Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wealth

[smelter]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

The absolute literal truth strikes home doesn't it. The list of union excesses is virtually endless.

No competent hard-working man or woman needs the so-called 'protection' of unions.

.... and the list of non-union company exploitation of employees is even longer.

Henry, did you ever stop to think that your salary as an office worker would have been significantly lower if all companies were non-union? I suspect your lofty ego would not allow for that type of critical introspection.

 

[HenryReardon]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

.... [
Henry, did you ever stop to think that your salary as an office worker would have been significantly lower if all companies were non-union? .

If all companies were non-union, the cost of living would be more than significantly lower. Ever think about that?

 

[naked gent]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

No competent hard-working man or woman needs the so-called 'protection' of unions.

Just curious here Henry but do you also think no competent hard-working man or woman needs the protection of a contract when being hired as say a CEO or VP of a company?

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

No, he doesn't, Kulin; in fact, the opinion was profoundly insulting to millions of hard-working people who were members of a union.

This one hits me in the gut personally. My father was a member of a union that got no press--because it never went on strike. He worked 40 hours a week, for over 30 years, to feed, clothe, and house his family in the best way he knew how. His union membership allowed us to live a decent life, if not one of wealth; this allowed my mother to stay at home with the kids, which had innumerable benefits. (If there is one thing the conservatives have right, it's the notion that a stay-at-home mom enhances family bonding.) It was a good life.

His assertion that union members want to get "something for nothing" is rude, insulting, elitist, and just flat-out wrong; union members work hard, damn hard, for a living--they're not welfare queens. How dare he suggest such a thing? What an a♣♣hole!

On a larger scale, the mystery of why some people foam at the mouth at the mere mention of unions puzzles me more than the mystery of why 23% of the people still think George Bush was a good president.

Why do some people foam at the mouth? Because many unions nowadays are about greed. I hope you've read my previous examples of my experiences with unions, especially the part about how they actually decreased my earnings.

But here's another: I dated a gal briefly who had an incredible crush on me. I visited her union family in Michigan, in a neighborhood that was entirely union. At dinner, the dad was complaining that the auto company wasn't paying enough. I about fell on the floor:
Her mom didn't have to work. They had full health care coverage including vision and dental. There were two cars in their garage, along with a pair of motorcycles and a boat. The house had five bedrooms, a monster dining room, a TV room, a billiards room, a game room with ping-pong and foosball tables, three full bathrooms, a balcony overlooking the back yard.... That yard was a full quarter acre, and abutting it were a tennis court and a large swimming pool.
The gal had her own car, a birthday gift from mom & dad. One of the motorcycles was her brother's, who expected to get his own car as a birthday gift when he turned 18.
All the houses in the neighborhood were variations on that.

That's not just "a good life", that's luxury paid for by the people who buy what those workers make. It's plunder on a vast scale.

Want to know why jobs are going overseas? Easy -- unions.
Want to know why the U.S. has a massive trade deficit (aside from oil)? Easy -- unions.
Want to know why it boils down to unions? Easy -- greed. The big unions have gotten so privileged that many of their members make as much an hour as a psychiatrist... and they think society owes them that.

Yes, down at the bottom, where wages are such that people have to choose between fixing the roof and getting decent clothes for the kids, unions are valuable. But any union demanding more than $40/hour is just a giant extortionist organization -- and even at the bottom, when union dues cut into meager paychecks, they are, too.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

The absolute literal truth strikes home doesn't it. The list of union excesses is virtually endless.

No competent hard-working man or woman needs the so-called 'protection' of unions.

Your first point is well taken. And, further, unions have caused the shutting down of some perfectly good and reasonable workplaces.

Your second point, however, is dead wrong. A lot of people who work hard and are competent at their job don't have the personality or power to stand up for themselves, or can't understand economic issues like credit, insurance and retirement. Unions have served a really useful function for millions of American workers, and even if you don't care about those individuals and their families, their needs being taken care of through their own pay is helpful to our society at large.

What Nick said.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

No. Why not explain that to us since I'm not really seeing your logic.

Well, for starters you wouldn't see bills for $1300 to redo about fifty feet of pipe hanging from a basement ceiling, like my mom got hit with.

When I saw the rates they were charging ($145/hr for a full plumber, $80/hr for an assistant, $60/hr for an unskilled helper) I commented, "I thought they were replacing pipes, not providing therapy for them".

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Well, for starters you wouldn't see bills for $1300 to redo about fifty feet of pipe hanging from a basement ceiling, like my mom got hit with.

When I saw the rates they were charging ($145/hr for a full plumber, $80/hr for an assistant, $60/hr for an unskilled helper) I commented, "I thought they were replacing pipes, not providing therapy for them".

Although union fees play into that, it's also licensing (like Joe the Plumber apparently didn't have), certification, insurance, and stuff like that. Also the trades are not attracting as many competent people as they once did, so a good plumber can charge a pretty high rate and still keep his schedule full.

 

[Glafna]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

too late, I graduated (with honors).

Guess it was slim pickings for the honors program then.

 

[Glafna]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Yes and we believed every word of it! When I grew up in the early 1950s, television was just in its infancy and kids rarely questioned authority figures like policemen, teachers and parents. Truth is, we weren't very smart back then!

Ah Karamba!!!!

One question.. what did you learn about the war of 1812(really wanna know this one )

 

[Glafna]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

But socialism is the wrong way to go to correct that. Unfortunately, it's a simple route people don't have to really think about.

A combination of capitalism and socialism is what's needed in the world, so that there are a series of checks and balances to guarantee no one can try to over-step what they have a right to.

 

[White Eagle]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

There lies revealed, the mentality of a looter.

If I can't have what I want, I'm okay with the government taking money at gunpoint from others so they can give it to me.

It puts you on the same moral plane as people who loot stores and shops during natural disasters or other emergencies.

My 'attitude' as you call it, is not a republican attitude. It is an American attitude.

My ancestors came to this country (most of them before 1750) for a variety of reasons; some to escape oppressive governments; some to worship as they pleased; and for a variety of other reasons; but mostly, for an opportunity to take care of themselves as they saw fit.

It is that attitude that has made this country the greatest in the world. Not perfect, far from it, but greater than anything has has been before.

That's an odd notion these days, the idea of taking care of oneself and one's own.

And it is that attitude that Obama and the left lunatic fringe of the democrat party are out to destroy.

My ancestors were here long before your ancestors came here to fuck it up. And you are still doing it. I wish the people with your attitude would go back where they came from. I'm sure we could prosper without their help.

 

[levenshulme31]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Why do some people foam at the mouth? Because many unions nowadays are about greed. I hope you've read my previous examples of my experiences with unions, especially the part about how they actually decreased my earnings.

But here's another: I dated a gal briefly who had an incredible crush on me. I visited her union family in Michigan, in a neighborhood that was entirely union. At dinner, the dad was complaining that the auto company wasn't paying enough. I about fell on the floor:
Her mom didn't have to work. They had full health care coverage including vision and dental. There were two cars in their garage, along with a pair of motorcycles and a boat. The house had five bedrooms, a monster dining room, a TV room, a billiards room, a game room with ping-pong and foosball tables, three full bathrooms, a balcony overlooking the back yard.... That yard was a full quarter acre, and abutting it were a tennis court and a large swimming pool.
The gal had her own car, a birthday gift from mom & dad. One of the motorcycles was her brother's, who expected to get his own car as a birthday gift when he turned 18.
All the houses in the neighborhood were variations on that.

That's not just "a good life", that's luxury paid for by the people who buy what those workers make. It's plunder on a vast scale.

If the products he was making were generating high profits for the employer, why shouldn't the workers get a fair share? Do you think the retail price would reduce if the workers all suddenly got minimum wage? The profits would just go in greater proportion to the upper management and shareholders. The more is earned at the bottom of the ladder, the more is ploughed back into the local economy to the betterment of the community as a whole.

Yes, down at the bottom, where wages are such that people have to choose between fixing the roof and getting decent clothes for the kids, unions are valuable. But any union demanding more than $40/hour is just a giant extortionist organization -- and even at the bottom, when union dues cut into meager paychecks, they are, too.

Why should $40 an hour be the ceiling on earnings for the working man? Why should that not be the upper limit earnings for doctors or lawyers or musicians or Tiger Woods? I want the person who fixes my brakes or installs my bathroom to be as well trained and competent at their job as I want my doctor or lawyer to be at theirs. An electrician paid $6 an hour is likely to be more concerned with his looming mortgage foreclosure than the safety of your lighting circuit.

 

[smelter]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

If all companies were non-union, the cost of living would be more than significantly lower. Ever think about that?

I did and decided that sweat shop wages and hours were just not for me. I kinda liked working a 40 hour week instead of 72 and having enough money and time to enjoy my family and friends. But hey, if work was your passion, I'm happy for you.

 

[smelter]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Ah Karamba!!!!

One question.. what did you learn about the war of 1812(really wanna know this one )

I learned that playing hockey against the Canadians is a lot more fun than going to war with them.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

What makes you think that? I mean.. in this market, people charge what they can get. If people will pay that much to have something fixed, that's what will be charged.

I'm also not sure how that lowers the cost of living. I mean, it might cost YOU less on the rare occasion a pipe bursts in your basement, but that's just money that's circulating.

Just like health care. I mean, if we all had standardized health care, we'd pay less for it. I wouldn't be still climbing out from beneath the huge bills I got months ago for dislocating and breaking my arm. But you don't hear Henry calling for better and more affordable health care to lower the cost of living.

Cost of living isn't things like incidental expenses.. it's things like the cost of food, gas, rent, utilities, clothes... the things that you need and use every day.

Just saying that we need to bust unions so you pay less to have your pipes fixed doesn't make that much sense. I mean, if there was no union, do you really think it would have cost less? Not sure I agree with that. Charging as much as you can get is kind of a "free market" thing.

Plumbing work costs as much as it does because plumbers are, in actuality, a government-authorized monopoly. There are lots of people who can do plumbing, but without the government stamp of approval, they can't sign off that the work is code. So they can charge just about anything they want.
And they get paid that even if they're using shovels to dig a hole, which is ridiculous.

Health care is another situation where there's a government-authorized monopoly -- aided and abetted by the insurance companies. Doctors have to be A.M.A. certified -- and the A.M.A. determines how many doctors there are. As with any occupation, if you limit the supply, the price goes up.

Supply and demand works not just for commodities, but for labor, so when you let the market decide how many plumbers, doctors, etc. are needed, the price will be lower than if the supply is limited.

Your list of staples is less subject to change from eliminating union price controls, because unions involved in the production of those items don't limit the available labor. More significant for staples is government dabbling in the market -- e.g. Bush and his incentives for biofuels, which is driving up food prices. Rent, though, would be affected eventually, because it depends to a large degree on the cost of construction, which would come down. But that's not the sort of change that comes quickly; existing buildings still have to have their costs paid down, and owners of new buildings would increase their income by keeping the rents high.

So in general Henry is right, but given the small portion of the labor force that's unionized, and the pace of changes, it's not the sort of thing that would happen much faster than, say, a couple of two-term presidential administrations.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Kulin, the same plumbers who were making union wages at $21 per hour in the 70s are now making $15 per hour in 2008 dollars in a de-unionized environment, but yet plumbing costs have skyrocketed. How do you explain this?

Somehow I don't believe that $145/hr now was just $21/hr back then, for starters.

Government interference plays a part here: every time there's an advance in technology, building codes demand the new materials for everything. Just in the last five years, the price of pipe to run a line from a meter to a building has tripled.
Of course some of that is the oil prices; PVC and all the other "plastic" pipe is made of petroleum, and the price follows the changes in a barrel of oil rather closely. Last summer, I watched the price of schedule 40 PVC rise 45%; the rate has slowed some, but it continues to climb. Just to illustrate, a job that two years ago cost me $1840 in materials would now cost $3090 -- an increase of over 60%.

Metals have also gone up; flexible copper pipe may as well be a precious metal. Steel pipe is up; stainless steel prices have gone to heart-attack territory.

Those are the factors I can think of. Just that is enough that I just last week advised a homeowner to buy enough flexible piping to redo the entire landscaping sprinkler system -- a section had cracked, and with the type of pipe they have other sections will be failing, too. If they replace it piecemeal, my guess is that they'll end up spending at least 20% more than if they lay in the supply now.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

A combination of capitalism and socialism is what's needed in the world, so that there are a series of checks and balances to guarantee no one can try to over-step what they have a right to.

No socialism is needed; limitations on capitalism are sufficient. One of those rules should be no government preferential treatment of any industry or company -- a concept the Constitution attempts to set with the prohibition of monopolies (which is violated all over the place -- recall that "monopoly" then meant government-approved control of an industry). Socialism starts looking really attractive when government-corporate collusion concentrates wealth.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

If the products he was making were generating high profits for the employer, why shouldn't the workers get a fair share? Do you think the retail price would reduce if the workers all suddenly got minimum wage? The profits would just go in greater proportion to the upper management and shareholders. The more is earned at the bottom of the ladder, the more is ploughed back into the local economy to the betterment of the community as a whole.



Why should $40 an hour be the ceiling on earnings for the working man? Why should that not be the upper limit earnings for doctors or lawyers or musicians or Tiger Woods? I want the person who fixes my brakes or installs my bathroom to be as well trained and competent at their job as I want my doctor or lawyer to be at theirs. An electrician paid $6 an hour is likely to be more concerned with his looming mortgage foreclosure than the safety of your lighting circuit.

Yes, companies would lower their prices if labor were lower. It wouldn't be immediate, but companies competing for market share will cut prices any time they can. That's why oil companies, even with a limited supply of oil, are only getting about a 9% return on investment instead of the 20% I'm sure they'd love.

Unions often behave as parasites: they'll take the employer for all they can get. The fewer employers there are, the easier that is to do. But what they forget is that just as you can't tax a company; you only tax the customers, so also you can't gouge a company, you can only gouge its customers.

This is really just simple basic economics -- something the left has a hard time grasping, for some reason... and which sometimes the right grasps all too well.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

Plumbing work costs as much as it does because plumbers are, in actuality, a government-authorized monopoly. There are lots of people who can do plumbing, but without the government stamp of approval, they can't sign off that the work is code. So they can charge just about anything they want.

Bullshit.

I spent the past five and half years working as a "LICENSED" Plumber in the State of Texas, and the only time that I was ever called out on a job that paid my going rate was when a "permit" was required.

"Jake Leg Plumbers," or "Joe the Plumbers" if you will, were and are the "handy-man" types who'll also paint your garage, and re-grout your tile, but if a "licensed" plumber fucked something up they're coming after my license, and the bonded insurance company, the owner of my company, and anyone else that some dipshit looking for a freebie can con into getting something for nothing.

As my Dad says, "the laws make honest men dishonest."

Fuckin' John McCain, and his lipstick wearing "bull-dog" don't know shit about what honest blue-collar workers have to deal with on a day to day basis, and they proved that to me when they embraced a "Jake-Leg" like Joe What's-his-fucker, who was either too lazy, or too stupid to actually get any type of a license that would legally ALLOW him to "buy" the business that he's too fucking stupid to think that he could actually make a quarter of a million dollars with, because he'd be competing with other "jake-legs" like himself.

The plumbers that I know, and those that I've worked with, both licensed and otherwise, charge what the "market will bare."

Any additional charges are what my Dad calls "taxes," placed upon those of us with a license by municipalities, county, and state governments that "require" an inspection, to make sure that those of us with a license are operating within our state mandated/required "codes."

"Jake Legs" can give as much away as they want, under-cut what the market will bare in terms of costs, and not be held accountable if they end up killing some one because they were/are too stupid to know what the law/code requires.

So the only "monopolies," IMO are those given to those who don't have a license, and are looking to make a quick buck, while leaving those of us WITH a license open to inspection and liablities.

So I say bullshit to your comments Sir, they were quite demeaning and ill informed.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Re: Obama 2001 Interview on NPR-Restribute the Wea

The absolute literal truth strikes home doesn't it. The list of union excesses is virtually endless.

No competent hard-working man or woman needs the so-called 'protection' of unions.

You only say that because either a Union has never done anything for you, or you've forgotten what Unions have provided for average day-to-day workers; 40 hour work weeks, a reasonable salary for a day's wage, and representation against corporate greed.

Now don't get me wrong, I think that today's "unions" have become to self-serving toward their own political interests, but there was a time when Unions actually looked after the working class.

Now the working class is pitted againts "unions" who only have the unions interest in mind, against corporate interests that only have their share holders in mind.

Either way, the working class in our country are fucked.

As my dearly departed Grandpa use to say, "The Republicans tax the working class to take care of the rich, and the Democrats tax the working class to take care of the poor, which leave neither party taking care of the working class."