Offended By Confederate Flag

[BabiGayPimp]

While I do have issues with some parts of Kulindahr's post, there are two points that I'd like to defend.

First, I don't see where he said that the war wasn't about slavery
As for whether or not slavery would have ended without a war... Most of the Western world had already abolished slavery by 1860, with no bloodshed and little outcry. The US tends to be a bit behind the times when it comes to human and civil rights, but I do think that slavery could have ended without a war. It's just a question of how quickly it would have happened.

What are you blind? He says right in his post that the civil war "wasn't about slavery," which is why I suggested he take his ignorant ass back to school. And you can go back there with him, and learn our history.

It's irrelevant when and how slavery ended in other parts of the world and in other times. The FACT is that slavery ended in the United States of America as a result of the Union Victory over the stinking southern conderacy via the Civil War. And that's what we're talking about. Duh... It is pure conjecture as to how U.S. slavery might have ended otherwise. Please stop offending people of african heritage and persons good conscience and character by defending a great evil (slavery) perpetrated by horrible people (confederates). Please stop insulting my ancestors who were victims of genocide.

You should both be ashamed! Ashamed! You are no better than the Nazi apologists who claim the holocaust never happened, or could been stopped without military action. Sheesh! God bless America. The America that I know and love. That the Union victory gave to the world.

 

[LilBit]

BGP, I NEVER defended slavery. I think it was one of the most vile institutions to ever exist. But you and Madonna are getting so emotional about the issue that you're unable to discuss the history of the Civil War without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

I'm Jewish. My people were victims of genocide as well. But I would never argue that WWII was solely about saving the Jews from the Nazis because I know that it's not true. Yes, it was a major factor in the war, but it was not the only cause. Likewise, slavery was a major factor in the outbreak fo the Civil War, but to deny the other factors, which have been well-documented since the founding of this country, is ridiculous and short-sighted.

And just so it's crystal clear:

Yes, slavery was one of the major causes of the Civil War. Yes slavery was evil.

But slavery was just one of many factors that led up to the dissolution of what had always been a very unstable union.

 

[TX-Beau]

Slavery was the Causus Belli, and we in the South do ourselves no favors by hiding it. "States Rights," was just a polite way of saying "no interference in the peculiar institution by northern politicians," and most of the "States Rights" issues were tied up in the arguments over the expansion of slavery into new territories. If you want to talk tariffs, well, slavery was the economy of the south and any talk of taxation and money is essentially talk about slavery.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

The south was heavily taxed over cotton and the south says that was wrong... but well duh how did they GET that fucking cotton... or who was busting their ass to get the product out on the market. It was the north punishing the south by raising high taxes. It all links to slavery one way or another.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, declaring all slaves free.

It should be noted that technically, this may not have been a legal action (a President is not given the authority under the Constitution to make law, nor to seize "property" without due process.)

Is that not a racist statement or WHAT?! He's against Lincoln declaring all slaves free and seizing property? Slaves never were property [Inappropriate text: Removed by Moderator]

 

[Yuki Sohma]

...Slaves never were property...

M, you are soooooooooooo soooooooooooo very very very absolutely right when you say that

...slaves were (are) never property...

.................I think that it is sadddddddddd that one human would ever ever ever enslave another human.................

.................I am going to sleep now.................take care all.................

.................peace.................Yuki

 

[techboywi]

Honey this is what Kind of people I argue with on this forum. I started this topic honestly thinking people would have common sense. If the gay community wants to be supported equally then they have alot to learn. He probably has something to object to THIS post... and to say I'm twisting it around to justify his corrupt racist morals. But you know its like talking to a brick wall. As minorities we all have been there and done that. Read this entire thread and you might be as horrified as "I" am. But people were raised like that.. the same way people read black print in the bible that says we are all from the devil. Its how people are brought up. People defending the confederacy really have some corrupt beliefs drilled into them. This is nothing against the south its against the right wing racist MANIACS

You hit the nail on the head with part of your post. The Civil War is taught differently here in the North than it is in the South. Depending on what sources you cite, it can be hard to tell which paints a accurate picture of what truly happened. My best friend grew up in the TN, he has a confederate flag hanging in his bedroom. He is NOT a racist person.

I am not going to take a position on this, obviously you feel very passionate about your beliefs, and Kulindahr feels passionate about his beliefs.

I take issue with some of the cartoons you posted earlier in the thread. Ask just about any southerner, and they will say how disgusting groups like the KKK are. While they are still active (sadly)..thought the ENTIRE country mind you, they are becoming less and less relevant in the US. Sadly now the KKK and the Confederate (or Rebel) flag are often considered synonymous with each other.. That is truley sad, and a insult to the decent people in the south who do not share those horrible beliefs a few narrow minded people still have.

If the flag bothers you so much, don't look at it. You are not too far from me, I can say I see very few rebel flags around Milwaukee

 

[bankside]

Kulindahr, you and I have gone a long way toward keeping discussions alive when we are on very opposite ends of the issue, and we've occasionally found common ground.

In this thread however, you have "jumped the shark" so to speak.

No one loves anyone that they are obliged to call "Master."

You need to get that into your head, and you owe an apology to anyone who has read that remark, and also to decency and reason themselves while you're at it.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

You hit the nail on the head with part of your post. The Civil War is taught differently here in the North than it is in the South. Depending on what sources you cite, it can be hard to tell which paints a accurate picture of what truly happened. My best friend grew up in the TN, he has a confederate flag hanging in his bedroom. He is NOT a racist person.

I am not going to take a position on this, obviously you feel very passionate about your beliefs, and Kulindahr feels passionate about his beliefs.

I take issue with some of the cartoons you posted earlier in the thread. Ask just about any southerner, and they will say how disgusting groups like the KKK are. While they are still active (sadly)..thought the ENTIRE country mind you, they are becoming less and less relevant in the US. Sadly now the KKK and the Confederate (or Rebel) flag are often considered synonymous with each other.. That is truley sad, and a insult to the decent people in the south who do not share those horrible beliefs a few narrow minded people still have.

If the flag bothers you so much, don't look at it. You are not too far from me, I can say I see very few rebel flags around Milwaukee

Exactly some have the flag and are not racist at all. Not all that are in procession of them are racist towards different people of color. It's because they were so misinformed.

Its a psychological aspect. If a child has abusive parents they deny it and have their own side to it... that there parents were good and they were just a bad kid.. and as they get older and move out.. they have a photo of their parents honoring them.

All Japanese people can agree that that the flag of Japan can agree its a symbol of heritage... all Nigerian people can agree that their flag is a symbol of heritage? SO WHY don't all southerners agree that the confederate flag is a heritage symbol? Many agree that its a symbol of hatred and racism. Those are the educated ones. The ones that feel its heritage ... its not their fault. It's how they were raised. They are taught about the civil war in a way that its SO sugar coated that the sugar could give 1000 kids a sugar rush. And they justify alot of the historical events to a point to where they feel the south was right. I mean if you lived in the south and you knew the REAL past wouldn't YOU deny it too? That's EMBARRASSING. Like the child with the abusive parents that keeps making excuses. "The confederacy was great lets put the flag on our car... in our lawn.. on our belts... what a GREAT thing it was!" -Sarcasm

 

[Sammie13]

Reading this, I now know how Bill Murray felt in Groundhog Day.

And people say southerners can't let go of the Civil War.

 

[MisterMajestic]

I'm a Native of Columbia,SC and the Confederate Flag is still flapping in the wind...I stopped carring about it back in 1999...An agreement was made concerning the Flag. The Head of the NAACP had a closed meeing with Legislators and BOTH parties agreed the flag would no longer fly on the roof of the state building. Both parties AGREED the Flag would be moved & placed in a monumental setting...

About a week later legislators snatched the Flag off the roof, cemented a 30-foot pole on the front lawn of the building and raised the Flag up higher than it was before...LOL...If that wasnt in your face then I don't know what the Fuck is...LOL..

I have no complaints about what happened because the NAACP SHOULD have been specific about WHERE the Flag would be placed...They should have said BURN the shit, but they did not suggest that during their "meeting of the Powers that Be"....So TOUGH...Now Legislators REFUSE to have anymore meetings with the NAACP and people still argue, cuss and Fight over that Damn flag...

I felt a long time ago that whether the Confederate Flag is flying in the wind or burned to a crisp people will still feel the way they feel about each other regardless. The Flag is the PERFECT vehicle & excuse to keep the Black/White Love/Hate history in South Carolina Alive and Publicized..

I'm glad that my Generation of 30-somethings look pass that shady-shit...

I also believe that the KKK have every right to march on the State grounds as long as their demonstration is "peaceful"...They march to this day and they are peaceful..You can't take away a groups rights just because you don't agree with their "message"...

South Carolina is 60% white and 40% Black..When it's all said & done both races have lived together for so long that we can't live without each other...Arguing over the Confederate flag is just our TWISTED way at finding a reason to be in each others face...

Both races need to have a Racial Orgy and get it out their systems already...

 

[Legend500]

Might as well jump in here since Kuli went over the shark, as it were...

Some basic points.

1. The American Civil War was mostly about slavery. It is true that there were ancillary interests as well, but slavery was a major one.

2. Slavery is bad, m'kay?

3. The United States continued to fully allow and support slavery in those states which chose to remain her allies during the War (Northern Missouri, Maryland, Delaware, and Kentucky).

4. The Confederate States emancipated their slaves late in the war as an act of desperation, not of humanity.

5. The Confederate States was directly responsible for 4 years of slavery in the modern United States. That is far less time than the United States' 89 years supporting slavery (1776-1865), and is even less than the Republic of Texas' 10 years - so if anything, the 22 states comprising the United States during the war or the 6 states which were once part of the Republic of Texas bear more responsibility for slavery than the 13 Confederate States possibly could.

6. As a result all of the United States bear historical responsibility for this grievous sin - and the Star Spangled Banner is just as racist and "evil" a flag as the Lone Star or the Southern Cross.

7. Slavery is history, and whilst we must remain mindful of that, it should not color our present relations.

8. Racism is everywhere, and everyone in racist. Sexism and Homophobia are just as bad as racism, too - no one has a monopoly on historical grievance.

9. The Battle Flag of the Confederacy is only as offensive as you want it to be - those who see it as a racist hate-filled flag are absolutely right, those who see it as a flawed but noble banner signifying defiance - are absolutely right.

Exactly some have the flag and are not racist at all. Not all that are in procession of them are racist towards different people of color. It's because they were so misinformed.

I'd disagree. Except for the extremists (and Black Liberation and Raza extremists show that this type of base racism is not a whites-only venture) many people know the history behind that flag, and choose to display it as a patriotic action, whether it's the Rebel flag with 4 years of blood on it, the Texan flag with 10, or the US flag with 89.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

I don't think the confederate flag should be banned though.. as I once said that it should be before. I changed my view because its the same with the Nazi's Swastika.. if you banned it then more people would start shit... its best to let the confederates and KKK fly the flag/symbol and let them jump up and down for attention like toddlers that can't get over the fact that whites are better then everyone else. Those people will eventually quiet down and do stuff so much less that we won't begin to notice it as much

 

[Sammie13]

Might as well jump in here since Kuli went over the shark, as it were...

Some basic points.

1. The American Civil War was mostly about slavery. It is true that there were ancillary interests as well, but slavery was a major one.

2. Slavery is bad, m'kay?

3. The United States continued to fully allow and support slavery in those states which chose to remain her allies during the War (Northern Missouri, Maryland, Delaware, and Kentucky).

4. The Confederate States emancipated their slaves late in the war as an act of desperation, not of humanity.

5. The Confederate States was directly responsible for 4 years of slavery in the modern United States. That is far less time than the United States' 89 years supporting slavery (1776-1865), and is even less than the Republic of Texas' 10 years - so if anything, the 22 states comprising the United States during the war or the 6 states which were once part of the Republic of Texas bear more responsibility for slavery than the 13 Confederate States possibly could.

6. As a result all of the United States bear historical responsibility for this grievous sin - and the Star Spangled Banner is just as racist and "evil" a flag as the Lone Star or the Southern Cross.

7. Slavery is history, and whilst we must remain mindful of that, it should not color our present relations.

8. Racism is everywhere, and everyone in racist. Sexism and Homophobia are just as bad as racism, too - no one has a monopoly on historical grievance.

9. The Battle Flag of the Confederacy is only as offensive as you want it to be - those who see it as a racist hate-filled flag are absolutely right, those who see it as a flawed but noble banner signifying defiance - are absolutely right.

Great post, Legend!!! I was once in favor of GA removing the confedrate symbol from our flag in the early '90's, but later saw so many flaws in the overzealous arguments of both sides, and decided all the resources that both sides drained to fight a silly flag was not worth it. Hence, by the end of the '90's I flip-flopped my stance and said, "let history and the confederate flag fly high". Of course, shortly after that, we went through several flag flaps and design changes and saw much needless political bloodshed over this issue. People need to put their energy into real problems.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

You guys should check out the Muslim bashing in another thread. You'll see that Kulindahr is only against absolutist statements and willing to look at "complexities" when it's issues like denying the brutality and racism of slavery, or the inherent racism associated with the confederate flag. When it comes to bashing Muslims or anything else that's right up his alley, he's more than willing to see things in the same "black and white" that he accuses Madonna of endorsing.

I wish people like this would just admit that they don't like Blacks and Muslims instead of sneaking their bigotry and white privilege into multiple threads. You guys should know, you're not that subtle and you never have been.

thanks! Its funny how people are so quick to call me racist but that could also be because I word things differently and have a hard time expressing what I mean. Maybe if more people saw things like this.. they'd respect me more and stop calling me ignorant. I debate with the TRUE ignorant people and more people will back THEM up. I can't win on this fucking forum.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

BGP, I NEVER defended slavery. I think it was one of the most vile institutions to ever exist. But you and Madonna are getting so emotional about the issue that you're unable to discuss the history of the Civil War without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

I'm Jewish. My people were victims of genocide as well. But I would never argue that WWII was solely about saving the Jews from the Nazis because I know that it's not true. Yes, it was a major factor in the war, but it was not the only cause. Likewise, slavery was a major factor in the outbreak fo the Civil War, but to deny the other factors, which have been well-documented since the founding of this country, is ridiculous and short-sighted.

And just so it's crystal clear:

Yes, slavery was one of the major causes of the Civil War. Yes slavery was evil.

But slavery was just one of many factors that led up to the dissolution of what had always been a very unstable union.

Lilbit, you are adding insult to injury by backpeddling on your statements. I really don't want to assume the burden of re-doing your history education, but I would refer you to an historical document called the "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." 1860. It clearly states the proximate cause of the American Civil War = the overriding issue of slavery. And then I would like you to apologize to the African American members of JUB for your offense, lack of thoroughness, and mis-representation of American history. Going foward, I would ask that, as you study history, please review the historical documents, rather than simply skimming the opinions of others. Because you got it wrong and you failed. Read the damn documents from that era. Shouting at me in caps does not bring anything factual to light.

 

[LilBit]

Please explain how I'm backpedaling. Please show where I defended slavery.

Nowhere in this thread have I denied that slavery played an important role in the precipitation of the Civil War. What I did say is that the tension between the North and the South had many roots.

I also did not say or imply, as you seem to think, that it was bad that the Civil War ended slavery. Kulindahr said that it was possible that slavery would have ended without war, and I agreed with him. There was no value judgment in that statement. You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it.

And just for the record, my M.A. research focused heavily on the history of laws regarding racial identity in the US and France from the late 18th century through the mid twentieth century. I have done plenty of research on race relations in the Americas. I'm hardly the ignoramus that you make me out to be. I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with the particular document that you've referenced. It falls somewhat outside of my area of research, and I have little time to read documents that don't relate to either my teaching or my research. If you could provide me a link to the document, I'd gladly look at it.

But I could do without the condescension.

 

[opinterph]

If you could provide me a link to the document, I'd gladly look at it.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

 

[LilBit]

Thank you, opinterph.

It looks to me like the first part of the document deals with the issues of states' rights in general, followed by a history of the laws governing such, then a specific discussion of slavery. However, in the first part, there are several references to commerce, and there is also a reference to the means by which representation in the federal government is to be determined. As I said, these are issues that date back to the founding of the nation.

The document names slavery as the IMMEDIATE cause for secession. But it also makes it clear, as I have argued, that the tension between the North and South is deep-rooted and that slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back.

That's entirely consistent with everything that I've been saying in this thread.

BGP, I think the problem is that we're looking at the issue from different perspectives. You seem to be looking at the issue from a moral and ethical standpoint. I'm not looking at the issue from that standpoint because, frankly, I don't find it particularly productive at this point in time. The Enlightenment is long over. With the exception of a few extremists, all Americans can agree that slavery was an appalling institution and that it violates the moral and ethical principles upon which this country was founded.

And so I'm approaching the issue from a more academic standpoint, particularly historical and legal. (My training is in literary criticism, but I work in comparative literature, and we have a tendency to mooch off of other disciplines, so I do have some background in race law, history of race relations, and the history of colonialism in both Africa and the Americas.)

It's also important to note that in academia, we have an inherent mistrust of simplistic answers to questions; if someone tells us that there is one particular cause for something, or one correct interpretation of something, our impulse is to look further to see if there are any nuances. The purpose of this is not to negate the original argument, but to augment it.

You seem to think that my argument that there were multiple causes for the tension between the North and the South negates the importance of slavery in the conflict. That is not at all the case. My purpose isn't to deny the role of slavery in the Civil War, but rather to place the debate within a larger context. The Civil War was the culmination of almost a century of hostility. During those eighty-five years, attitudes toawrds slavery, as well as laws regarding slavery, evolved dramatically, both in the North and in the South. The people of South Carolina didn't just get pissed off one day in 1860 and decide to secede. That decision was the result of a long process. And that is why, although the document is entitled "The Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union," it makes a point of detailing the history of states' rights and the perceived violations of those rights.

I hope this clarifies my position. If you're willing to continue this debate without personal attacks, I'm happy to do so. Otherwise, I wish you the best.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

It's amazing. People on this board have found so many ways to channel and disguise (though flimsily) their bigotry. Really, some of you guys deserve a medal. You've turned it into an art form!

I know right?