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Obama Refuses to Series of Debates

Obama does better with his stump speech, while Hillary does better in small groups and at debates. In fact, debates are one of Obama's weak points. It's no surprise that he wouldn't want to debate and Hillary would.

However, that points to a WEE bit of a problem in Obama's whole message, namely we need to change our politics. Don't you think>

not sure i agree

i think obama's debate performance is good - not as good as it needs to be - but he has improved on his feet - that's what is carrying him - he is growing in stature before our eyes

hillary can be very good in debates - but not consistently

clearly she has a better command of the issues - or at least IMO she does

but he is more likeable - more amiable

so not sure i buy the hillary is better in debates thingy

i do agree that obama likely feels that his trend line is good - and why mess with that

strategic move - and i don't blame him

cuz he wants to be the dem candidate

and this is a good play
 
In fact, debates are one of Obama's weak points. It's no surprise that he wouldn't want to debate and Hillary would.
That was exactly my first thought when I read the article Lance posted. Why would he want to put himself in a place where he's clearly weaker than Hillary. She's killed him in every debate and will continue to do so.

However, that points to a WEE bit of a problem in Obama's whole message, namely we need to change our politics. Don't you think>
What do you mean here? I'm confused.
 
from what i've seen

chance

u don't know what u think

u can't make a decision

on a candidate

who did you vote for?

do u remember?

sorry u can't see it

i don't make hasty decisions

decisions before they r necessary

that's called exercising good judgement

voted for obama - cuz im a registered dem - in ny

hope that clears it up
 
yeah yeah

a vote for obama is a vote for mccain

how rove-ian

u imitate those u hate

not sure why u have to hate obama if u dig hillary

their positions r not so diff

just that obama wants what hillary thinks she's entitled to


Actually, I don't hate Obama, you or even Jack. As I have said many times, I want someone who is competent and can win.

As someone that supported Bush for so long and will almost certainly vote for McCain, I don't understand your interest in the Democratic side of this election, but if you have something positive to contribute, I would welcome it. Dismissiveness does not an argument make.
 
Actually, I don't hate Obama, you or even Jack. As I have said many times, I want someone who is competent and can win.

As someone that supported Bush for so long and will almost certainly vote for McCain, I don't understand your interest in the Democratic side of this election, but if you have something positive to contribute, I would welcome it. Dismissiveness does not an argument make.

"supporting" ur president and agreeing with him r not the same

i have never suggested bush has done a good much less great job - never

i just don't spew on him like u and others - unnecessarily IMO

as for "certainly vote for mccain" ........... good try - makes a good post - but im not sure what i will do - so not sure how ur so sure

as for democratic side of the election - im a reg dem - just not the dem that u r - i have an open mind

and ur the dismissive one - anyone that disagrees with u

and ur anti obama stuff suggests a pretty intense dislike

which is consistent with many of the hillary lovers here on JUB

IMO of course
 
There are less than 4 weeks until the Ohio primary. Agreeing to have two debates in that stretch doesn't seem that bad to me. Just because a candidate doesn't agree to go along 100% with the debate request of an opponent doesn't mean he or she is ducking it.
 
You're a Clinton supporter. I'm not an Obama supporter. However, he has the momentum, MORE campaign money, more nationwide support, did do better in the Midwest, appeals to most of John Edwards' base -- voters that most certainly will choose McCain if Clinton is nominated; and Obama will have more delegates once they are proportioned out. So with those T-R-U-T-H-S or F-A-C-T-S, Obama is closer to being the Democrat nominee than Clinton. There won't be four debates. He's the front-runner which makes the argument of those debates poorly relative. You may have to change your candidate, Lancelva. Democrats appear to be speaking everyday and most are saying Obama.

Having been an undecided voter until this week, I can no longer deny that Obama is the stronger candidate if only by mass appeal. He won't be weakened by the dark side of the Clinton legacy. The Republicans want Hillary; they're going to get Obama.

F-A-C-T-S: Mrs. Clinton lending 5M to her campaign, her dwindling lead in many national polls and her deseparation to coerce the Obama camp to agreeing to at least four debates are the signs of a troubled campaign. Like it or not, as the Obama camp says, this campaign is hers to lose; and it is slipping away rather rapidly.

Those, my friend, are the F-A-C-T-S.....

That's a great idea...let's do that here for a minute...

Given the weight of the aforementioned statements, why does Obama need to debate Clinton? I never thought I'd say this, but Senator Clinton's days in this race are numbered.

What weight? Just making a statement doesn't turn it into fact. So, again, let's review the facts (that's F-A-C-T-S for those who are slow).


As I told chance, the number of states doesn't matter here. Senator Clinton won more of the states with the larger populations--and when your counting votes, people matter. So you cannot place California, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, on the same level as Idaho, North Dakota, and Alabama.


Again, that's not true. Senator Clinton has raised over $8 million since Super Tuesday, bringing in over 75,000 new donors. These numbers are remarkable and are growing.


If you look at the Exit Polls, Senator Clinton is winning a much more diverse coalition of Democrats. She performs strongly among women, Latinos, voters 30 and over (in CA and MA she even won the youth vote), the Asian vote, and the blue-collar union workers, mothers, teachers, and laborors that make up the core of our Party. Obama only does well among men, African Americans, and in some states voters between 18-30. I wouldn't call that "all parts" of our Party.



In Missouri, Senator Clinton won 110 out of the state's 115 counties--performing very strongly in the rural areas that characterize much of the Midwest and South. In the Southern states, he was barely able to garner 10% of the white vote, which will certainly not make him formidable in a general election.



And your proof of that? Obama has never been tested in a tough general election campaign. And any Democrat--no matter who it is--is going to be attacked. We saw with the mistakes of the Kerry campaign what happens when I candidate is not prepared to handle these Republican smears.


According to nearly every current estimation, Clinton won both the Super Tuesday delegates and total delegates to date.
NY Times: Clinton - 912, Obama - 741
CNN: Clinton - 1,033, Obama - 937
Politico: Clinton - 1,000, Obama - 902
ABC: Clinton - 1,071, Obama - 994


That's just it--there is nothing new that the Republicans can throw at her. And after all she's been through, she is still doing remarkably well. This speaks volumes of her ability and character. As more people get to know her, the more they respect and admire her. It happened in New Hampshire, Massachusetts, California, New Jersey, etc.[/quote]
 
It really does not matter which person you support just as long as you can give a fairly intelligent answere as to WHY ... and .. NOT "Because she is a woman" or "Because He is African-American" ... etc ..
 
Lance,

I'm very impressed that you are so informed about politics. I supervised young adults your age and always stressed the importance of politics. So I find your commitment most commendable.

In looking at this election, I have considered Clinton, Obama and McCain only. I've never been a big fan of John McCain because of his numerous flip-flops in 2000 and subsequent alliance with George Bush. Now, I see a candidate who has found his niche. But, is this McCain the maverick? McCain the man of conviction? Or, are we seeing McCain the same old politician who has finally learned how to play the game? In November, who will emerge? I don't even want to take of chance of finding out. I doubt he will get my vote.

In Clinton, I see a toughness and grittiness. I voted for Bill Clinton and still have a great respect for him. I classify him as a good president who, for whatever reason, could never escape scandal. While his demons and legacy are not hers, both Clintons are linked forever in history by these events. From Whitewater to impeachment, do we really want to relive this? Trust me, there are Republican forces that will make us relive this.

You were only 6 six years old when Clinton took office. I actually lived through the eight years of scandals and turmoil. Still as I said, I'm a Bill Clinton man and don't completely blame him; but he did make it very easy for the Republican machine to nearly destroy his presidency. The country does not need to relive this and if you think they won't with a Clinton nomination, you are in denial. Also, Clinton will not hold Edwards' base. If that base crosses over to McCann, the Democrats will certianly lose the election.

Obama is another story. He is not soiled by the demons of the past. He is the new face of Democratic Party. His education credentals are impeccable, as are Clinton's. However, his message is addictive and campaign growing. He really can't be stopped unless he stops himself. Is he the total package? No candidate is. However, he as close as the Democrats will come to the White House. The nomination goes through Obama.

I hope Democrats are looking at their choices not because one candidate is African-American and the other is a woman -- although exit polling says that is the case. I will wait for the debates before I completely commit, but Democrats have to be honest about this, they need to nominate the better candidate. If Obama's message of change is just that --not a message with no susbstance or foundation, I believe he will have the nomination locked up. As for me, I'm starting to believe Obama is that candidate the Democrats need to regain the White House.

I still want to commend you on your commitment to your candidate and wish her, and the other cnadidates of both parties, much luck in the months to come.


The Clinton campaign offered to conduct weekly debates with Obama between now and the early March primaries in Ohio and Texas, but the candidate refused. Certainly voters should be able to see the choice presented to them, but the Obama camp isn't too interested in substantively defining their candidate. It's no suprise, of course, because he doesn't want to talk about solutions for America's problems. He isn't too concerned about substance. And that's unfortunate. If he does win the nomination, is he just going to refuse to debate McCain?

While his campaign eventually caved and agreed to two debates, it's a far cry from doing one a week.



This BS that Senator Clinton is somehow better known than he is in the country as an excuse for not debating her is ridiculous. All polls indicate that he has just as much name recognition as hers--just look at all the coverage he received leading up to Super Tuesday and after Iowa.

What's important to him is that voters see this illusionary, Messianic aura that's typical of his [strike]revivals[/strike] rallies instead of a clear contrast between the two candidates when it comes to substance.

And in Maine:

So his supporters "want to see him"--they don't want to hear a real substantive debate about our country's future? That's not really surprising.

In response to Obama backing away from actually debating the issues, our campaign manager wrote this letter to Obama's campaign manager:
 
"....Obama is an impoverished rising star, child of the ghetto"

Where'd that come from? He grew up in a middle-class family. As for the debates, the Clinton people want them to level the playing field while getting more airtime -- free airtime. You wanna talk about contempt for the voters, read Hillary Clinton's comments after the first caucases. Let's be fair on both sides. These debates are not for the voter; nor are they simply being requested by the Clinton camp for that purpose. They are being sought to help a troubled campaign. There is really no need for several debates. The voters have plenty of methods for researching the best candidate. Now who's spinning whom?

Lastly calling any of the candidates full of sh** is not necessary. We can disagree without sinking to that level.

guess we disagree

working change? by spinning for a rich and powerful woman and family? don't think so

people who spin for other politicians get skewered here left and right - especially those on GWB's payroll..

Yes, and Obama is an impoverished rising star, a child of the ghetto ..

Who HERE is on the GWB payroll?

As far as further debates go, there should be more one on one debates..

They should also be moderated by neutral parties, keep the assholes from the TV "news"networks out of it..

That Obama won't debate further, with almost a year before the elections, proves how shallow and transparent he is, how weak he is, and the contempt he has for the American voter..

How "inspiring"...

It really is getting harder and harder to not think he's completely full of shit..

Guess that's what passes for "hope" and "inspiration" for those easily fooled..
 
Very interesting article from the Wall Street Journal that sums up the Clinton campaign. It's not over, but dying.

Can Mrs. Clinton Lose?

By PEGGY NOONAN
February 8, 2008; Page W14

If Hillary Clinton loses, does she know how to lose? What will that be, if she loses? Will she just say, "I concede" and go on vacation at a friend's house on an island, and then go back to the Senate and wait?
Is it possible she could be so normal? Politicians lose battles, it's part of what they do, win and lose. But she does not know how to lose. Can she lose with grace? But she does grace the way George W. Bush does nuance.
She often talks about how tough she is. She has fought "the Republican attack machine" that has tried to "stop" her, "end" her, and she knows "how to fight them." She is preoccupied to an unusual degree with toughness. A man so preoccupied would seem weak. But a woman obsessed with how tough she is just may be lethal.
Does her sense of toughness mean that every battle in which she engages must be fought tooth and claw, door to door? Can she recognize the line between burly combat and destructive, never-say-die warfare? I wonder if she is thinking: What will it mean if I win ugly? What if I lose ugly? What will be the implications for my future, the party's future? What will black America, having seen what we did in South Carolina, think forever of me and the party if I do low things to stop this guy on the way to victory? Can I stop, see the lay of the land, imitate grace, withdraw, wait, come back with a roar down the road? Life is long. I am not old. Or is that a reverie she could never have? What does it mean if she could never have it?
We know she is smart. Is she wise? If it comes to it, down the road, can she give a nice speech, thank her supporters, wish Barack Obama well, and vow to campaign for him?
It either gets very ugly now, or we will see unanticipated--and I suspect professionally saving--grace.
I ruminate in this way because something is happening. Mrs. Clinton is losing this thing. It's not one big primary, it's a rolling loss, a daily one, an inch-by-inch deflation. The trends and indices are not in her favor. She is having trouble raising big money, she's funding her campaign with her own wealth, her moral standing within her own party and among her own followers has been dragged down, and the legacy of Clintonism tarnished by what Bill Clinton did in South Carolina. Unfavorable primaries lie ahead. She doesn't have the excitement, the great whoosh of feeling that accompanies a winning campaign. The guy from Chicago who was unknown a year ago continues to gain purchase, to move forward. For a soft little innocent, he's played a tough and knowing inside/outside game.
The day she admitted she'd written herself a check for $5 million, Obama's people crowed they'd just raised $3 million. But then his staff is happy. They're all getting paid.
Political professionals are leery of saying, publicly, that she is losing, because they said it before New Hampshire and turned out to be wrong. Some of them signaled their personal weariness with Clintonism at that time, and fear now, as they report, to look as if they are carrying an agenda. One part of the Clinton mystique maintains: Deep down journalists think she's a political Rasputin who will not be dispatched. Prince Yusupov served him cupcakes laced with cyanide, emptied a revolver, clubbed him, tied him up and threw him in a frozen river. When he floated to the surface they found he'd tried to claw his way from under the ice. That is how reporters see Hillary.
And that is a grim and over-the-top analogy, which I must withdraw. What I really mean is they see her as the Glenn Close character in "Fatal Attraction": "I won't be ignored, Dan!"
* * *
Mr. Obama's achievement on Super Tuesday was solid and reinforced trend lines. The popular vote was a draw, the delegate count a rough draw, but he won 13 states, and when you look at the map he captured the middle of the country from Illinois straight across to Idaho, with a second band, in the northern Midwest, of Minnesota and North Dakota. He won Missouri and Connecticut, in Mrs. Clinton's backyard. He won the Democrats of the red states.
On the wires Wednesday her staff was all but conceding she is not going to win the next primaries. Her superdelegates are coming under pressure that is about to become unrelenting. It was easy for party hacks to cleave to Mrs Clinton when she was inevitable. Now Mr. Obama's people are reportedly calling them saying, Your state voted for me and so did your congressional district. Are you going to jeopardize your career and buck the wishes of the people back home?
Mrs. Clinton is stoking the idea that Mr. Obama is too soft to withstand the dread Republican attack machine. (I nod in tribute to all Democrats who have succeeded in removing the phrase "Republican and Democratic attack machines" from the political lexicon. Both parties have them.) But Mr. Obama will not be easy for Republicans to attack. He will be hard to get at, hard to address. There are many reasons, but a primary one is that the fact of his race will freeze them. No one, no candidate, no party, no heavy-breathing consultant, will want to cross any line--lines that have never been drawn, that are sure to be shifting and not always visible--in approaching the first major-party African-American nominee for president of the United States.
* * *
He is the brilliant young black man as American dream. No consultant, no matter how opportunistic and hungry, will think it easy--or professionally desirable--to take him down in a low manner. If anything, they've learned from the Clintons in South Carolina what that gets you. (I add that yes, there are always freelance mental cases, who exist on both sides and are empowered by modern technology. They'll make their YouTubes. But the mad are ever with us, and this year their work will likely stay subterranean.)

With Mr. Obama the campaign will be about issues. "He'll raise your taxes." He will, and I suspect Americans may vote for him anyway. But the race won't go low.
Mrs. Clinton would be easier for Republicans. With her cavalcade of scandals, they'd be delighted to go at her. They'd get medals for it. Consultants would get rich on it.
The Democrats have it exactly wrong. Hillary is the easier candidate, Mr. Obama the tougher. Hillary brings negative; it's fair to hit her back with negative. Mr. Obama brings hope, and speaks of a better way. He's not Bambi, he's bulletproof.
The biggest problem for the Republicans will be that no matter what they say that is not issue oriented--"He's too young, he's never run anything, he's not fully baked"--the mainstream media will tag them as dealing in racial overtones, or undertones. You can bet on this. Go to the bank on it.
The Democrats continue not to recognize what they have in this guy. Believe me, Republican professionals know. They can tell.
 
What do you mean here? I'm confused.

I think that Obama is just playing usual hardball politics. If he REALLY wanted to change politics, he'd be arguing on the issues. But he shows us, as he has since the beginning of this campaign, that he's light on the issues. So he doesn't want to talk about them.

That's why I think it's a little weasely to shirk more debates with Hillary, and it's also why I think Obama shouldn't be our party's nominee.
 
not sure i agree

i think obama's debate performance is good - not as good as it needs to be - but he has improved on his feet - that's what is carrying him - he is growing in stature before our eyes

hillary can be very good in debates - but not consistently

clearly she has a better command of the issues - or at least IMO she does

but he is more likeable - more amiable

so not sure i buy the hillary is better in debates thingy

i do agree that obama likely feels that his trend line is good - and why mess with that

strategic move - and i don't blame him

cuz he wants to be the dem candidate

and this is a good play

There are two calculations here

Who is likely to win if the race is close – my guess would be Obama

Who will be able to deliver what they promise – my guess is Clinton

Both would be a far better President than McCain
 
Lance,

Obama took three more state today. Unfortunately, the debate over the debates will be moot.

The Clinton campaign offered to conduct weekly debates with Obama between now and the early March primaries in Ohio and Texas, but the candidate refused. Certainly voters should be able to see the choice presented to them, but the Obama camp isn't too interested in substantively defining their candidate. It's no suprise, of course, because he doesn't want to talk about solutions for America's problems. He isn't too concerned about substance. And that's unfortunate. If he does win the nomination, is he just going to refuse to debate McCain?

While his campaign eventually caved and agreed to two debates, it's a far cry from doing one a week.



This BS that Senator Clinton is somehow better known than he is in the country as an excuse for not debating her is ridiculous. All polls indicate that he has just as much name recognition as hers--just look at all the coverage he received leading up to Super Tuesday and after Iowa.

What's important to him is that voters see this illusionary, Messianic aura that's typical of his [strike]revivals[/strike] rallies instead of a clear contrast between the two candidates when it comes to substance.

And in Maine:

So his supporters "want to see him"--they don't want to hear a real substantive debate about our country's future? That's not really surprising.

In response to Obama backing away from actually debating the issues, our campaign manager wrote this letter to Obama's campaign manager:
 
Losing/Dying campaigns always demand more debates. Ascendant/winning campaigns always refuse them.
 
Sorry but I think the "Gay friendly" candidate angle is overrated. Bush was not gay friendly and Bill Clinton was, I don't see where either made that much of a difference to the gay community (i.e. in a positive or negative way). I doubt Obama's views on gays will prove to be the deal breaker here. Tonight, he moves closer to the nomination. So gay or not, it's him or McCain who, like George Bush, will transform from moderate to conversative knowing that without the Christian base, he has zero chance of beating Obama in November.

Also debates are filled with the same grandstanding, empty promises and rhetoric uttered in campaign speeches. We don't need more debates. It's the responsibility of the voter to educate himself and cut through the smoke and mirrors of campaign speeches, advertising and grandstanding. At the most, Obama should only commit to two more debates. He has gained the ground needed to take the lead. I agree with him when he says he and Clinton should be spending more time meeting the people and focusing on them and not debates.

He's correct. She needs to gain ground on him in the trenches not on the stage.


Let them debate until the final vote is in. That is why it should be anyway. Each of them can say this and that in speaches, but put them on the spot in a debate and you see the real person. I don''t listen to the speaches that they make. It is just grand standing and people lab it up like a dog. That is not who they are,they are showing you what you want to see. Obama is working on a hope and a prayer and emotions and feelings. It works for him, but I just think that Clinton is based a little more in reality.

Also have any of you guys really read up on Obama and his view of gays. Have you really looked at the church he attends and their views of gays. I would suggest that you go and look at his church and read up on some of the views of their members about gay men.
 
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