Occupy Wall Street

[Kulindahr]

Did someone suggest you should? BTW, the social media are corporate owned as well. Is it now a pick and choose type situation where this corp. is "good" and that corp. is "bad"?

There's a difference worth noting: the corporate media are all about providing content, while the social media only provide an avenue for content.

The kind of corporation I'm especially picking and choosing against is the kind that enjoys undue influence on the political sphere through monopolistic size, economic privelege and absurd protections of personal free speech.

Free speech doesn't have to be personal to be constitutionally protected -- or so says SCOTUS in Citizens United. I think it was the majority opinion which noted that the first amendment does not specify who gets free speech, and therefore an entity doesn't have to be a person to have free speech.

That's plainly a total perversion of what the Framers intended, but what else is new?

And it set things up so the only way to reign in corporate "speech" is to change the Constitution.

Is OWS about ending mass consumption? I don't know. Put on a conehead and get to a GA and ask.

A "conehead" ? ? ?

 

[fetaby]

The conehead reference was to the consumption habits of the Saturday Night Live characters.

But anyway, I'm beginning to get a feel for the "you're either with us or against us" Jayhawk was talking about. What I posted is...

In this sound bite age, visibility is offered up to the people who control the media. What the majority of the world sees is seen through a filter of corporate owned media bias.

That's not a plea for pandering, just a statement of fact.

That the immediate conclusion is to bow before the corporate gods in exchange for the services they could provide shows the serious lack of creativity this movement needs to live till the big elections next year.

But Zoltan, you never answered my question so I'll post it again.

If you pull away from the "bad" corp. and invest into the "good" corp., how long is it going to take before the greed sets in and the two become indistinguishable from one another?

Because that's the measure of success in capitalism, IMO. And the only way to pull away from that is to stop being consumers and once again become citizens.

And if you think that a corporation is infallible there is no point in continuing this.

 

[Kulindahr]

And if you think that a corporation is infallible there is no point in continuing this.

Well, the Roman Catholic Church is a corporation...

 

[zoltanspawn]

That's not a plea for pandering, just a statement of fact.

Juxtaposed against the statement about missed opportunities and vulnerability to criticisms of ridicule, my assumption that OWS ought to pander to traditional media was a remark of counsel and not description still makes sense to me. However, I stand corrected. If you could specify what you intended instead about the missed opportunities and how OWS should switch up their thinking, it would clarify your position even further.

As per your question, I did in fact try to answer it. You may not have been satisfied with the answer, or I may not have completely understood what you're asking. So I'll try again, and maybe we can civilly talk. I don't think of corporations as either simply good or bad. But rather, as best-better-good-bad-worse-worst. If I read you correctly, you are much, much more of an anti-capitalist than I am, or even than OWS is; I'm not resigned to the fact that unbridled greed is the inevitable result of a society with corporations and consumers in it. Rather, I believe that a capitalist society with proper regulations is just fine.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Free speech doesn't have to be personal to be constitutionally protected -- or so says SCOTUS in Citizens United. I think it was the majority opinion which noted that the first amendment does not specify who gets free speech, and therefore an entity doesn't have to be a person to have free speech.

That's plainly a total perversion of what the Framers intended, but what else is new?

Yeah, I need to go re-read CUvFEC again. I was thinking the ruling basically said that persons didn't have to be flesh and blood individuals to enjoy free speech, not that entities didn't have to be persons.

 

[fetaby]

Juxtaposed against the statement about missed opportunities and vulnerability to criticisms of ridicule, my assumption that OWS ought to pander to traditional media was a remark of counsel and not description still makes sense to me. However, I stand corrected. If you could specify what you intended instead about the missed opportunities and how OWS should switch up their thinking, it would clarify your position even further.

As per your question, I did in fact try to answer it. You may not have been satisfied with the answer, or I may not have completely understood what you're asking. So I'll try again, and maybe we can civilly talk. I don't think of corporations as either simply good or bad. But rather, as best-better-good-bad-worse-worst. If I read you correctly, you are much, much more of an anti-capitalist than I am, or even than OWS is; I'm not resigned to the fact that unbridled greed is the inevitable result of a society with corporations and consumers in it. Rather, I believe that a capitalist society with proper regulations is just fine.

The criticism of ridicule is an obstacle to the stated goal of awareness. My thinking is the OWS protestors and the 99% aren't quite on the same page yet. The more I think about it the more I see just how much work is left to be accomplished. I believe the dissemination of information is the most powerful tool OWS could possess. The difference between a protestor and a supporter is understanding how that individual is affected by the decisions made by the 1%. But in order for those supporters to act on that information you first have to overcome their complacency. Which brings us to another criticism...

Poverty and the perception of poverty...

The perception of poverty is the mental image that comes to mind when one mentions the word. Each person is going to have a different image depending on circumstance, but the prevailing image of abject poverty is particularly strong. We've seen it for for a few decades now, the starving children with flies walking across their eyes. They are to malnourished to even spare the energy to blink them away...

So when you have Americans who think that is what being poor is when they look back onto their own lives and feel guilt for having a refrigerator or air conditioning. They don't think they are in poverty. Their needs are being met. But about the only difference between the two is a few paychecks. These people can't afford to protest except in spirit. OR can they? I saw a video posted a few weeks ago talking about sending back CC applications to the companies. The postage paid envelope is only valid if it actually gets sent back. Imagine if every person sent those envelopes back? It's clever, requires little time and no money.

Anyway, back to pandering. It's my opinion that after several centuries of capitalism that the way to progress is by applying commercial principles to the message of OWS. We are conditioned to respond to advertising. If OWS wants to make change they have to sell it. Occupying isn't enough. They have to turn away from the fortified towers of the 1% and start seeking alliance and allegiance with the people they proclaim to represent. There is pandering to be done.
---------

But as for the question you answered. My belief is that the greed is a human development brought into any venture, commercial or otherwise. That any organization is only as good as the people involved in it. And that ethical behavior is the only way to prosper. And since we can't force people to behave in an ethical and responsible manner regulations are the way to go. But to hear any 1%er tell it, regulations strangle.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Fetaby, your take on things frequently resembles mine. Forgive my egoism for saying I think you're smart and compassionate. Sometimes it seems that you succumb to cynicism though, as I know I'm prone to doing too. And while hopelessness may be an accurate reflection of our situation I don't admire its effect on people. I think we should keep on trying to the bitter end--if for no reason than it affirms the good parts of our nature. We ought never abandon them.

There's TONS of work left to be accomplished. We haven't even hit the 90 day mark. I can never get over the impatience people are lobbing at our young movement! Rome wasn't built in a day, sonny. OWS needs intelligent people to join up and steer the conversation. Believe me, I've been to enough GAs now to know how important critical voices are needed.

 

[Kulindahr]

Fetaby, your take on things frequently resembles mine. Forgive my egoism for saying I think you're smart and compassionate. Sometimes it seems that you succumb to cynicism though, as I know I'm prone to doing too. And while hopelessness may be an accurate reflection of our situation I don't admire its effect on people. I think we should keep on trying to the bitter end--if for no reason than it affirms the good parts of our nature. We ought never abandon them.

There's TONS of work left to be accomplished. We haven't even hit the 90 day mark. I can never get over the impatience people are lobbing at our young movement! Rome wasn't built in a day, sonny. OWS needs intelligent people to join up and steer the conversation. Believe me, I've been to enough GAs now to know how important critical voices are needed.

I just watched a clip sent in email, about the protests in the 60s that never blossomed until the 70s. The big point was that if those few in the beginning hadn't plugged on, the thousands and eventually millions in the 70s would never have mobilized.

It reminded me of a thought I had a while back, that the Occupy/99% deal is a movement in search of a spark. It could be a person, a song, a slogan, an image... something that will raise the activity level by an order or two of magnitude. It could come next week, it could come next year -- but the more bright people are out there, the more likely it is to come at any time.

 

[fetaby]

It could be a person, a song, a slogan, an image... something that will raise the activity level by an order or two of magnitude.

More than likely it will be a martyr or several. How many grandmas getting maced is it gonna take?

 

[Jack Springer]

I think the LiceFest is over since they can't sleep over anymore.

People are sick of the mess, inconvenience, rapes, drugs, and violence.

 

[chance1]

NY1 interviewed local businesses who were scared to death about their declining revenues .............

hopefully these taxpaying 99%'ers can get their lives back

which have been ironically made worse by the protestors

 

[jackoroe]

More than likely it will be a martyr or several. How many grandmas getting maced is it gonna take?

The OWS crowd designates people as "arrestables". People who deliberately provoke the police to arrest them. They are frequently sympathetic figures who make a good appearance on camera and can mouth the necessary talking points.

At some point, they'll find somebody dumb enough to do something sufficiently violent, to get themselves killed. There is no shortage of useful idiots in the OWS ranks.

However, inconveniencing ordinary people trying to get into and home from work is going to do far more harm to OWS.

They've jumped the shark and public opinion is rapidly turning against them.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...pinion-turning-against-occupy-wall-street.php

I would point out that PPP is a democrat polling outfit. That means the truth is likely even worse.

 

[fetaby]

I think the LiceFest is over since they can't sleep over anymore.

People are sick of the mess, inconvenience, rapes, drugs, and violence.

So I guess you aren't going to the annual Christmas party...

NY1 interviewed local businesses who were scared to death about their declining revenues .............

hopefully these taxpaying 99%'ers can get their lives back

which have been ironically made worse by the protestors

Scared to death? If two months of lower sales have these people fearing for their lives, what does that say about the stability of their businesses? They're apparently one winter away from bankruptcy.

Now, please contrast the hand full of business owners here versus the MILLIONS of American citizens who are in permanent revenue decline because 1% have shipped the jobs over to another continent. Or the MILLIONS of women who have always been in a position of revenue decline because they were born a woman. Or the MILLIONS of students who don't even qualify as revenue declining because they start their financial lives underwater.

The OWS crowd designates people as "arrestables". People who deliberately provoke the police to arrest them. They are frequently sympathetic figures who make a good appearance on camera and can mouth the necessary talking points.

At some point, they'll find somebody dumb enough to do something sufficiently violent, to get themselves killed. There is no shortage of useful idiots in the OWS ranks.

However, inconveniencing ordinary people trying to get into and home from work is going to do far more harm to OWS.

They've jumped the shark and public opinion is rapidly turning against them.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...pinion-turning-against-occupy-wall-street.php

I would point out that PPP is a democrat polling outfit. That means the truth is likely even worse.

There's no shortage of useful idiots period.

 

[Kulindahr]

More than likely it will be a martyr or several. How many grandmas getting maced is it gonna take?

The OWS crowd designates people as "arrestables". People who deliberately provoke the police to arrest them. They are frequently sympathetic figures who make a good appearance on camera and can mouth the necessary talking points.

At some point, they'll find somebody dumb enough to do something sufficiently violent, to get themselves killed. There is no shortage of useful idiots in the OWS ranks.

However, inconveniencing ordinary people trying to get into and home from work is going to do far more harm to OWS.

They've jumped the shark and public opinion is rapidly turning against them.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...pinion-turning-against-occupy-wall-street.php

I would point out that PPP is a democrat polling outfit. That means the truth is likely even worse.

This is such bullshit, the kind of bilge that comes only from conservatives.

You're saying that an 85-y.o. retired teacher "provoked" the cops? Try watching the videos and reading the reports -- there wasn't any provocation. You think a NY city councilman provoked the cops? You think a Marine provoked the cops? Obviously the gals who were just sitting on a sidewalk "provoked" a white-shirt to drive up, jump out of his car, spray them, and drive away, right?

And I'll note from that article that what the public is souring on isn't OWS -- they're souring on the image OWS is being given by the media.

 

[palemale]

This is such bullshit, the kind of bilge that comes only from conservatives.

You're saying that an 85-y.o. retired teacher "provoked" the cops? Try watching the videos and reading the reports -- there wasn't any provocation. You think a NY city councilman provoked the cops? You think a Marine provoked the cops? Obviously the gals who were just sitting on a sidewalk "provoked" a white-shirt to drive up, jump out of his car, spray them, and drive away, right?

And I'll note from that article that what the public is souring on isn't OWS -- they're souring on the image OWS is being given by the media.

The NYPD has been beating and arresting journalists. They even beat a reporter and videographer from the right wing blog, Daily Caller. I suppose Tucker Carlson, founder of the Daily Caller, is in cahoots with OWS, too.

This how "The Daily Caller" reported NYPD conduct:

While covering Occupy Wall Street’s “Day of Action” Thursday morning, Daily Caller reporter Michelle Fields and videographer Direna Cousins were struck by NYPD officers as police tried to clear Wall Street of protesters.

“The police officers were beating the protesters with batons, and were also beating the media,” Fields told TheDC.

. . . When I fell to the ground I said at one point, ‘I’m just covering this! I’m covering this!’ And the officer just said, ‘Come on, get up, get up,’ before pulling me up by my jacket.’”

“The protesters came up to me right away and asked if I needed any medical assistance. They were actually very kind and helpful. It was the police officers who were very aggressive,” Fields added.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/17/d...her-assaulted-by-nypd-during-occupy-protests/

 

[palemale]

By the way, just came through Union Square and it is loaded with protesters!! Police sirens and helicopters everywhere.

 

[jackoroe]

This is such bullshit, the kind of bilge that comes only from conservatives.

You're saying that an 85-y.o. retired teacher "provoked" the cops? Try watching the videos and reading the reports -- there wasn't any provocation. You think a NY city councilman provoked the cops? You think a Marine provoked the cops? Obviously the gals who were just sitting on a sidewalk "provoked" a white-shirt to drive up, jump out of his car, spray them, and drive away, right?

And I'll note from that article that what the public is souring on isn't OWS -- they're souring on the image OWS is being given by the media.

Listen, if Granny a priest and a pregnant woman want to roll with these folks, then they shouldn't be surprised when they get treated the same way as the rest.

She was in a group lawfully ordered to disperse. They didn't. They got sprayed.

"Pepper spray was deployed only against subjects who were either refusing a lawful order to disperse or engaging in assaultive behavior toward officers," said Seattle police spokesman Jeff Kappel.

The following is a quote from Dorli Rainey, who is the granny in question after her failed attempt to become mayor in 2009. Maybe she should have taken her own advice.

"I am old and should learn to be old, stay home, watch TV and sit still."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/dorli-rainey-pepper-spray-occupy-seattle_n_1097836.html

 

[jackoroe]

Here's another OWS moron asking for a moment of silence for the psycho who shot up the White House. And the other idiots in the group go along with him!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrNbAe7dOGA&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

 

[Jack Springer]

^^^

Unbelievable.

It appears that the route that is being taken is more violent.

You don't shoot at the White House or the President -- that is not allowed.

Well at least we know that some of their brains are completely unoccupied.

 

[jackoroe]

^^^

Unbelievable.

It appears that the route that is being taken is more violent.

You don't shoot at the White House or the President -- that is not allowed.

Well at least we know that some of their brains are completely unoccupied.

The President and his wife weren't in the White House at the time. But his children and his mother in law were. Not to mention the folks just doing their jobs working there.

It was a reprehensible act that deserves condemnation by decent people. Not something that merits honoring through a moment of silence.