Obama's Health Care Speech

[NickCole]

Though it does (from polls) appear to have been a personally profitable night for Obama -- and, as Elizabeth Edwards put it last night, an adult president seems to have put an end to an August where the country went to the circus --

I think, with due respect, Elizabeth Edwards should tend to her marriage and young children and her own health concerns. I, for one, don't care what she has to say about the relative maturity of anyone since she was trying to help her husband run for President when she knew full well he'd had a smarmy affair that, if he'd been elected and the affair revealed, would weaken the President and the Democratic Party's agenda.

I believe most progressives (save the "Single payer or nothing" crowd) felt supported last night, ...

The "public option or nothing" crowd did not feel supported last night. Much of that crowd wanted single payer and already compromised with that loss. They sincerely believe, as do I, that to lose the public option would turn HCR into a bad bill.

 

[NickCole]

Misogynist much? Good grief. This is 2009, not 1959.

I think John Edwards should do the same. In fact if it meant anything I'd think it double for him.

What kind of ist do you claim that makes me?

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

reading your posts in this thread, sure sounds like you did.

Sounds like I did what? Though we do practice laizze faire economics? Show me where it looks like I actually think that. As a former history teacher and former political somethingoranother I can't imagine I said we have such a system.

You're defending the insurance company raising their prices several times above that of inflation because no one thinks it is fair?

Again, show me where I'm defending the insurance companies rates rising several times inflation...

Anyway, you can take my good (or bad) insite as it is with the colorful republitard logo, or you can discard it. Your choice really.

I think I'll do the latter.

 

[NickCole]

As do I, but like I keep telling you, that hasn't happened yet. If after the House/Senate wrangling when the final bill is forged Obama fails to give us a solid heath-care plan that includes a public option, THEN I will agree with your criticism. Until then, I'm not nitpicking something that hasn't played out yet just to satisfy a pre-existing "I hate Obama" bias.

I don't hate Obama.

You and I disagree about what he'll do, that's all.

We both will wait to see what happens. And in the meantime we both will express our opinions. Mine is not more or less deserving of respect than yours.

 

[Kulindahr]

I feel it is a insult to Abraham Lincoln to call these people who identify as republicans republicans. They are nothing like the original party, and shouldn't be allowed to have the same name.

That's okay; today's Democrats are totally unlike the original party -- for people like the original Democrats, look to libertarians.

YEAH!!! Let them die in the streets the wankers!!!!!!!

Oh, come on -- I don't want to have to drive around them!

Would you answer a serious question? What do you propose to be done with an illegal alien who is seriously hurt while working for corporate America who shelters and takes advantage of him/her?

Fix 'em up.
Then bill the company.
Then fine everyone involved in the hiring process, and put the money in an endowment for that hospital, for paying for people who can't pay their bills.

It's the people who "fear the brown horde" that are calling for walls and INS prisons.

Most of the people I know who are calling for such things are merely in favor of people following the law.

 

[NickCole]

Oh don't get me wrong, Obama is not MY choose as an optimum leader either, but there's idealistic Nik (who gets involved in activist causes and altruistic work he cares about) and realistic Nik (who recognizes he will not get the kind of candidate he wants from the Democrats in this lifetime, so he'll opt instead for the lesser of evils).

Well, it's refreshing every time I come across an Obama supporter who's a genuine idealist.

Let me just point out that the Left Blogosphere needling Obama to be more of a pitbull on this issue (before it even gets past the Senate Finance Committee) would have screamed at the compromises FDR made to get Social Security through.

Interesting. Which compromises do you think would send the left blogosphere screaming?

 

[chance1]

Most Disturbing.

now that's the definition of irony

 

[chance1]

Really? I think Gay Republican is.

love the color coordination

but my reference applies sweetie

urs doesn't

and we've been thru that time and again

ur definition of "republican" is anyone to the center of leftwingnut

ur definition suggests that the majority of the population are republican

 

[chance1]

^^ Do you guys have to make EVERY thread in the CE&P section about the same old tired personal attacks unsubtly coded as political discourse and "witty" banter? This thread was about Obama's Health Care Speech. If you're looking for Bitchy Gay Dems vs Bitchy Gay Repubs Round 459, I'm sure there are a dozen or so other threads in this section that would fit the bill.

get over urself Nik

having a little fun is all with this one

u should know the difference

 

[chance1]

^^ It wasn't only aimed at you chance. Lots of people in this section -- liberals and conservatives alike -- are guilty of it. I'm fine with a little fun digression but it seems like ALL the threads in this section always devolve into the same tired "You suck" back-and-forth.

In this thread alone, there are about five different "conversations" going on while only two or three people are actually talking about Obama's speech which is, you know, in the title and all.

got it - thought it was directed at mine and alfies what i would consider playful "fuck yous" which i enjoy

as for the sniping .............. i guess i am just more used to it

hate it too

do it more than i should for sure

have a good one nik

 

[NickCole]

FDR'S original Social Security Act excluded agricultural workers (major part of the 1935 economy), excluded domestic workers, didn't cover federal, state or local government employees, didn't cover the self-employed, didn't cover railroad employees, didn't cover nonprofit employees, and didn't cover the clergy. There were no dependent or survivor benefits, no cost-of-living increase, and nothing for the disabled.

I see Obama's tried to draw this parallel between his HCR and FDR's SS but there are some big differences between them. The main thing in this context is FDR fashioned SS out of whole cloth. As I recall, he set up some kind of commission that came up with SS. Obama's HCR is a hybrid of many plan elements discussed over many years. The elements you list that were excluded from the original SS bill were not things Democrats had been trying to accomplish for years, so there was not the feeling, as there is today among many progressives, that now is finally our chance to get what we've been waiting for and talking about all this time and Obama promised he'd do. The left blogosphere is not complaining that Obama is negotiating and compromising, they swallowed his dismissal of single-payer with nary a peep, and there have been other compromises they've stayed mostly quiet about (some of them pretty troubling like his deal with Pharma), but a public option is different. Without it, the individual mandate (which during the campaign Obama insisted wouldn't be part of his HCR but now is) is a gift to private insurance and probably too burdensome on many Americans.

Further, what you list that was excluded in FDR's SS are groups, not basic structural elements of the program. As far as I've seen the Left Blogosphere isn't complaining about excluded groups, which can be added in later, like illegal immigrants who're apparently being quickly excluded from the Gang of 6 plan, but about basic structural elements like a public option.

 

[NickCole]

That said, you are right, we did interupt your dialog with NickCole.

Did you say something?

 

[NickCole]

Reading some of these liberal cry-babies (not you, this time lol) I really get the impression they have no idea how this system works.

With due respect, Pozzo , Arianna Huffington and I have been at this rodeo before. Many times more than you have.

You may be right or we may be right, but dismissing our concern as having no idea how the system works when, in truth, we've been involved in the system many more years than you, is not only disrespectful but also backwards.

Were you involved in the system during the Clinton years? I was. The Bush I years? Reagan years? I was. Carter? Ford? Nixon? I was involved in the system then too. I was part of the draft lottery for Viet Nam and part of the anti-war movement. I was fighting for rights and dealing with Congresspeople and the way the system works before your bottom knew what a diaper was, before you had a bottom, before there was a you. That doesn't make me smarter than you and it doesn't mean I'm right but it earns me something better than being called a cry baby (not this time lol) by someone who's just arrived at the rodeo.

I know how the system works and so does Huffington. You might want to consider the possibility of learning from people with first hand experience rather than dismissing them as cry babies.

 

[Kulindahr]

FDR'S original Social Security Act excluded agricultural workers (major part of the 1935 economy), excluded domestic workers, didn't cover federal, state or local government employees, didn't cover the self-employed, didn't cover railroad employees, didn't cover nonprofit employees, and didn't cover the clergy. There were no dependent or survivor benefits, no cost-of-living increase, and nothing for the disabled.

OMG he sounds like today's Republicans -- help as few as you can!

^^ Do you guys have to make EVERY thread in the CE&P section about the same old tired personal attacks unsubtly coded as political discourse and "witty" banter? This thread was about Obama's Health Care Speech. If you're looking for Bitchy Gay Dems vs Bitchy Gay Repubs Round 459, I'm sure there are a dozen or so other threads in this section that would fit the bill.

^ I hadn't realized you were in charge of this forum. My mistake. As the conduct of some members displeases you, I guesss we should all conform to your standards.

He doesn't have to be "in charge" to be able to point out the tiring repetitiveness of the cognitively-thin partisan potshots that fill up so much space -- stuff generally identifiable by name-calling and snide attitude.

Maybe the health plan should include "Bitchy Gay Dem/Repub" panels, which will determine that such people get no health care until they actually mature.

 

[naked gent]

I know how the system works and so does Huffington. You might want to consider the possibility of learning from people with first hand experience rather than dismissing them as cry babies.

Had you read Nik2's post a little closer Nick you would see that he exempted you from those who don't know how the system works but you could not stop yourself from lecturing him merely because he's younger than you.

As for Ms. Huffington I'd be interested to hear about the lessons she learned in how the system works during the Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Reagan yrs.

 

[Kulindahr]

Quoted for excellent turn of phrase:

I guess I'm just frustrated by the never-ending and never-evolving Gay Dems vs Gay Repubs Groundhog Day in this section ....

We've been here before Estragon, I recognize that tree.

And many of them -- with Arianna Huffington leading way -- seem to not understand how the system works. The Senate Finance Committee is the most conservative (and therefore difficult) group this bill will have to get past, so it may originally have to be unencumbered by the public option in order to achieve that. But merely getting it past that Rubicon is not tantamount to abandoning the public option altogether, because of course, the REAL details will be decided later in the House/Senate conferences.

Reading some of these liberal cry-babies (not you, this time lol) I really get the impression they have no idea how this system works.

I just had this image of Walter Cronkite with a chart, explaining to the public just how the process works to get a bill like this, and where we are in the process.
That got replaced by an image of Ross Perot doing the same thing...
followed by Big Bird, doing it with a big picture board where he sticks on book-like icons labeled with the names of the legislative items....

It would be nice if we had a real press, who would actually take the time to do that. It should have come right after the president's speech, before any "responses" or commentary. As another thread has noted, this has become too much like sports; we want commentary and scoring even when we don't know what the game is. Indeed, Obama would be wise to add that to his website: a chart showing where the pieces of legislation are, and where they have to go -- sort of like a board for the game Life, even with little signs that say "Here you count votes", or "Make amendments", or "Return to committee?" and such. It would provide a rational basis for discussion and involvement (especially if we could click on a committee name and find out who's on it!), and <gasp> educate the public.

 

[Kulindahr]

More to the topic...

I sat with my mom while listening to the speech (free dessert and better reception are hard to turn down), and she said something at one point that stuck with me: that if it hadn't been for the government health care already provided, along with SS, only one of the members of her quilting group would be alive and/or functioning -- and that would mean that 347 quilts would not have been made, with a few being auctioned to pay for the rest, and the rest shipped off as gifts for the poor in various places (I lose track of where all they've gone, but Rwanda, Baja California, India, and inner city Chicago come to mind, at a couple of hundred quilts per year). Then there was the emergency shipment of kid-size quilts to someplace that had an outbreak of some childhood disease.

I make no claims as to how that may extrapolate elsewhere (churches in this town really work at caring for people, for one thing, something not universally true), but it points up the fact that benefiting some with health care indirectly benefits more.

 

[NickCole]

Had you read Nik2's post a little closer Nick you would see that he exempted you from those who don't know how the system works

Look closer.

Nik exempted me "this time," which means other times he'd include me.

And I'm glad he did because if he thinks that about Huffington and other middle aged Democrats who're fighting for real health care reform, then he should include me. I wasn't insulted, I was trying to explain why he's wrong that we're cry babies who don't understand the system.

but you could not stop yourself from lecturing him merely because he's younger than you.

Has nothing to do with his age. I've been having a good discussion with him, at least I think so, and hope to continue. He's smart and knowledgable and clear headed, and seems to have a genuine idealism/pragmatism that I admire. His age is irrelevant to me. I raised it in this instance only because he said people like Huffington and I (though not this time) are cry babies who don't know how the system works.

Because our knowledge of how the system works is a direct result of many years dealing with or observing it, age is specifically relevant to my making that point. Nik, or anyone, may disagree with Huffington's (or my) take on events, and he may be right and we may be wrong, but we've earned our bona fides for knowing how the system works. I mentioned Nik's age in a subtle (or maybe not so subtle) attempt to point out that I haven't and wouldn't dismiss his opinions as those of a cry baby who doesn't know how the system works even though he has little experience with it -- and I believe my opinions, with decades of experience behind them, deserve the same respect.

 

[NickCole]

Nik2, sorry I misunderstood your meaning.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Kulindahr]

Why thank you. But what, no love for my crack at Pelosi asking Biden to hold her gold?

Someone else congratulated you for that, so I passed.