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Offended By Confederate Flag

^ Aren't those guilty of the evils they committed the real public nuisances?

But they did commit evils: they gave the go-ahead, they provided the opportunity. They're like the drivers of the van the burglars are in -- they may not commit the actual burglary, but they're an integral part of the break-in.
To fail to fight for freedom is to fight against it.
 
How about explaining where you came up with the lies you wrote about me?

I have written no lies about you. I quoted the passage that I was referring to, and I asked for clarification. It was not forthcoming. Instead you wrongly accuse me of lying about you.
 
Personally, I have no interest in raising a toast to skinheads. Or waving a pistol. Or going out of my way to enrage neighbors. If I lived in your neighborhood, I'd keep one eye on my precious freedoms, and the other eye on property values. Call me a prissy, pinko enabler of the Nanny State, but to me, a civil society ought to be civil.

Wave a pistol around here, and you're likely to find that I'd called the cops and you'd be behind bars. It's called "brandishing", and it's both stupid and irresponsible.

If you lived in my neighborhood, you're darned right you'd be civil -- not a nanny-state lover who doesn't accept responsibility for himself or his neighbors. See, I've noticed something everywhere I've lived: the people who believe in a nanny state aren't civil, they'd sooner call the government than treat their neighbors like people, which means they don't consider their neighbors to be people.

Also in my neighborhood, you'd notice that since responsible people take care of their neighborhood, your property value would definitely be firm or improving, because things get taken care of -- as opposed to in nanny-state neighborhoods, where nothing gets taken care of till someone can find someone from the government to do it (or has the connections to get preferred treatment, or, as honest folk would put it, engage in corruption).

You need to read again what kallipolis posted:

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

.... Thomas Paine

-- because a real lover of freedom would raise a toast to the skinheads, and to the Greens, the Wiccans, the Kiwanis, the Widows' Bridge Club, and anyone else with the balls to speak their mind.

If you can't toast people engaging in speech you don't approve of, then you have no respect for freedom, or for that matter, for people.
 
Kuli, are you being intentionally obtuse? Unclean has introduced a moral dimension here, and it's not yours. I believe that my views are not that far from his. You are content with states having the freedom to restrict fundamental liberties more easily than the federal government can. We are not. You believe that same-sex desire is deviance and perversion. We do not.

I have written no lies about you. I quoted the passage that I was referring to, and I asked for clarification. It was not forthcoming. Instead you wrongly accuse me of lying about you.

Yes, you did, right there in the post I already quoted. And now you add a lie, claiming you quoted my post -- look at yours, right there above: not a quote in sight.
 
No. I think you treat people as abstractions. You're an idealogue, plain and simple. When my Mormon neighbors put up Prop 22 signs opposing same-sex marriage, it didn't offend me in the least. They're my friends. I don't hide behind civility!

So far you're the one treating people as abstractions -- to you, any of us who disagree on something are just caricatures.
BTW, thanks for the compliment: being an ideologue on behalf of liberty is the best thing anyone could do, politically.
 
Wave a pistol around here, and you're likely to find that I'd called the cops and you'd be behind bars. It's called "brandishing", and it's both stupid and irresponsible.

If you lived in my neighborhood, you're darned right you'd be civil -- not a nanny-state lover who doesn't accept responsibility for himself or his neighbors. See, I've noticed something everywhere I've lived: the people who believe in a nanny state aren't civil, they'd sooner call the government than treat their neighbors like people, which means they don't consider their neighbors to be people.

Also in my neighborhood, you'd notice that since responsible people take care of their neighborhood, your property value would definitely be firm or improving, because things get taken care of -- as opposed to in nanny-state neighborhoods, where nothing gets taken care of till someone can find someone from the government to do it (or has the connections to get preferred treatment, or, as honest folk would put it, engage in corruption).

You need to read again what kallipolis posted:



-- because a real lover of freedom would raise a toast to the skinheads, and to the Greens, the Wiccans, the Kiwanis, the Widows' Bridge Club, and anyone else with the balls to speak their mind.

If you can't toast people engaging in speech you don't approve of, then you have no respect for freedom, or for that matter, for people.
Maybe the reason your neighbors are civil is that they are terrified that you will come after them with a gun. Do you find that they tend to avoid eye contact with you?
 
Kul: Let me try and help you see what Ico's saying.

Moral Absolutionist: There is right, there is wrong. Good and Bad. My way, and not my way.

Moral Relativist: Everyone may decide what is right and wrong for themselves. There is no absolute good or evil (though there may be what society sees as productive and harmful...)


Your position is one of a moral relativist. While you view free speech as "absolute", you do so regardless of the morality of the speaker. That is, weather someone uses their right to speak freely for promoting the cause of freedom and righteousness or promoting tyranny and evil, you would still believe that their right to say their view freely must be secured, that they must be allowed to say it.

A moral absolutist would say that they should only have freedom of speech if they use it for good, freedom, and righteousness.


...but, of course, that isn't freedom at all, is it? By its nature freedom is relativist; it knows no good or evil, only that freedom SHOULD be. While this IS an absolute statement, it is NOT a moral one (in the sense that it isn't concerned with the good or evil that a person does in the process of being free), only that the condition be applied fairly to everyone.


That...is what you're saying, right Ico? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I think the block to understanding is that Kul sees freedom as absolute and you're not clearly defining how the moral component of moral absolutist/relativist is where you're saying he's not absolute. ^_^
 
We are more or less agreeing. But, again, I think it is a bit much to say that we seek not to see skin color. Rather, what we (should) seek is to be able to see skin color without rendering complete judgments about a person solely on the basis of his or her color.

Similarly, we should seek a society in which people do notice whether you tend to date people of the same sex, even live with and/or marry people of the same sex, yet they do not leap to any conclusions about what kind of person you are from your being attracted to people of the same sex.

Anyone today who would claim to be so liberated as to not even notice whether a person is gay or lesbian just sounds silly.


Maybe you're right, but it's easier for me not to notice.

When I talk to someone, I hear their voice, their words. I listen to the combination of their mind and heart. The way I see it, if I was in a room with no lights on talking to this person, what would our conversation be like? Why should it be any different simply because I can see the color of their skin? That I can look and focus on their eyes? As I said, I talked to that guy the other day and didn't actually think about the color of their skin until much later when someone pointed it out to me. While I kinda kicked myself for my imperception (I'd rather be a perceptive person than one lacking perception), it's nice to know that skin color really DOESN'T matter to me, so much so that I didn't even notice it. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that that wasn't an isolated incident. And ya know what? I happen to LIKE that that wasn't an isolated incident of me not noticing. ..| I happen to LIKE that I don't notice the color of someone's skin.


I came across a similar situation last weekend. I was talking to a girl I was tutoring and we discussed politics and the sad state of affairs things are in. She came to the conclusion that I was a...unique individual (I don't see why it was such a surprise, I tell people this all the time yet it seems to always surprise people when they realize it themselves...) She "admitted" to me that she did something she thought I would find immoral on some level since, apparently, I'm this really nice guy saint or something.

Turns out she has a girlfriend.

...so I said, that's nice. ^_^ It doesn't matter to me. Long as you aren't going around killing people or doing horrible and/or inhumane things, I honestly don't care. That you have someone to be with, to go through life with, is a boon, and not one I would condemn.

I have to wonder how many people have thought I'd be disappointed in them or call them a sinner or something. To me, a truly moral person understands that it is not their place to judge others. Not by the color of their skin, their sexuality, or anything else. Provided they are not causing harm, they should be free to go and do as they should be free to go and do!


So what changed? Nothing. I treated her exactly as I did before. To use your words, I didn't "notice" that she was...well, lesbian or bi, I didn't ask. It didn't matter. She's a person with a mind, emotions, feelings, and needing some help with the class that I was tutoring in. ^_^ That's all that mattered to me. The rest of the afternoon, I didn't even think about it except when she took a minute to send a text message to the "girl."

Honestly, is there something so wrong with me that I think like I do?



...you say it's silly? Maybe I truly am ahead of my time. Is that such a bad thing? What you say is impossible or far off I see in my own life and my own actions. I don't want to be praised for it, I just want you to know that it IS possible. Not 50 years from now, not 5 years from now, but NOW, today. If I can do it, then who can't? I'm honestly not all that special, ya know? Just...different. Nothing extra-Human about me.

It's not silly, it's not naive, it's the way things should be and the way they can be. To tell yourself (or others) otherwise is simply a crutch by which society can limp on a while longer before getting over itself.



What I find truly funny about it all though...I'm one of those people that's as politically incorrect as possible because of how stupid THAT is. ^_^
 
Well then, if that clears things up for Kul, then you're welcome, Ico. And if not, you're welcome for nothing, Ico. :D
 
Maybe the reason your neighbors are civil is that they are terrified that you will come after them with a gun. Do you find that they tend to avoid eye contact with you?

LOL

My neighbors are happy to have me as a neighbor because they know that if their kids are home with just a baby sitter and someone breaks in, the kids won't be another set who dialed 911 and were found later by the cops: I'll be there in under ten seconds; in that time, the 911 operator will have gotten to the third question on the list.
The only people around here who avoid eye contact with me are the drug addicts who darned well know that if they're committing a crime anywhere near me, they're going down -- and if they're caught in the act of attempting to harm someone, chances are they're going down permanently.

You have a really warped view of reality -- thanks for the laughs.
 
Maybe the reason your neighbors are civil is that they are terrified that you will come after them with a gun. Do you find that they tend to avoid eye contact with you?

Not everyone's afraid of good people having the means to defend themselves and others. Do you avoid eye contact with the police or military persons? I tend to look such people in the eye. Generally, I like what I see...
 
Not everyone's afraid of good people having the means to defend themselves and others. Do you avoid eye contact with the police or military persons? I tend to look such people in the eye. Generally, I like what I see...
No, I don't avoid eye contact with military or police. Just with grown men who are obsessive about guns, who regulary go on about who they are going to shoot if they cross their path, who still live with their mother and consider themselves unelected judge,jury and executioner. I find it strangely threatening. Don't know why....:rolleyes:
 
No, I don't avoid eye contact with military or police. Just with grown men who are obsessive about guns, who regulary go on about who they are going to shoot if they cross their path, who still live with their mother and consider themselves unelected judge,jury and executioner. I find it strangely threatening. Don't know why....:rolleyes:

So what about nice guys who help bugs out of swimming pools so they don't drown and would only ever hurt anyone if it was for the defense of other people?

Maybe you're too trusting? While there is the whole respect for authority thing, I don't trust police and military being the only people allowed the tools to defend. It's just...not safe for too few people to be entrusted with so much power while everyone else is expected to surrender it to them. Me...I'd prefer a shield to a sword any day, but you have to work with what you have, right? And martial arts training can only go so far if the opposition is armed with guns, ya know? ^_^

...not to mention defensive technology has been behind offensive tech for over a century, though that may be changing in the near future...I still probably won't get a neat shield though. Nice thing is that there aren't any laws against carrying THEM yet as far as I know. Not that they'd be much use against guns anyway...
 
So how can you tell which ones are honoring fallen soldiers and which ones are the "fuck you"? And does the former justify the latter (that is, should, in attempting to stem the "fuck you", we also outlaw the "honor"?)
 
Maybe the reason your neighbors are civil is that they are terrified that you will come after them with a gun. Do you find that they tend to avoid eye contact with you?

Just what I was thinking.

Not everyone's afraid of good people having the means to defend themselves and others. Do you avoid eye contact with the police or military persons? I tend to look such people in the eye. Generally, I like what I see...

Thank you, matt.
As a matter of fact, when I go out shooting with the Pink Pistols, I sling a rifle over one shoulder, and usually have a handgun on each hip, plus sometimes a shotgun. My neighbors, except the police-state Democrat across the street, wave, and I occasionally get asked which rifle I picked this time.

And when I run into people who won't look me in the eye when I'm carrying openly, I feel sorry for them: they're covered a bit in Jeff Snyder's Nation of Cowards (see http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_78870868, for a review, http://www.gunowners.org/op9805.htm, for the text of the title essay, and http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Nation-of-Cowards/Jeff-Snyder/e/9781888118087/?itm=3 for availability).
 
No, I don't avoid eye contact with military or police. Just with grown men who are obsessive about guns, who regulary go on about who they are going to shoot if they cross their path, who still live with their mother and consider themselves unelected judge,jury and executioner. I find it strangely threatening. Don't know why....:rolleyes:

Maybe it's because you indulge in these fantasies about such people?
Personally, I've never known such a person, and if I did, I'd tell him to get an education, or lose the firearm(s).
And if you avoid eye contact with them, that says far more about you than them.

So what about nice guys who help bugs out of swimming pools so they don't drown and would only ever hurt anyone if it was for the defense of other people?

Nice image, with the drowning. I do in fact fish bugs out of swimming pools, and carry spiders out of the house. The image brings up another thought, from being a lifeguard for seven years....

Carrying a firearm brings the same responsibility as being a lifeguard: you've prepared yourself to do the business of protecting, and put yourself out there, and thereby assumed a duty. It isn't just the Old Testament that declares that the guy who is armed, sees an assault on another person, and does nothing is as much a rapist or murderer as the one who committed the actual act -- and those who refuse to be prepared to defend their fellow citizens against crime are only a notch behind.

Maybe you're too trusting? While there is the whole respect for authority thing, I don't trust police and military being the only people allowed the tools to defend. It's just...not safe for too few people to be entrusted with so much power while everyone else is expected to surrender it to them.

The police are far too corrupt, far too willing to push their authority on people, far too ready to cross the line and enforce not the law but their personal preferences already. The attitude that they hold the authority, and the rest of us are sheep, is widespread, and dangerous.

Me...I'd prefer a shield to a sword any day, but you have to work with what you have, right? And martial arts training can only go so far if the opposition is armed with guns, ya know? ^_^

...not to mention defensive technology has been behind offensive tech for over a century, though that may be changing in the near future...I still probably won't get a neat shield though. Nice thing is that there aren't any laws against carrying THEM yet as far as I know. Not that they'd be much use against guns anyway...

The shield and sword illustration is telling: the sword was a tool that required extensive training to use to much effect, so those who could afford such training lorded it over others with impunity. They were an invitation to tyranny, and the invitation was accepted regularly. One reason that tales such as Zorro are so liked is that they ring a bell with our realization that tyranny is too common, and those with the skill and power to fight it are few.
Firearms changed that: the American Revolution would never have worked if "peasants" and "rabble" (to steal Lord Cornwallis' terms) hadn't been able to face "nobility" as equals.

It's also telling in that no matter how good the man with the sword, a man with a bow and arrow could strike him down -- and the best defense against the man with that bow was another with his own. The widespread laws against crossbows illustrate the awareness by the ruling class that such tools were levelers; they made equality not just a philosophical truth but one a person could put into practice. Those laws also point up another fact: historically, the imposition of laws against personal weapons of self-defense have always, invariably, been the bedfellow of authoritarianism.

Today's version of the shield is, of course, kevlar and its successors. Fables about "cop-killer" bullets aside, if a person wanted to wear body-armor underwear all the time, fears of violent assault could well be reduced. Yet the invulnerable man has a weakness: invulnerability is no weapon, and it takes a weapon to defend one's family, friends, neighbors, and other fellow humans against those who would use weapons indiscriminately.

What it comes down to is that a projectile weapon is best fought by another projectile weapon. And while Jeff Snyder is right that we are by and large a nation of cowards, a significant truth is that this applies to the criminal as well: statistics show that in the vast majority of instances, a criminal faced with an armed (intended) victim turns and runs.

Where the Confederate battle flag comes in here is that it declares a refusal to turn and run, and I suspect that subconsciously that's what a lot of people who fly it mean by it. It's a declaration akin to, while arguably less appropriate than, the "Don't tread on me" banners of the Revolution. What the South learned, at the end, was that defiance itself didn't bring victory, because those willing to inflame the masses, ignore the Constitution, and bring to bear overwhelming force while totally discounting casualties could carry the day. Since we have an administration at the present time which shares all those attributes with Lincoln's, one may well wonder if we the people are going to willingly roll over and play southerner to Washington's carpetbaggers, all without a fight.

Maybe next time you see that banner with its crossed bars and bright stars, perhaps that's the question you ought to ask: will I stand against the abusers of power, or will I roll over and bare my throat?
 
This conversation is so far off topic and has basically went from a discussion of one myopic absolutist bigot's hatred of the South to many myopic absolutist bigots' hatred of the Bill of Rights manifested as an attack on Kulindahr. And though I do find it humorous how someone who likes guns so much tends to make himself a target (putting big red x's on shirt and wearing antlers while prancing about a forest of trigger-happy anti-gun folk), I don't believe this falls in line with the CoC.

Alfie always accused me of highjacking threads, but it's been the anti-human-dignity folks who do it. If I posted my intent to write letters to the editor, picket City Hall, or hold a rally about an issue, people would thrill to the exercise of freedom of speech, of the press, of the right to assemble. If I hammered on the issue of getting gays the equality before the law in matters of marriage/unions/partnerships, people would applaud my defense of the right of freedom of association.
But mention the right which underlies all the others, the one that both defends and defines human dignity, and people go ballistic, abandon the topic, depart from rationality, and contrive an unintended circus.

It isn't that I "love guns so much", IC; I love my second amendment rights no more than my first, fourth, fifth, etc. But the others (except for Bush, McCain & co.'s weaseling campaign of religious discrimination, free speech, etc.) aren't much under assault these days from people who don't get it. The issue becomes pointed because where the other basic rights are under attack by mostly government, this one is under attack by my fellow citizens.

To continue a theme from my last post, those fellow citizens are like the south, if they'd just handed over their guns and let the Union shoot them all, or more accurately, like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, who trusted Hitler to protect them.
 
I think (or hope) rather that it was unintentional bait. The OP has a jaded view that spawned this thread, and people with a bit more....awareness got their two cents in. Kuli is a fucking superstar so of course people are going to attack him.

I wish I was a "fucking superstar", maybe it would help me find a bf? :lol:

I see where the OP is coming from but he's ignoring the fact that the union was just as racist and had about as many slaves as the south. But in modern times, LOTS of people fly the confederate flag as a big "fuck you" to blacks. A gang of neo-nazi wanna-be's in my high-school sewed confederate flag patches onto their clothing and backpacks. In some cases it's used to honor soldiers who died, in others it's, again, an intentional "fuck you" to minorities.

I'm going to hazard a guess that most of those who fly the banner as a "F-U" to blacks would stop if the great majority of blacks didn't seem so stubborn in acting entitled to free handouts, and so determined to have government take care of them instead of them taking care of themselves. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others all polish that image almost every time they open their mouths, making it appear that all blacks want is a free ride -- and personally I find it hard to reject that image, having lived where blacks, who were actually better off economically, sat on their rears and listened to musci while their neighborhoods were falling apart, but a few blocks away the Cubans were pooling their pennies to repair the broken curbs, replace the posts of broken signs, pick up the litter, organize neighborhood watches, and basically governing themselves without looking for someone else to take care of it.

One of the real ironies I see is that a fair number of people who hate the display of the Confederate flag are high on the economic ladder, "respectable", and the sort of Republican who before Lincoln would have been slave owners, and gone to churches that mangled the scriptures to assure them that they had a right to treat other humans as property because they were lesser beings.
For those of you who can't stand that banner because you're on the 'liberal' side of things, how do you feel about your bedfellows?

So how can you tell which ones are honoring fallen soldiers and which ones are the "fuck you"? And does the former justify the latter (that is, should, in attempting to stem the "fuck you", we also outlaw the "honor"?)

Require them to learn Latin and put the motto "pro domus quod prosapia" around the flags for honored dead. :badgrin:
 
^ Huh, I guess they take the Dukes of Hazzard serious 'down south' in Illinois. I never liked that show... seemed stupid to me. Hm, wasn't the OP 'Cher' from Illinois? My-my-my...

Yes im from illinois and im in school as we speak. I re read my history book portion of the civil war and it was like this.

Lincoln got elected. Racist rednecks got scared that he would abolish slavery so they separated from the union. Lincoln never said he would abolish slavery.. and he tried to keep the peace. Finally the war began. A few slave states remained loyal and Lincoln did not abolish slavery there. He wanted to preserve the union.. but after some time.. after the confederate flag had been established.. Lincoln declared slavery would be abolished and the Emancipation Proclamation was set before the civil war even ended it. but the hill billy racist rednecks didn't listen. They wanted to separate for ONE reason.. SLAVERY. They wanted to keep slavery... and actually believed that black people were NOT people.. but PROPERTY! They were no better then Nazi Germany.. these familes were seperated.. killed, mistreated, starved, far longer then the Jewish community had been in Europe. These rednecks created the KKK who use the Confederate flag as their symbol. IT DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT THE FLAG REPRESENTED!!!! Time does not change WHAT HAPPENED! I care because people today in this generation are so slow and don't wanna enlighten themselves. I am not saying i know everything but these are the facts. What written fact in history said that the confederate flag is hearby a joke and no longer a racist symbol. The KKK and neo-nazis STILL use it at meetings and at racist conventions down south.
 
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