Dad calls "taxes," placed upon those of us with a license by municipalities, county, and state governments that "require" an inspection, to make sure that those of us with a license are operating within our state mandated/required "codes."

All that comes as the price of monopoly.

The plumbers that I know, and those that I've worked with, both licensed and otherwise, charge what the "market will bare."

"Jake Legs" can give as much away as they want, under-cut what the market will bare in terms of costs, and not be held accountable if they end up killing some one because they were/are too stupid to know what the law/code requires.

"What the market will bear" is a matter of your level of customer, too. When as a handy-man I do plumbing, it's for people who can't afford a licensed plumber, or for repairs so simple they could do it themselves, really.

So the only "monopolies," IMO are those given to those who don't have a license, and are looking to make a quick buck, while leaving those of us WITH a license open to inspection and liablities.

So I say bullshit to your comments Sir, they were quite demeaning and ill informed.

A monopoly by definition, that is as understood by the Constitution, is a government-authorized purveyor of services. When the government says that certain things have to be done only by certain persons, that's a monopoly.

Those of us providing the same services at the same quality for a lesser cost are merely providing a remedy to the predicament caused by the government-established monopoly.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Those of us providing the same services at the same quality for a lesser cost are merely providing a remedy to the predicament caused by the government-established monopoly.

Fair enough, and I myself am guilty of providing such services.

I'll give you an example.

Someone calls me and asks to know my price for replacing a water-heater.

My "cost" parts and labor, is around $650 dollars. That's what I'd charge.

That's the water-heater, my picking it up, removing the old one, hauling it off, and installing a new one.

Now if you want by "code," along with inspections, and the labor, and the parts, and the time spent waiting for an inspector to COME INTO YOUR HOME TO INSPECT, then you're talking about $1,200.

Because now I'm installing a "drip pan" that drains outside, a "wag-valve" that cuts off the water to the heater that's triggered by a sensor in the drip pan, calling for an inspector and the permit fees for calling, and then my time waiting for the inspector to show up so that I can stop what I'm doing and go back to "light and turn the water on to the heater," and knowing that I'm risking my license by sharing this information with the home-owner should they decide to "confirm" that all of this is true.

OR, installing it YOUR way, and taking a risk that a city-inspector comes by, questioning why I don't have a "permit" to do what I'm doing.

But somehow, according to you, the "plumbers" are some how in cahoots with this so called monoply.

Right.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Looks like the real culprit is excessive government interference.

I support smaller government.

And I hate to say it but that ain't gonna happen with a filibuster proof Democratic Congress and Democratic WH.

 

[naked gent]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

I support smaller government.

And I hate to say it but that ain't gonna happen with a filibuster proof Democratic Congress and Democratic WH.

It didn't happen under a republican congress and a republican WH why would anyone expect it to happen now?

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Fair enough, and I myself am guilty of providing such services.

I'll give you an example.

Someone calls me and asks to know my price for replacing a water-heater.

My "cost" parts and labor, is around $650 dollars. That's what I'd charge.

That's the water-heater, my picking it up, removing the old one, hauling it off, and installing a new one.

Now if you want by "code," along with inspections, and the labor, and the parts, and the time spent waiting for an inspector to COME INTO YOUR HOME TO INSPECT, then you're talking about $1,200.

Because now I'm installing a "drip pan" that drains outside, a "wag-valve" that cuts off the water to the heater that's triggered by a sensor in the drip pan, calling for an inspector and the permit fees for calling, and then my time waiting for the inspector to show up so that I can stop what I'm doing and go back to "light and turn the water on to the heater," and knowing that I'm risking my license by sharing this information with the home-owner should they decide to "confirm" that all of this is true.

OR, installing it YOUR way, and taking a risk that a city-inspector comes by, questioning why I don't have a "permit" to do what I'm doing.

But somehow, according to you, the "plumbers" are some how in cahoots with this so called monoply.

Right.

No, the plumbers are the monopoly, established by the government by laws requiring licenses and protected by the government through establishing codes that let them sit and get paid $145/hr for doing nothing, and penalties for people doing the plumbers' jobs without that license.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Standard Oil in the 1900s, and Ma Bell in the 1970s, were "government authorized" purveyors of services?

[Inappropriate text: Removed by Moderator] --it has always been the government who knocks down monopolies, not builds them.

Your reading comprehension here is really poor.

Standard Oil and Ma Bell were not monopolies by the definition the Framers meant in the Constitution.

And the government establishes many monopolies, to this day -- plumbers, electricians, doctors, cable TV companies, garbage collection companies, and more. Any time the government awards income from a certain profession only to those who are licensed by the government, that's a monopoly, by the term in the Constitution.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Nick, I would beg to disagree with you on this issue, if you're referring to deregulation. The intrinsic fault with deregulation is that it does not protect us from the bad guys; there will always be a small minority of people who will subvert the system, and will taint milk with poison, fly unsafe airplanes, and run up derivatives full of subprime loans that rock the financial world. In your case of the construction industry, there will always be the ones who install unsafe electrical, plumbing, and heating devices that burn our homes down or fill our homes with toxic mold.

I beg you to think about it: Look at what deregulation has done to the airline industry, the S & L industry, and now the banking industry.

And look what regulation has done to the building industry: the Oregonian here estimated that 20% to 40% of the price of a house is due to regulation -- and that's assuming that the house is built exactly the same without regulation as with.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Kulin, have you thought for one moment what those houses would be like without regulation?

I'm asking you to ponder a little bit of psychology here. There will always be a small minority of people who will subvert the process for profit; regulation is intended to curtail this problem. Without regulation in the housing industry, you'd certainly find unscrupulous builders who put lead in their paint, have hidden leaks in their plumbing that cause toxic mold, or otherwise endanger the lives or health of the occupants--anything to save a buck. I am only asking you to face reality--you don't seem to be aware that there are bad guys who will harm you to make a profit.

For starters, we don't have to force the latest technology into every house. There are people around here living in WW II-era slap-together apartments because they can't afford to even rent at the rates the latest building codes require. There are even waiting lists to get into such places, because "affordable housing" has come to mean "what the mid-middle class can afford to buy". When there are waiting lists to get into falling-apart, mold-ridden, uninsulated places, that's an indication that the system we have is not working.
So a system of graded codes is in order -- say, by decade, so an 6 for 60s, 7 for 70s, 8 for 80s, etc. with of course wiring and plumbing capable of handling today's appliances. That would provide quantum steps rather than a monstrous quantum leap, since the older versions would be cheaper to build.
Further, inspection fees don't have to be so high. I've been doing some work for a friend who's turning the substantial "crawl space" (it's high enough for jumping) under his house into more floor space, and so far the inspection fees have totaled more than all his materials. That's totally ridiculous; if the government is mandating inspections, the inspections shouldn't be punitive.
Finally, I've been in areas where there aren't any codes or permits, and most houses are just fine. The few that aren't get weeded out, because a different approach has been put in place: contractors have to carry liability insurance, and warrantee the work for several years. Of course if you do it yourself, there's no such net, but the protection comes out on the other end: if you're ever going to sell, you have to certify the condition of the house and other structures, and if you make false claims, you're liable.

There are other forms of artificially inflated prices for housing due to government interference; "certification of habitability" is one. But plainly this is a situation in which Harry Browne, former Libertarian presidential candidate and economist, is right: government doesn't work.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Kulin, good buddy, you really didn't answer my question: don't you see that without some regulation a few scofflaws would endanger the health and life of home buyers?

I could agree with you that the system might need tweaking, but I submit to you that throwing the baby out with the bathwater would cost lives.

And as I said, I've seen places in the country where there is no regulation, and the people are doing fine -- and they can afford housing that under regulation they could only dream about.

The system is perfectly capable of being run without any government involvement at all. Yes, there would be a few scofflaws, but they abound as it is, in roofing, plumbing, concrete work (foundations, driveways, and other slabs), and more.