Offended By Confederate Flag

[bankside]

Come on Kuli, you're smart enough to make your own arguments without conjuring up some nebulous anecdotal evidence to make your point.

Oh, we've gone far beyond anecdote with Kulindahr in this thread. He's convinced by the testimony of slaves who "loved" their masters as to the merits of the southern separatists. I don't care if a slave said it to my face as I was freeing the person. No person can love a person who claims to own him; whatever emotion that enslaved person was feeling was misidentified.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh, we've gone far beyond anecdote with Kulindahr in this thread. He's convinced by the testimony of slaves who "loved" their masters as to the merits of the southern separatists. I don't care if a slave said it to my face as I was freeing the person. No person can love a person who claims to own him; whatever emotion that enslaved person was feeling was misidentified.

Omnipotent pronouncements from on high.... or from the side, rather.

You have the arrogance to claim that you know other people's emotions better than they do? I can just see you on the street, correcting people who say how they're feeling....

Then you make things up about what I've said -- just like TX did.

I haven't argued anything at all about "the southern separatists". All I've done is poke holes in those who claim that everyone should feel the way they do about things, and that no other positions are acceptable, and to rip at broad generalizations which allow no exceptions.

Some slaves hated their masters, some slaves just endured, some slaves loved their masters. Some slaves were slaves 24-7; some were slaves only in name. Some slaves had white owners, while others had black owners. And many blacks, for many reasons, fought for the South in that war.

 

[palemale]

So you don't buy something you made up yourself -- that's supposed to be impressive?

His ancestors were free blacks in the south, fighting for their homes, to protect them against the army that was burning and raping its way through the South. I call that something to be proud of.

Why is it that because the North won, Sherman is no longer an object of horror? Anyone who stood against that demon, for whatever reason, was a hero, and the descendants have perfect justification for being proud of the banner they fought under.

Are you suggesting that those who fought a war that freed slaves are worse than those who fought a war (and started a war) to protect their right to own slaves? I'm sorry, there was nothing heroic about the Southern cause in the civil war. They may have had soldiers who fought heroically, but so what. There were Germans who fought heroically in WWII to spread the Nazi cause. Are today's Neo-Nazi Germans justified for being proud of the banner their forebears fought under? Incidentally, many in this country who display the swastika also display the confederate flag. Both are emblems of white supremacy.

So, to answer your question, Sherman is not an object of horror because the North prevailed in a war it was justified in waging. Just as Generals Eisenhower, Patton and MacArthur are not objects of horror for waging war the way they waged it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Are you suggesting that those who fought a war that freed slaves are worse than those who fought a war (and started a war) to protect their right to own slaves? I'm sorry, there was nothing heroic about the Southern cause in the civil war. They may have had soldiers who fought heroically, but so what. There were Germans who fought heroically in WWII to spread the Nazi cause. Are today's Neo-Nazi Germans justified for being proud of the banner their forebears fought under? Incidentally, many in this country who display the swastika also display the confederate flag. Both are emblems of white supremacy.

So, to answer your question, Sherman is not an object of horror because the North prevailed in a war it was justified in waging. Just as Generals Eisenhower, Patton and MacArthur are not objects of horror for waging war the way they waged it.

So... if Hitler had won, we should all be praising the concentration camps?


Many southern whites didn't own slaves -- yet they fought... for their homes.
Many free southern blacks didn't own slaves -- yet fought, for their homes.

It's easy to sit here now and pontificate that the what the South fought for was slavery. The trouble with that is that it reduces history to impersonal themes. History, though, is made by people, and the people who fought for the South fought for many reasons; "protecting my right to slaves" was not a great one. Indeed, more than a few southerners abhorred slavery, yet fought under the banner so many here are so blithely condemning.

 

[TX-Beau]

^^^ The threat of the abolition of slavery was a central casus belli for the Civil War. The Confederate flag was raised in the defense of slave holding rights. There is just no way around it.

Kuli is so far into apologia he’ll never agree. It strikes me as not a little ironic that me – a southerner, is having this argument with Kuli, who’s not a southerner.

I’ve heard the cant he’s selling all my life, and it was then, and is now, nothing more than an attempt to minimize and justify away the central crime of the Old South. Sure most southerner’s didn’t own slaves, but you know what, they didn’t think that the slaves should be freed either. What he’s glossing over with his carefully blindered arguments is that there was never a huge public outcry in the south to free slaves. The Old South was an agrarian cash crop economy that relied on slave labor. Nor were there large or small slave holders who emancipated them in any kind of numbers.

As to:

…Some slavery wasn’t really bad like other slavery; some masters were so kind they just loved their slaves like family…

Right. That doesn’t even deserve comment really.

Why he thinks that the slavery of the Old South requires defense now is anyone’s guess. Aside from people who believe in some kind of “Gone With the Wind,” fantasy about the Old South, and those who are still racists, I can’t see why anyone would be trying to push the above ridiculousness.

 

[Kulindahr]

^^^ The threat of the abolition of slavery was a central casus belli for the Civil War. The Confederate flag was raised in the defense of slave holding rights. There is just no way around it.

And the power of engines for speed is a big advertising factor for many cars.

Does that make it the only reason people buy those cars?

And does it make it the defining meaning of those cars?

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli is so far into apologia he’ll never agree. It strikes me as not a little ironic that me – a southerner, is having this argument with Kuli, who’s not a southerner.

I’ve heard the cant he’s selling all my life, and it was then, and is now, nothing more than an attempt to minimize and justify away the central crime of the Old South. Sure most southerner’s didn’t own slaves, but you know what, they didn’t think that the slaves should be freed either. What he’s glossing over with his carefully blindered arguments is that there was never a huge public outcry in the south to free slaves. The Old South was an agrarian cash crop economy that relied on slave labor. Nor were there large or small slave holders who emancipated them in any kind of numbers.

As to:

…Some slavery wasn’t really bad like other slavery; some masters were so kind they just loved their slaves like family…

Right. That doesn’t even deserve comment really.

Why he thinks that the slavery of the Old South requires defense now is anyone’s guess. Aside from people who believe in some kind of “Gone With the Wind,” fantasy about the Old South, and those who are still racists, I can’t see why anyone would be trying to push the above ridiculousness.

Go back and read the thread: I have yet to minimize anything, or to justify anything. I haven't in any place defended slavery.

In fact I've stated what I am doing, but the blindness on the absolutist side of this is so thorough it's been ignored.

 

[TX-Beau]

Go back and read the thread: I have yet to minimize anything, or to justify anything. I haven't in any place defended slavery.

In fact I've stated what I am doing, but the blindness on the absolutist side of this is so thorough it's been ignored.

Bullshit Kuli here’s what you’re doing:

…Look here we’ve got some noble and brave soldiers in grey…

…And over here we’ve got a proud banner flying high…

… no, no, don’t look at those chains and whipping posts behind the curtain…

…Over here we have a black man proud of the confederacy…

…And Over here we’ve got a Massa so very kind he just loves his slaves like family..

…no, no, don’t look at the rape and the sale block behind the curtain…

The Stars and Bars deserve the reputation that’s been garnered. It stood for a cause that the Old South stood by, and behind, and went to war to protect. And since, it’s been used in every Klan rally and white supremacist group that came along.

Frankly, there are plenty of rednecks and racists who’ll put it on their pick up trucks but there are also a whole lot of Southerners who wouldn’t touch it if you paid them.

 

[AsianDream]

Most people? I don't think so. Most people probably don't give a flying fling, one way or the other.

Bedwetting liberals, on the one hand, and die-hard southerners, on the other hand, get really rabid on the topic.

I'd agree that Most people aren't worried by either the Confederate Flag or the swastika.

However they probably recognise both equally as symbols of evil.

I don't think the fact that these are symbols of evil justifies trying to ban them - after all - in both cases these represent an Evil that was firmly defeated.

 

[Kulindahr]

Bullshit Kuli here’s what you’re doing:

…Look here we’ve got some noble and brave soldiers in grey…

…And over here we’ve got a proud banner flying high…

… no, no, don’t look at those chains and whipping posts behind the curtain…

…Over here we have a black man proud of the confederacy…

…And Over here we’ve got a Massa so very kind he just loves his slaves like family..

…no, no, don’t look at the rape and the sale block behind the curtain…

The Stars and Bars deserve the reputation that’s been garnered. It stood for a cause that the Old South stood by, and behind, and went to war to protect. And since, it’s been used in every Klan rally and white supremacist group that came along.

Frankly, there are plenty of rednecks and racists who’ll put it on their pick up trucks but there are also a whole lot of Southerners who wouldn’t touch it if you paid them.

Those are nice pieces of fantasy, but they're not what I've been doing at all. I doubt at this point that you've paid more than superficial attention.

What I've been doing is poking holes in an intolerant, close-minded absolutist position that says that the only thing the Confederate battle flag meant to those who marched under it was that blacks had to be kept as slaves, that the whole point of the Confederacy was to make sure that blacks could be beaten, raped, traded, even shot at whim, and that all blacks there were cowering, beaten animals barely reaching any level of humanity.

That's just bullshit, and it's also inhuman: it boots the human element from history, reduces all the participants to stick figures without individual motives, values, or even faces.

 

[Kulindahr]

This is a type of rhetorical non-sequitur the precise name I can't remember.

It's not a non-sequitur at all; it's a perfect illustration of the whole point.

The argument proposed in this thread is that the only thing the Confederate Battle Flag represents is slavery, a slavery that was purely racist white-v-black, and stands for nothing good at all, of any sort.

That's foolishness.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'd agree that Most people aren't worried by either the Confederate Flag or the swastika.

However they probably recognise both equally as symbols of evil.

I don't think the fact that these are symbols of evil justifies trying to ban them - after all - in both cases these represent an Evil that was firmly defeated.

So, for the swastika, do you recommend that the millions to whom the swastika is still a holy symbol, a symbol of fertility and wholeness, find something else to use?

 

[AsianDream]

The reality is that the swastika and the Confederate flag mean different things to different people. No amount of harping on just one meaning will change that. It has nothing to do with palying with words, and everything to do with recognizing that the world is not the simple, tidy place we might like it to be.


Speaking of words... the comparison between a visual symbol and a sound would be the correct one, and then you're absolutely right: a given sound pattern has no intrinsic meaning. That can be demonstrated just using English: we have "row" and "roe", "chased" and "chaste", "picked" and "Pict", "bite" and "byte", "red" and "read", "reed" and "read and "rede", "style" and "stile", "hoe" and "ho", "aloud" and "allowed", "noes" and "nose" and "knows", and the infamous "they're", "their", and "there". And if we go between languages, the examples are even more abundant -- for example, there's a vocal sound that in one language means "frozen waste", in another means "bold spirit", and in another "avenging demon".


The same is true of visual symbols.

In Cantonese the word for "Yes" and "fenale genitals" is identical except for the tone - in fact close enough that most people learning the language actually say "Cunt" when they mean "Yes".

Symbols (visual or verbal) have no intrinsic meaning - only what is generally understood by other people.

In this case there can be very few people that are not aware of the evil represented by the symbol of the Swastika nor the (very similar) evil that is represented by the Confederate Flag.

So completely innocent use of a symbol is not something people should be offended by - howver the majority of those that use both the Swastika and Confederate Flag are well aware of the evil that both of these symbols represent.

In fact more so in the case of the Confederate Flag - in that this has no other "inncoent" meaning except to represent the disgraced and defeated racist regime that once controlled the southern part of what is now the USA

 

[TX-Beau]

Those are nice pieces of fantasy, but they're not what I've been doing at all. I doubt at this point that you've paid more than superficial attention.

What I've been doing is poking holes in an intolerant, close-minded absolutist position that says that the only thing the Confederate battle flag meant to those who marched under it was that blacks had to be kept as slaves, that the whole point of the Confederacy was to make sure that blacks could be beaten, raped, traded, even shot at whim, and that all blacks there were cowering, beaten animals barely reaching any level of humanity.

That's just bullshit, and it's also inhuman: it boots the human element from history, reduces all the participants to stick figures without individual motives, values, or even faces.

Oh please.

Right, you want to promote this idea that there are all these people who marched to war under the Stars and Bars for reasons other than slavery.

Then you gloss over entirely the fact that all the most noble reasons of the above marchers would never have existed without – the south going to war over slavery.

The North didn’t pick this fight; the South did, because they wanted to keep their Peculiar Institution.

There would have been no noble marchers at all without that.

You try and minimize the cause represented by the Stars and Bars by completely ignoring that the majority of Southern Society knew why the war was being waged and had no problem with that. Even way out here in Texas where there were no marauding Union armies they jumped on their horses and rode off to war to defend the south's right to keep it's slaves.

And they marched, under the Stars and Bars.

 

[TX-Beau]

That's interesting, I've only ever heard that term used to describe the other flag.

 

[AsianDream]

Oh please.

Right, you want to promote this idea that there are all these people who marched to war under the Stars and Bars for reasons other than slavery.

Then you gloss over entirely the fact that all the most noble reasons of the above marchers would never have existed without – the south going to war over slavery.

The North didn’t pick this fight; the South did, because they wanted to keep their Peculiar Institution.

There would have been no noble marchers at all without that.

You try and minimize the cause represented by the Stars and Bars by completely ignoring that the majority of Southern Society knew why the war was being waged and had no problem with that. Even way out here in Texas where there were no marauding Union armies they jumped on their horses and rode off to war to defend the south's right to keep it's slaves.

And they marched, under the Stars and Bars.

I agree with you TX-Beau.

Also one of the worst things about the apologists for the Confederate Flag is that they are also often under the delusion that they are promoting "Gods Word".

What halfway decent God would ever have the slightest tolerance for the idea of keeping other human beings as slaves?

 

[TX-Beau]

Colloquially thought it seems what was the Confederate Naval Jack is now being called the "Stars and Bars." Definitions are fluid in colloquial speech.

I suppose that the terms used to define all the separate flags are being applied to the one image that survived the Civil war.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

1) Weird; I always thought Sherman was a monster and the North started the Civil War. The things you learn in forums....

2) As for the Stars & Bars being a symbol for racism: No. The flag represents a lot more than just slavery; it represents the ideals of the rural south (you know, stupid things like dislike of government interference, coming together in a time of need, that a man should be judged on what they've done). Although I understand why it would be associated with racism (it's been incorporated into the symbols of too many racist organizations as a memorial to those fought for slavery), I do think that the flag by itself should be seen as a positive symbol.

If we're going around eliminating symbols of racism, then I could argue the red/green/black Africa symbol could be just as bad. After all, it's been used in a number of black supremacist groups (groups that believe that black people are naturally superior to everyone else). I'm willing to bet that they're are number of symbols that do double time (such as the cross, Star of David, even the triangle (the pink triangle was originally a symbol of homophobia, after all)); do we start eliminating symbols because of part of its past, or do we look at the symbol as it is being used?

RG

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh please.

Right, you want to promote this idea that there are all these people who marched to war under the Stars and Bars for reasons other than slavery.

Then you gloss over entirely the fact that all the most noble reasons of the above marchers would never have existed without – the south going to war over slavery.

The North didn’t pick this fight; the South did, because they wanted to keep their Peculiar Institution.

There would have been no noble marchers at all without that.

You try and minimize the cause represented by the Stars and Bars by completely ignoring that the majority of Southern Society knew why the war was being waged and had no problem with that. Even way out here in Texas where there were no marauding Union armies they jumped on their horses and rode off to war to defend the south's right to keep it's slaves.

And they marched, under the Stars and Bars.

I'm not trying to minimize anything; as I said, I'm poking holes in an absolutist position that allows for no other meaning for that flag than support of slavery.

For the case being argued about the southern flag to be true, it must be shown that there were absolutely no exceptions, that every single man who took up arms for the South fought solely in order to keep blacks enslaved. But that can't be done; it founders on the fact that free blacks also fought for the Confederacy, and on the fact that the Confederacy began freeing the slaves before the totally symbolic (and politically motivated) Emancipation Proclamation.

 

[Kulindahr]

if you want the flag then hang it in your house.... hang it outside your house and talk to your neighbors about it. but if you use it to take someones joy and pursuit of happiness from them then you have taken a basic right from them,

So when the black guy I knew displayed the Confederate flag and spoke of what it meant to him, was he stealing the joy and pursuit of happiness" from rednecks who used it as a racist symbol?

From their faces, I sure think he was -- and I thought that was a very good thing, that he punctured their joy in that symbol.