Obama ending don't ask don't tell

[Apollo]

The clock is ticking for Obama and quickly. The mid-term elections are looming. Most likely there will a change, and whatever resources he has today will be totally different after the mid-term elections. Some races will favor the policies to end DOMA and DADT, but a lot will not. And, those saying by 2017 or what have your are being way to optimistic. There is no way to forecast that far ahead. Change is dynamic, but what kind of change that is who is to say. For the good or for the worst waiting is not going to achieve much.

it will have to happen before the mid-terms or he will have a harder time passing it.

the dems wont be able to hold onto a huge lead like right now in the mid-terms.

waiting till 2017 is just unacceptable.

 

[Kulindahr]

Apollo, thanks for posting the speech.

He does talk pretty -- I even cried once.

I just hope there's a lot more activity behind the scenes than we know.

 

[JB3]

Some of you are just too stupid for words. You think a president can just snap his fingers and do anything he wants. Making laws, particularly ones that are highly controversial, takes time in DC. Clinton learned that by trying to move to fast on this issue, he actually ended up going backwards. Obama is smarter and trying to do it in a way that will ultimately succeed. Some of you think everything bad in this country should've automatically changed on Jan 20 at noon. Such ignorance! I'm really ashamed at how stupidly the gay community has been acting in 2009.

I have dinner the other night with a man with strong ties to the defense department (he would've been undersecretary of defense in a Hillary administration) that Obama's working strongly behind the scenes with the DoD on the best way to reverse DADT, both politically and within the culture of the military. This man said it WILL happen before the midterm elections.

This sounds like one of those 'A friend of a friend of a friend told me this...' moments.

Look, I don't doubt that they've been discussing it behind the scenes, but who gives a flying flip? Until there is actual action on behalf of congress, Obama's pretty words amount to absolutely nothing. The only ones that can actually change the policy are congress, and so far the movements in congress have been modest at best.

 

[hotatlboi]

The only ones that can actually change the policy are congress, and so far the movements in congress have been modest at best.

Beginnings are always the hardest. But it looks very likely that the hate crimes bill will be law within the next few weeks. That will be the first national gay rights law in our nation's history.

 

[chillyboi]

good luck with that 1

 

[Kulindahr]

It could have done a lot of good even if it didn't include Transgendered persons at the time. It could have helped a lot. But, by that token then no state should be advancing marriage, civil union, domestic partnership, because it isn't inclusive. It would be better to wait until all could enjoy that benefit.

On that point, I'd quite like it if the goal was to just do away with government-sanctioned marriage, and just recognize whatever unions into which people decide to enter. On that, we ought in fact to be doing one thing the ReligioPublicans accuse us of doing: opening the door for polygamy, etc.

 

[hotatlboi]

I have heard stories (urban legend category to me but ...) that there are Congress members who are okay with ENDA for gays, but honestly fear including trans because (of the perception that) ladies rooms will be flooded with pre-op transsexuals. I don't believe it, but that's what I have read.

There is no excuse for ENDA not passing when > 80% of the public support workplace equality and have for years.

 

[Apollo]

does it also include protections for intersex person's. after all the are a sexual minority just like us. and if they are not included one should wait for a more inclusive bill.

the military doesnt allow transgendered people in. well, i dont think they allow people in the transition period to enter. your either a male or a female.

 

[Apollo]

Well by all means wait if it isn't inclusive it is worth the wait The whole intersex issue is an interesting one, and people generally don't grasp it... but by intersex i don't mean transition because I am not talking about MTF or FTM. I am talking about the ones born with ambiguous genitalia... It is interesting do you make the change at birth or wait for them to decide, or does a decision even need to be made... ??? I don't know, it is a philosophical toy...

Pass them now and adapt later... The benefit of who it can help now... justifies the wait... at least in my eyes... In a perfect world, it would be a different story...

fuck that shit. dont ask dont tell doesnt even mention intersex people. first there would need to be an allowance of intersex people into the military in the first place.

it's already hard enough trying to get dadt overturned, and intersex isn't even an issue people know exist. let dadt be struck down, and the next battle is allowing intersex people to serve.

but to be honest. dont they usually select a final gender before they are 18 or whatever anyway? or there parents usually do it for them?

why do people try and make things more difficult?

 

[Apollo]

Apollo I am just being arse about it... From some of the statement from the military folk out at the bases surrounding Tacoma, WA they could care less gay, straight, bi, or drag queen just so long as you uphold your oath... i know it isn't reflective of most... but for an ever increasing number of people they see the oath more important than the bedroom details... but the chicken little mentality is a hard one to overcome...

Sorry if the post sounded like I was angry. But seriously, fuck that shit.

But yeah, reading the military forums, on militartimes, they don't care as much as one would think. The ones that do have a problem usually have all types of religious excuses are just seem really uncomfortable with themselves.

 

[Apollo]

Nah Apollo I didn't read it as anger... and even if i did... you are entitled to it... the funny thing is some of the greatest warriors throughout history have been gay, bi, lesbian or whatever, and i very much bet that some of the tactics they used is studied at West Point...

Yeah, my long time hero is Alexander the Great, and he was supposedly bi, and his military tactics are still studied and marveled after.

If you look for the Moth Podcast, Dan Choi tells his story there and talks about the principles they teach them at West Point that wouldn't allow him to keep lying about his sexuality.

 

[Kulindahr]

There is no excuse for ENDA not passing when > 80% of the public support workplace equality and have for years.

Sure there is -- the Democrats in Congress don't believe in Democracy.
Of course, we knew that already -- they didn't impeach Cheney, they keep entertaining new gun control laws, they can't hammer out a simple health care bill....

Okay, that last one might be incompetence.

why do people try and make things more difficult?

Because it's easier to label than to think. When you stick a label on something, for most people that means there's no more need to think -- if you can name it, you know what it is, right?

That's a fallacy we looked at in philosophy class in college, and it applies all over the place: call them "fags", and you know they're not human; call them "Pugs", and you know they don't have to be taken seriously; call them "Dims", and you know they aren't worth listening to. Labeling is just a form of naming, and naming actually closes off understanding for the vast majority of people -- as opposed to giving a convenient tag for discussing something so you can understand it better (one of my favorite examples is "electron" -- most people have no clue what it really means, but accept it as something in an atom, so they think they know something; physicists have a bigger clue... enough that they really don't know much at all, so they keep studying).

Anyway, when you label, you generally stop communicating, and when you stop communicating, you make things more difficult. That's especially true when you try to take a spectrum and cram it into discrete categories which allow for no shades or variations. Surgeons deal with that regularly with births: a lot of babies show up with an extra finger (for example), and since we all know that "human" means "having four fingers and a thumb on each hand", surgeons just clip off the extra digit and "fix" it so the parents won't have to worry what they did wrong.

 

[Kulindahr]

It is a funny and strange world we live in... It isn't about ideas and solutions it is who they can pander to get the vote and the money that goes a long with it. Rocking the status quo is taboo in D.C. otherwise most of the problems would be resolved. It is true of all issues in D.C. whatever solution is watered down, bastardized so much that it is no longer a solution but a continuation of a problem... Health Care their is no solution because whatever plan the pick will take 10 years to enact... And, even if the Dems can control all three branches for the next 8 years they are still shy two more... But, the dems cant' even agree on a solution... Too many lobby groups and their money muddle democracy until it is no longer democracy but a series of bribes that are sometimes legal and sometimes not.

We have an oligarchic pseudo-democratic plutocracy.