Occupy Wall Street

[White Eagle]

One poster here has repeatedly said it was not rape when a man was charged with raping a 14yo girl. He blamed the rape on the girl. Said it was all her responsibility. How is that a lie?

We live in a country of laws. Respect the laws, even though you may not agree with all of them.

If you associate yourself with a bank robbery by riding in the get-a-way car and don't report the crime or remove yourself from the scene - you are guilty of the the crime.

We have laws for a reason.

Kuli, it's extremely hard for me to believe that you believe in anarchy. I hope you are just playing the devil's advocate in this discussion.

I think that your reference of "one poster here" is me. I did not say it was one, It's the same thing I've been saying. Someone said she was raped, From the article it wasn't even known she was 14. Besides they found the rapist and I say good. Now let's get on with the thread. You don't need to go on about nothing.

 

[White Eagle]

What? You've never heard of omnipresence? You develop it when you vote Republican.

I got nothing.

 

[palemale]

You make no sense.

Have you ever heard of Rosa Parks?

 

[Kulindahr]

it is not right. It is not moral. it is NOT legal.

But they have your attention now, don't they

these kids are playing the conservatives who are in bed with Wall street like a harp.

I wonder what King George thought when he read these words of Jefferson? indignation? disrespected?

Whose side do you think he would be on RIGHT NOW?

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson

That's ones a fabrication. The tip-off is that the word "inflation" wasn't applied to economic matters until the late nineteenth century at the earliest, and the word "deflation" wasn't used that way until the early twentieth.

I've checked this with several places, including the Jefferson archives, and it appears in none of Jefferson's works or letters.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli, it's extremely hard for me to believe that you believe in anarchy. I hope you are just playing the devil's advocate in this discussion.

The trouble here is that you're considering any system that doesn't turn the populace into sheeple to be anarchy.

The Occupy movement is not anarchy, it's self-governance.

 

[Kulindahr]

We live in a country with an ultimate law written by lawbreakers, who told us to watch the laws like a frikkin' hawk lest they be used to oppress us by people telling us to shut the fuck up and respect the law.


"...If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so..."
- Thomas Jefferson

You make no sense.

Authoritarians never see the sense of liberty.

That's one of the best things Jefferson ever said -- and you don't understand it? It's actually simple: if a law is unjust, by obeying it you are guilty of injustice.

This is why juries were supposed to be able to negate laws -- it was part of checks and balances, so we wouldn't have to get to this point.

 

[Kulindahr]

Have you ever heard of Rosa Parks?

And Henry David Thoreau, for that matter.

Or some freak elements named Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and some of their friends -- you know, the ones who committed felonies to achieve freedom.

 

[JayHawk]

Where did this come from? You start going well, then you come up with trash lies like this.

Open your eyes re-read the thread and then you MIGHT get it. And no everything spewing forth from the support occupy side of the house IS NOT the truth just because you happen to agree with the protest.

Europe is watching oakland on the bbc and I think its evening time. Our streets are full of kids throwing rocks and police teargassing them.

Weird....didnt ya'll argue for like five pages of this thread that rocks weren't thrown and it was a lie and we just hate the protesters?

You people are blinded by your support.

The polling data you posted above.... yeah I added to the "Supports the ideas of the OWS"

I still have no idea how they hope to effect change.

I suppose we could shut down the whole countries banking and commerce. That would be some change.

SO Democrats are saying "we feel ya... now just stay calm and vote for us". Some trying to address groups but when that became a laughing piece for the news you will notice the Politician outreach slowed down a bit. I truly wonder what the donkeys next move is to secure the momentum of this movement.

Republicans are saying that they are shitting upon themselves and they are bunch of misfit rabble from old sixties radicals to new itinerant young men and women. Oh and then they add our Tea Party is effecting change and has rallies but is very respectable and civilized.

Americans are saying as I have been that the ideas are wonderful and then the other half is saying "I have no idea what your about and how your getting there"

You folks ALWAYS cry into your mittens when I ask this BUT

WHATS NEXT?

JUST Protest protest protest? Yay. Next.

I can not think of a movement that protested with no specific goal. I know they have set out a few things that are needed in this country. But without a real plan then next election cycle you will get "throw the bums out" again. But no real Change.....

I also see many of you railing against our Federal government keeping these many banks and countries afloat worldwide. I have yet to see what any of you would have done. Is the situation created obscenely shitty? You bet. But out of spite do you throw yourself on the floor, kick and scream?

Do any of you think allowing for complete collapse would be fruitful?

All I am seeing is the same angry bitter comments that preceded the Obama election and that was hardly what people made it out to be. It was better than if a republican were sitting the seat but not good by any means.

 

[Kulindahr]

Open your eyes re-read the thread and then you MIGHT get it. And no everything spewing forth from the support occupy side of the house IS NOT the truth just because you happen to agree with the protest.

Re-read the thread. You're still lying -- no one defended rape.

You folks ALWAYS cry into your mittens when I ask this BUT

WHATS NEXT?

JUST Protest protest protest? Yay. Next.

I can not think of a movement that protested with no specific goal. I know they have set out a few things that are needed in this country. But without a real plan then next election cycle you will get "throw the bums out" again. But no real Change.....

I also see many of you railing against our Federal government keeping these many banks and countries afloat worldwide. I have yet to see what any of you would have done. Is the situation created obscenely shitty? You bet. But out of spite do you throw yourself on the floor, kick and scream?

Do any of you think allowing for complete collapse would be fruitful?

All I am seeing is the same angry bitter comments that preceded the Obama election and that was hardly what people made it out to be. It was better than if a republican were sitting the seat but not good by any means.

You are so good at misrepresentation and false dichotomies it's tragic.

"Complete collapse" is not the alternative to the groveling bail-out that was done.

 

[JayHawk]

Re-read the thread. You're still lying -- no one defended rape.



You are so good at misrepresentation and false dichotomies it's tragic.

"Complete collapse" is not the alternative to the groveling bail-out that was done.

No sunshine you are lying. I asked nicely for you to point out my spiteful hateful comments and you declined to do so because you can not find them anywhere but in your head.

And while it makes you feel wonderful to say "lier lier pants on fire" the bottom line is for five pages the OWS supporting side of the house did everything to disabuse the rest of us of the idea that rape occurred whereas normally it is the opposite. Normally right wingers argue that you should wait for the facts before throwing out blame. OWS supporters were so desperate for OWS to be this clean "knight in shining, american, democracy armor" that they argued against the facts for pages that rape had legitimately occurred. But that is water under the bridge truly. Why? the bridge is on fire.

So in the Occupy thread where everyone is king at jumping up for their side and after an entire day of chaos in California... (after I praised them for pulling off a non violent demonstration of their right to protest.) SO here it is the chaos in Oakland isn't even mentioned. For pages and pages OWS supporters defended the idea that RAPE DID NOT OCCUR... (does that meet with your semantics sunshine?) and now there is crickets for the burn 'em up campaign taken on by a FEW at the OWS strike.

Now to their credit many in the OWS camp are making signs that say "We are better than this" Proving once again that good people with good intentions are in the OWS camps. But that isn't all that is in the OWS camp.

Now OWS states that the group is a small fringe group that threw bottles (glass type not the plastic ones as claimed earlier in this thread) and huge rocks. Take a look at the rocks in this video and I will challenge anyone once again to man up in some riot gear, arm themselves with a bean bag gun because I hate tazers (they hurt) and I will wager I can get you to fire on me the demonstrators within three rocks.



Dont worry I do get that this is NOT every OWS person. BUT if they want to police themselves and run thing via this GA method of happy fingers then they need to figure out how to step up their game. Can you imagine a entire country run in this manner? Where the majority just say "Man you can't expect us to control everybody in our group"

Man so sad... and to think i was just getting ready to turn the corner and believe some of the crap being posted here in defense of these folks.

 

[BostonPirate]

you were going to believe in them? yeah right.

More like sign up again and form a strike team to take them down...lol

You need to lighten up.

If our leaders want to stop the angry masses from assembling and expressing their speech, they have to get out of denial and figure out a way to Fix what they are pissed off about.

Three consistent messages....

• Corporations are not people.
  
• Tax the wealthy before takind anymore from the poor.
  
• Figure out how to do it yourselves. Thats what we fucking PAY YOU FOR

No one in any party is safe from their rath.

Civil disobedience of this sort rarely happens in this nation... perhaps once every two decades. When it does it ALWAYS brings vast change that the populists demand.

Civil rights
vietnam
police brutality
Red sox losing for 86 years
and now
Class warfare on the poor and corporate personhood

The nation altered its path in all those prior incidences in Extensive ways... The Civil rights act, and the dixiecrat migration into the GOP
the end of the Vietnam war
independent commisions and better oversight of law enforecement, especially racial profiling

and how will we resolve it this time?

By letting the corporations win? or by giving the american dream back to our grandchildren, by starting to rebuild the middle class? Can america let the individual human being have as much power as the paper entity called a corporation?

its a no brainer, and jayhawk?

You are on the wrong side of history

 

[Kulindahr]

No sunshine you are lying. I asked nicely for you to point out my spiteful hateful comments and you declined to do so because you can not find them anywhere but in your head.

I didn't respond to that because the request was inane -- your derogatory posts are the majority of what you've made here... and in this one you do it again. Distortion, distortion, distortion, and refusing to be rational has been your theme, and it continues below.

And while it makes you feel wonderful to say "lier lier pants on fire" the bottom line is for five pages the OWS supporting side of the house did everything to disabuse the rest of us of the idea that rape occurred whereas normally it is the opposite. Normally right wingers argue that you should wait for the facts before throwing out blame. OWS supporters were so desperate for OWS to be this clean "knight in shining, american, democracy armor" that they argued against the facts for pages that rape had legitimately occurred. But that is water under the bridge truly. Why? the bridge is on fire.

Normally right-wingers are happy to convict three innocent people as long as they get one guilty one. There's nothing different ion this thread or the others about OWS -- condemn and disparage is the theme.

So in the Occupy thread where everyone is king at jumping up for their side and after an entire day of chaos in California... (after I praised them for pulling off a non violent demonstration of their right to protest.) SO here it is the chaos in Oakland isn't even mentioned. For pages and pages OWS supporters defended the idea that RAPE DID NOT OCCUR... (does that meet with your semantics sunshine?) and now there is crickets for the burn 'em up campaign taken on by a FEW at the OWS strike.

No, people have objected to your slandering the entire movement as being rapists or pro-rape, along with upholding the principle of innocent until proven guilty.

Now to their credit many in the OWS camp are making signs that say "We are better than this" Proving once again that good people with good intentions are in the OWS camps. But that isn't all that is in the OWS camp.

No -- as the police have said, the Occupy people have been infiltrated by anarchists, the same people who have run around to the WTO and such meetings to burn and whine and scream.

Now OWS states that the group is a small fringe group that threw bottles (glass type not the plastic ones as claimed earlier in this thread) and huge rocks. Take a look at the rocks in this video and I will challenge anyone once again to man up in some riot gear, arm themselves with a bean bag gun because I hate tazers (they hurt) and I will wager I can get you to fire on me the demonstrators within three rocks.

I didn't see any bottles being thrown. I've seen enough police misbehavior, including framing people, over the years to not believe anything from a police officer unless corroborated by a known trustworthy citizen or two who were witnesses.

As for riot gear, on the local station they had a guy who trains people in the use of riot gear, and he flat out said that with what the protesters were doing, anyone competent could have stood there are day ignoring it, and anyone properly trained would have.
I've stood and taken it when I was punched in the gut and kicked in the balls. I doubt a few rocks and bottles, me in full protective gear, would seem more than a nuisance.

Though if they had some professional baseball pitchers... that would make a difference.

 

[Jack Springer]

Since many of you look to Thomas Jefferson as a sort of "god" for quotes in this thread -- here's a couple I found.

Jefferson Against the Democratic Party Welfare State -- The Big Society
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Against Big Government Promoted by the Democrat Party
“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Against Public Disobedience by Groups Like Occupy
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. ”
― Thomas Jefferson

Against Getting All Your News From One Source
“The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Belief that War is Necessary at Sometimes
“Occasionally the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants.”
― Thomas Jefferson

My point is this -- Jefferson wrote a lot, he lived a very good life where he was able to put his thoughts down on paper - who knows if his many quotes were actually believed by him or if he was making a point at a particular time in his life. I'm not a Jefferson scholar or read much of him.

Citing a couple lines of his like Gospel does not prove your point. His thought process and beliefs changed throughout his life -- just like yours have.

 

[BostonPirate]

“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
― Thomas Jefferson


“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases.”
― Thomas Jefferson.

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

- Thomas Jefferson

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations - if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people - which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength - by - Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. -

those three combined?

taxes of the middle class go to pay for wars that the corporations profit off of, and as all the american blood spilled, the cash just rolled on into the pockets of the wealthy and out of the coffers of the gov't and the people.

The corporations ARE the gov't now, and we are held hostage by their minions in the GOP.

Program after program for the welfare of the great society are thrown on the cutting floor as the rich get richer, and keep every gov't handout. Corporations take in billions and get sent IRS checks as their Bought representatives fight for their status as kings of the New American Empire.

Its over.

People are not going to stop until something is done, and that wont happen until after the election.

This country is effectively without a functional representative body, a congress, and the president of the USA is running the nation on Executive orders.

Enough is enough.

 

[Kulindahr]

Against Public Disobedience by Groups Like Occupy
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. ”
― Thomas Jefferson


Belief that War is Necessary at Sometimes
“Occasionally the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants.”
― Thomas Jefferson

You've got these backwards -- both of them are effect endorsements of the Occupy movement -- and you support the tyranny. The Occupiers are the people of good conscience, not remaining silent. And they would arm, they'd be the patriots watering the tree of liberty, because that statement isn't about war, but revolution.

 

[fetaby]

Since many of you look to Thomas Jefferson as a sort of "god" for quotes in this thread -- here's a couple I found.

Jefferson Against the Democratic Party Welfare State -- The Big Society
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”
― Thomas Jefferson

So is it the taking care of those who can't take care of themselves that's wasteful, or the elimination of costly excess bureaucracy in the process? Because welfare is not a pretense. The people on it are being taken care of. That is not a waste.

Against Big Government Promoted by the Democrat Party
“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”
― Thomas Jefferson



It stands to reason that if the government is giving you what you need, it can be assumed that is because you don't have the means to get what you need on your own. The government can't take what you don't have. The second quote... It's not the government that is good or bad it's the governance it provides that is good or bad and that is derived from the quality of the participants not the quantity.

Against Public Disobedience by Groups Like Occupy
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. ”
― Thomas Jefferson

I'm not understanding your thought process here. So you're wanting tyranny to gain a foothold?

Against Getting All Your News From One Source
“The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Ummm, he's actually saying that any news source will leave you dumber.

Belief that War is Necessary at Sometimes
“Occasionally the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants.”
― Thomas Jefferson

And when the tyrants are Americans?

My point is this -- Jefferson wrote a lot, he lived a very good life where he was able to put his thoughts down on paper - who knows if his many quotes were actually believed by him or if he was making a point at a particular time in his life. I'm not a Jefferson scholar or read much of him.

Citing a couple lines of his like Gospel does not prove your point. His thought process and beliefs changed throughout his life -- just like yours have.

You keep injecting religious connotations into your posts. Gods, goddesses, gospel, etc...
Most religious crap deals with why you should do X to ensure your afterlife.

These protests are about the betterment of your physical life, well 99% of the lives. For 1% life can't get any better. Cue the communist rants...

But this protest isn't about their money. It is about how they have created a system that entraps everyone but themselves into series of debts.

If the protestors were out on the streets because they can't afford video games, I'd understand the hesitance to agree with them. But they're not. They're protesting that nearly our entire economy is controlled and owned by people who have absolutely no other plan than to squeeze out every last dime the population of this country possesses, every last resource our planet could offer. And once they're done they'll move on to any place that does have some wealth that doesn't belong to them.

And for what? What is the purpose behind any of that?

If money can't buy a person happiness then why is it the only thing that people want? At what point does any one person have enough? IF you have enough money to buy anything that you could possibly want for the rest of your life, why do you need another dollar on top of that?

You want to talk about anarchy? Anarchy is having the money to do whatever the fuck you want, and preserving that system so that no one else can.

The human race is in trouble. And this protest and the system being protested are nothing but a prelude to the shit that's about to hit the fan.

Earlier I believe JayHawk asked who wants to see the complete economic downfall of the world? That would be me. And for one reason only, that it's going to happen anyway.

Exponential growth is not possible using finite resources. If at any point the economy stops growing we've hit recession, regardless of the reason. The one we're in now? Even though it's completely man-made, it serves as a reminder. That there is no easy solution to the problems the human race faces. Resource depletion meeting overpopulation.

At least we'll be entertained.

 

[TX-Beau]

Against Getting All Your News From One Source
“The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Yeah it's quite obvious you don't know much about Jefferson. I believe the above quote was said in context of a media culture wherein there were many newspapers aligned behind partisan politics outrageously and continually slandering one another.

It's certainly has nothing to do with the number of sources you read.

So you basically went looking for a bunch of quotes you thought you could twist to contradict the quotes others used in support of civil liberties.

We needn't restrict ourselves to Jefferson. Almost all of our sainted Founding Fathers would have been on the side of OWS.

I suspect you're in that part of society that likes to think of those guys as kind of stodgy, grandfatherly, Establishment type figures, but Jack - these men led an ARMED insurrection against their own government over a matter of PRINCIPLE.

That's pretty much the ultimate in violent civil disobedience - and you want to somehow imply that they were against that sort of thing? I suspect they'd be pushing the OWS to be MORE provocative not less - such is the nature of revolutionaries ready to commit treason for liberty.

You certainly come across as this grim sort of person. WHY ARE THERE PEOPLE IN THE STREETS!

Your post is entirely beside the point.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Anyone who was a TeaBagger supporter, who is now a OWS hater is the ultimate hypocrite. (Bill O' I'm looking at you and your entire wingnut faction)

 

[TX-Beau]

There are so many ultimate hypocrisies on the right these days what's one more?

 

[MoltenRock III]

I just donated to the Occupy Wall Streeters.

For anyone interested in donating whatever they can see: http://occupywallst.org/donate/