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Occupy Wall Street

^ Let's see... You have a crowd of people rushing to help Scott Olsen who has been bludgeoned by a tear gas projectile. The Oakland police proceed to fire more tear gas on the gathered crowd trying to help the man...

Do you really need to see more here? Are you saying somehow this crowd of individuals deserved being shot at with more tear gas while trying to help a bleeding man going into a coma?
 
Hey, Jack. I want to take a moment to comment on your recent remarks.

I understand where you're coming from. The police were ordered by the city to remove the protestors out of the park. When you have a few protestors (a few, not the general crowd) throwing bottles and rocks at the police officers, that's certainly inappropriate.

However, there are a few additional details in this situation:

1. The police removed the protestors in full riot gear. That's an intimidating presence to suddenly show up, when previous protestor movements have not had that kind of police response.

The officers were there to lawfully remove the protestors from the park, not to simply maintain order or a perimeter. There were 1000 protestors. Helmets, face shields and extermally worn body armor is defensive in nature. But I agree that the appearance of 500 officers in riot gear is intimidating. It is supposed to be.

2. When you have police officers in full riot gear, it invokes fear into a crowd of people. With varying different types of personalities and behaviors, a few individuals will impulsively switch into a violent mode to protect themselves and "drive away" such a force. That's just human nature, and for the police to dress up in full riot gear in anticipation for such behavior, did not warrant what I address next.

Policing is accomplished mostly by willing cooperation of citizens. Secondly, it is accomplished by a fear of force. Think about it. Why do you not speed when you see a marked police car? Because there is a very real possibility that you will be stopped and summonsed. Now given that, what does a rational person do when he sees a cadre of officers telling him that he's in violation of the law and to leave the park? The rational person leaves. Yes, there are people who will react inappropriately as you've described. Particularly in a large group dynamic. It's not predicated on the officers attire, but the anonymity provided by the group. They think they won't get caught.

3. The use of chemical weapons like tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. as a response to bottles and rocks is obviously disproportionate. These protestors weren't in riot gear. They had no molotov cocktails or similar weapons to fight back. Proof of how peaceful they were was evident in how most people who were arrested that night went peacefully. The police had hardly any problems arresting people. So there was no reason for them to use such weapons against a crowd of peaceful protestors. The fact that one of those weapons has almost killed an Iraq war veteran speaks proof to the unnecessary and embarrassing force that was used by the Oakland police that night.

I've discussed the use of force continuum previously, but it bears repeating. Then law allows police to use one level of force over what is being offered. It is, and has been for decades, appropriate to use teargas on crowds refusing to move when ordered to do so. The use of chemical irritants makes people leave with haste accomplishing the objective with little more than discomfort. Others have been critical of the use of "military" weapons whatever that means. The fact is, if these less lethal means are not available, then the officers will utilize more lethal forms of force. A rock is weapon that can cause serious bodily injury and death under certain circumstances. People can be shot for hurling rocks. That is a brutal truth. So, would you prefer being hit with a rubber bullet or a real one?

As a society, we need to come to terms that this Occupy Wall Street movement is not going away. These people deserve more respect than this.

There is no need for them to go away, but to comply with the law. It's part of what is called the Social Compact. The granting of permits to assemble has been upheld as being Constitutional. Apply for the permit to do whatever you want and be on your way. Respect is generally a two way street. The protestors need to have respect for the law and the Constitutional rights of others.

The plan to further riot, in the form of "shutting down" downtown Oakland and impairing the ability of business owners to earn a living is ill advised. That's not going to go well.
 
^ Let's see... You have a crowd of people rushing to help Scott Olsen who has been bludgeoned by a tear gas projectile. The Oakland police proceed to fire more tear gas on the gathered crowd trying to help the man...

Do you really need to see more here? Are you saying somehow this crowd of individuals deserved being shot at with more tear gas while trying to help a bleeding man going into a coma?

From what I've seen and read, they still don't know what hit the guy.

I think this is just too much attention to a little event in Oakland.

How many people were murdered in Oakland since that event happened -- that would be a subject to talk about.
 
^Nobody wants to see anybody get injured. That needs to be the top priority. What should happen is that there be a meeting between the police and whoever wants to be in charge of the other group.

The police need to acknowledge the rights of the protestors under the first Amendment. The protestors need to acknowledge their responsibility to comply with the law regarding these assemblies.

Everybody needs to agree on what will and will not be permitted, as well as the consequences for going outside those boundaries.

A little communication goes a long way.
 
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

-- Thomas Jefferson

I like this quote. Ring any bells?
 
^Nobody wants to see anybody get injured. That needs to be the top priority. What should happen is that there be a meeting between the police and whoever wants to be in charge of the other group.

The police need to acknowledge the rights of the protestors under the first Amendment. The protestors need to acknowledge their responsibility to comply with the law regarding these assemblies.

Everybody needs to agree on what will and will not be permitted, as well as the consequences for going outside those boundaries.

A little communication goes a long way.

After the initial brutality of the NYPD, things have settled down here. However, the upper level police commander who pepper sprayed two women for no reason was disciplined with a loss of two weeks vacation and transfer to Staten Island. A slap on the wrist. He should have been discharged and prosecuted.

What does it say to the general public when a high ranking police official, who should be setting an example for rank and file officers and making sure they don't engage in appropriate conduct, gets away with public brutality and criminal conduct? How can public officials expect citizens to have confidence that the police will treat them fairly when this sort of police misbehavior is treated so leniently?
 
I watched Fiddler on the roof last night and this line struck me as appropriate for these times.

In fact, if the rich could hire others to die for them, we, the poor, would all make a nice living!
 
I like this quote. Ring any bells?

Yes, it does. But the alleged point of this group is to complain about Wall Street, not the overthrow of the government. Or have they changed their minds again? I'm not on their email list.
 
After the initial brutality of the NYPD, things have settled down here. However, the upper level police commander who pepper sprayed two women for no reason was disciplined with a loss of two weeks vacation and transfer to Staten Island. A slap on the wrist. He should have been discharged and prosecuted.

What does it say to the general public when a high ranking police official, who should be setting an example for rank and file officers and making sure they don't engage in appropriate conduct, gets away with public brutality and criminal conduct? How can public officials expect citizens to have confidence that the police will treat them fairly when this sort of police misbehavior is treated so leniently?

It says the system works pretty well. $6 K in fines and banishment to Staten Island? Fairly harsh, IMO.

Seriously, the matter has been subject to review by the DA who decided to send it back to the civilian review board for action. A group of citizens decided this was the appropriate way to settle the matter.
 
Yes, it does. But the alleged point of this group is to complain about Wall Street, not the overthrow of the government. Or have they changed their minds again? I'm not on their email list.

And who funds the campaigns and lobbies for legislation? The protestors are exactly where they need to be.
 
It says the system works pretty well. $6 K in fines and banishment to Staten Island? Fairly harsh, IMO.

Seriously, the matter has been subject to review by the DA who decided to send it back to the civilian review board for action. A group of citizens decided this was the appropriate way to settle the matter.

For what he did, that is extremely lenient. I'm familiar with how the police department treats its civilian employees, and they will suspend or fire them for fairly minor infractions. He is an upper level supervisor, and in the presence of the police officers he is supervising, he commits and act of police brutality. He should have lost his job at a minimum. This is the reason so many citizens do not have confidence that they will be treated fairly by the police.

The civilian review board is a joke. I have friends who were mistreated by the police. They were called fags, roughed up, hand-cuffed on the street, for doing nothing wrong beyond complaining about reckless driving by plain clothes cops. The civilian review board did not do shit, the officers involved weren't disciplined in the least.

Also, he lives on Staten Island, so his daily commute will now be much easier.
 
For what he did, that is extremely lenient. I'm familiar with how the police department treats its civilian employees, and they will suspend or fire them for fairly minor infractions. He is an upper level supervisor, and in the presence of the police officers he is supervising, he commits and act of police brutality. He should have lost his job at a minimum. This is the reason so many citizens do not have confidence that they will be treated fairly by the police.

The civilian review board is a joke. I have friends who were mistreated by the police. They were called fags, roughed up, hand-cuffed on the street, for doing nothing wrong beyond complaining about reckless driving by plain clothes cops. The civilian review board did not do shit, the officers involved weren't disciplined in the least.

Also, he lives on Staten Island, so his daily commute will now be much easier.


Well, you have the unions to blame. You know those folks who so many defended with all that fervor during the Wisconsin issue earlier this year? Truth is, it's damned near impossible to fire bad public employees represented by unions. Teachers and cops have the stronger unions, so they are the most difficult to discipline or remove.

Civilian review boards are about worthless. Their decisions get overturned regularly, because they are incompetent. But it's what NYC wanted, so I hope they are enjoying them. A well run IA works far better.
 
I mentioned in a previous post (#811) that you need to watch for Officer Gonzalez' name to come up in the police brutal attack on Occupy Oakland. Well here he is in all his glory. Armed with his Tear Gas Canister.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011...ty.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

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by Ali Winston

Friday, October 28 2011, 10:25 AM EST

Deadly Secrets: How Calif. Law Shields Oakland Police Violence

Over 2,500 people have been arrested across the United States as the Occupy Wall Street movement has spread from its genesis in Lower Manhattan to over 1,000 American cities and municipalities, where occupiers struggle with city officials for control of public spaces. But the previous scenes of mass arrests in places like Chicago’s Grant Park and on the Brooklyn Bridge paled in comparison with the chaos that broke out in Oakland this week.

--snip--

Among the worst of them is Sgt. Patrick Gonzales. Over the course of his career, Gonzales has shot four people, three fatally, and been accused of repeated beatings and public strip searches of suspects. In the predominantly black neighborhoods he has policed for 13 years, Gonzales has long been widely known as a loose cannon. Despite Gonzales’ history of questionable uses of force and the $3.6 million paid out by Oakland to settle lawsuits involving him, he is also deployed repeatedly for crowd control. He was videotaped firing projectiles at anti-war protesters in 2003, he was at the November 2010 protest of Mehserle’s verdict and a photograph of him at the Oct. 25 Occupy Oakland raid (above) shows him wearing a gas mask and riot gear, with a tear-gas canister clutched in his hand.

--snip--

But while questions remain over the conduct of outside law enforcement on Oct. 25, ultimately it is the Oakland Police Department that will have to answer for the scenes of chaos. There is a good chance this latest incident will put Oakland’s short-staffed police department under federal receivership, posing yet another financial quandary for a city with a 17 percent unemployment rate, 30 percent more murders than last year and a general strike set for Nov. 2.
 

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And this is relevant why? He shot and killed three people. So what? Sometimes the police kill people, or haven't you heard? He apparently does a better job of it than most cops. I don't see any innocent bystanders getting shot, so he should be commended.

He was accused of blah, blah blah? So what? Was he found to have done of any of it? Accusations count for pretty much zippo.

And he was holding a tear gas container at a riot? Whatever for?

He's apparently a 13 year veteran who has been promoted to a supervisory role. Given the extreme left wing proclivities of Oakland, he can't be the loose cannon they claim in this article.

In addition, Sgt. Gonzales who is a SWAT supervisor, was himself shot trying to apprehend a murderer. Odd how your story missed that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shootings_of_Oakland_police_officers
 
How about you reading the link I gave. He is continuously doing unlawful things. He shot a man in the back for no reason and killed him, the city keeps him on. I hope after the investigation of Scott's injury they find Gonzalez did it.
You are constantly praising these no good officers. You know they are wrong in what they do. I'm surprised by you.
I have found a couple of videos, Will be right back.
 
I have heard the American police asked some videos of police brutality against protesters to be removed from the net... Ccc... hypocritical. On one side the US authorities fight for democracy in other parts of the world, post the videos on main stream medias of brutal torture against Gadhafi, but try to hide own brutality!

My pure support to those who OCCUPY WALL STRRET! Go people, go! You can do it!
 
How about you reading the link I gave. He is continuously doing unlawful things. He shot a man in the back for no reason and killed him, the city keeps him on. I hope after the investigation of Scott's injury they find Gonzalez did it.
You are constantly praising these no good officers. You know they are wrong in what they do. I'm surprised by you.
I have found a couple of videos, Will be right back.

Maybe you should go back and read it. There is nothing in there about Gonzales shooting anybody in the back. That's a lie.

And exactly what court of law has adjudicated Gonzales of having engaged in any unlawful actions? Or is it just this idiot left wing screwball you've cited who thinks so?

Why exactly would you hope that Gonzales harmed Scott? Isn't the object of the exercise to find out what happened? Or shall we just throw a rope over the tree and hang Gonzales, because it happens to fit your view of the world. We used to do that with Black folks, didn't we? It's no more fair now then it was then.

Sorry, but you've earned an Epic Fail award on this one.
 
No your the fail. the guy Gonzalez shot in the back was black.
I will be back with links
 
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