Offended By Confederate Flag

[Sammie13]

We went through THREE freakin' gubernatorial elections in GA where all anyone did was argue about the state flag. It was as if nothing else mattered in the state ('94, '98, '02). It also was the biggest contributor to the Republicans taking over and dominating state politics because our Dems finally caved in to all the anti-flag whiners, and then it backfired on them in the elections--after the flag was removed, Dems lost over a century of control of the state house, the state senate, and the governor's mansion.

Myself? I have evolved. As more liberal in the 1980's-90's, I just shrugged my shoulders and bought into the Dems argument, and although I rather liked the look of the GA flag, I felt like if African Americans find it so offensive, I'm okay with it going. I have evolved today, and as ICO7 and Midnight have said, essentially, "get over it"...there are things in life that none of us like. Suck it up, cupcake!!!

The truly sad thing here during those 12+ years of in-fighting about the confederate flag is how wasteful it was of resources.

And whites and blacks just DUG IN to their beliefs with such passion, which I personally lacked on the flag issue either way. Some whites, and yes many but not all were rednecks, who didn't understand anything about history and were politically apathetic suddenly acted like this was the biggest issue in the history of mankind. They wanted to keep the flag not because of history, which they would state in public in P.C. circles, but because they wanted to defy blacks who were equally passionate about the flag. I had many a debate with average whites as well as redneck whites asking 'what is your real motive.' I could tell when it was defiance motivating a white person as opposed to history, culture and nostalgia (which is where I actually now stand myself).

On the other hand, blacks were just as stubborn. My issue there was the money and energy that they invested in this issue was incredible. People, it's a piece of fabric. You can change a flag, but you can't change the hate in someone's heart....there is little to gain with a 'win'. And the black community should have been pouring all that flag passion into real problems -- education, housing, health, teen pregnancy, fatherless children, female obesity/nutrition, rampant drug and alcohol abuse, crime/gangs, and the list goes on -- yet, for over a decade blacks' passion, funds and their issue PR machine was worried about a damn flag of all things.

To the OP and his anti-South rants:

My mother always said that stupid is as stupid does....and that's all I've got to say about that.

 

[letme]

Ok, Ok...I guess we should all embrace our "inner fuck you". But for myself, I prefer to simply wave the white flag of surrender.

Damn Toffer You must be French !!

 

[kneelin]

So, we're trampling on their precious rights? 'Cause they can't wave that symbol of hate over the State Legislature? Cause they can't alienate and disenfranchise? Dude, it doesn't take much effort to take a flag off a pole and put it in a museum where it belongs.

Your rights stop when you infringe on their rights and vice-versa. You are suffering no demonstrable harm, so live and let live; enjoy your life and ignore theirs . . . let them do the same.

 

[Jory]

The origins of Yelling Fire in a crowded theater

This is from the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Schenck v. U.S.
(1919), setting limits on the freedom of speech guaranteed by the
First Amendment to the Constitution. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes,
Junior, wrote: "The most stringent protection of free speech would
not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a
panic."

 

[MystikWizard]

If the flag solely represented "racism", "slavery", and "discrimination", I would agree with them and say it should be removed. But the problem is that it doesn't and therefore it is a more complicated issue. There are people that appreciate the flag for it's historical value ... and there are some narrow minded people that want to solely equate the flag to being a symbol of racism.

What you should be concentrating on is the actions of racism and discrimination. Not a piece of cloth. That piece of cloth is not physically doing anybody any harm, and the flag itself isn't oppressing anyone.

Imagine if one day, you just woke up and said to yourself "you know, I am not going to be offended by that flag anymore" and just went about your business? Now, imagine if everyone else that currently has problems with the flag stopped looking at that flag as a symbol of racism, and rather looked at it as a piece of history ... and didn't let it bother them? You see? Problem solved.

If you can demonstrate how that flag is doing you physical harm, then please present your evidence. If you can demonstrate that the flag itself is causing you to be discriminated against, please present your evidence. If not, then it's time to man up and quit whining about things that are only an issue, because you allow it be an issue for you.

Get mad about the physical actions of racism and discrimination themselves. Don't worry about trying to tie those 2 things to a flag, that does have legitimate historical value, and try to make it a White vs Black thing.

 

[Lostlover]

Nobody finds these photos offensive? I find them very offensive. I don't tolerate racism or discrimination and nobody should stand for it.

I'm going to redneck land next week... the confederate flag reminds them of their glory days. They have nothing going on for them in the present. They live in fear. Fear of what's different.

I will be in east Texas/west Louisiana for the next two weeks.

I think it speaks volumes that they're a bastion of support for the Republican party. Year after year. Election after election.

Normally, I'd say just ignore them. But they're too many where you're at... just move to California or New York.

 

[MystikWizard]

^
Well, darn it, I'll just have to work on that mental projection! After all, It's such a pretty flag...Oh Emperor Palpatine, you always have the answers! You blythe spirit you!

Well, thank you.

But as far as "mental projection", that is exactly what it is ... in the big scheme of things.


Flag tells brain that it is solely a symbol of racism and slavery.

Result- "I'm offended".




Now what if ...

Flag tells brain that it is a historical symbol, encompassing the entire, overall history of the South.

Result- "I will walk by flag, see it as nothing more than a historical symbol, and move on. I'm not offended, and it causes me no harm."


As the saying goes ... it's all in the head.

 

[Kulindahr]

FWIW: We had some cyclists who would train up in the mountains. They were constantly hassled by passing rednecks. Guys in lycra on road bikes were seen with a bit of disdain. So the coach put rebel flags on their jerseys. Suddenly the rednecks were offering yells of support and drinks to them. Hey, if it saves your life....

Creative.
It also points out what is to me the most offensive thing about flying the Confederate battle flag: most of that flying of the banner is done by ignorant individuals clueless about its actual history -- such as the fact that it was flown by many blacks who fought for the Confederacy as a symbol of their loyalty to Robert E. Lee, who fought not for slavery, but for the homes of southerners both black and white.

And what being Mexican has to do with the Confederate flag, I have no idea. Additionally, it is not the Constitution which says one cannot yell "Fire!" in a theater. That would be the result of a court case. ICO7 will undoubtedly give you more information.

I was going to provide info about the origin of the "Fire!" statement, but since IC has been nominated.....

I feel nobody cares because THEY themselves did NOT go through it and see the seriousness and hear it on the news.... it didn't happen in our lifetime.. hence.. its not important and its all a joke! So lets forget the slavery and lets disregard what happened.

Far more important to me would be to wake people up with respect to the new forms of slavery being imposed on Americans, not as a form of cheap labor, but a matter of the government being able to treat people like property, with virtual impunity.

Not saying this is good or bad or that the flag is okay...but you asked. Click to follow...

Tight!

If I wanted to fly a rebel flag, I'd get me a generic version of the old "Don't Tread On Me!" that was adapted by a number of groups during the War of Independence. The Confederate battle flag is just too confusing in what it stands for to make a statement of any kind.



An afterthought: I see nothing wrong with flying a banner or flag as a symbol of "White Pride". If we can have black pride, women's pride, gay pride, and others, we can certainly have White Pride. The problem is when it crosses over to be White Power (hetero power, whatever).

 

[bighair]

If the flag solely represented "racism", "slavery", and "discrimination", I would agree with them and say it should be removed. But the problem is that it doesn't and therefore it is a more complicated issue. There are people that appreciate the flag for it's historical value ... and there are some narrow minded people that want to solely equate the flag to being a symbol of racism.

What you should be concentrating on is the actions of racism and discrimination. Not a piece of cloth. That piece of cloth is not physically doing anybody any harm, and the flag itself isn't oppressing anyone.

Imagine if one day, you just woke up and said to yourself "you know, I am not going to be offended by that flag anymore" and just went about your business? Now, imagine if everyone else that currently has problems with the flag stopped looking at that flag as a symbol of racism, and rather looked at it as a piece of history ... and didn't let it bother them? You see? Problem solved.

If you can demonstrate how that flag is doing you physical harm, then please present your evidence. If you can demonstrate that the flag itself is causing you to be discriminated against, please present your evidence. If not, then it's time to man up and quit whining about things that are only an issue, because you allow it be an issue for you.

Get mad about the physical actions of racism and discrimination themselves. Don't worry about trying to tie those 2 things to a flag, that does have legitimate historical value, and try to make it a White vs Black thing.

I kind of had the impression the Confederate flag was a symbol of a South that talked big, but ultimately was not able to ever actually win the war it had pinned its existance on. I honestly can't understand why anyone at all would want to be associated with such a symbol of complete failure?

 

[MystikWizard]

I kind of had the impression the Confederate flag was a symbol of a South that talked big, but ultimately was not able to ever actually win the war it had pinned its existance on. I honestly can't understand why anyone at all would want to be associated with such a symbol of complete failure?

It's simply a historical value associated with it, that is obviously important to a lot of people, for their own personal reasons. I honestly could care less about it. I think a lot of other people should, quite frankly, do the same.

 

[Sammie13]

I kind of had the impression the Confederate flag was a symbol of a South that talked big, but ultimately was not able to ever actually win the war it had pinned its existance on. I honestly can't understand why anyone at all would want to be associated with such a symbol of complete failure?

What?!?! That war was was supposed to last 1-3 months. The Confederacy was totally outmanned in numbers, weapons, finance, industrial capabilities, you name it. Study history...study military books. Churchill thought the confederate war strategies of Jackson and Lee were brilliant. The confederacy was winning numerous battles where they were out-forced 10-1. Lee was a mastermind. No one ever questioned the will, tenacity or strategy of the south and it is that pride that goes with the flag. It is not simply looked back upon as a W or an L.

Also, I wonder why people feel we should remove all symbols, monuments, etc of the Civil War? We are a free country without censorship, in my opinion, to remove all mention of a horrible time in our past reeks of something more common in a communist country....to sweep everything under the carpet and pretend like it didn't happen. We live it and we learn from it...and we learn by never forgetting....just as we should also never forget Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

When we talk about the Confederate flag, we're not just talking about Civil War Era conflict - we're also talking about the knight riders of the KKK and the lynchings that occurred as late as 1965 ( in my childhood ). I have no trouble with Civil War reenactors using the flag. But waving it over a Statehouse is divisive in the extreme.

THAT is totally fine.. using it as a memory of the civil war for museums of reminding others of what happened and using it temporarily in schools to show what happened is ok too..

But hanging it in your home and in public all year long... thats what offended me and im sure there are many thousands more that would agree that part is racist. Just some white man holding a big ole' confederate flag in his house and had no ancestors in the civil war.. not a state flag containing that confederate flag... JUST the plain confederate flag.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

But what you are doing is giving your side of the argument more weight. What about the people who do view it as a symbol of history? What about their rights? Why do you feel like your views are more important and should be given more consideration than theirs?

Some overly-sensitive people look at that flag and immediately think "slavery" and "racism". When it is the practice itself (racism) which should be condemned .... not the flag itself. Like it or not, the problem is that flag means different things to different people.

Just imagine if every person who was bitching and moaning about that flag, took a serious chill pill and said "you know what, I am not letting that flag bother me anymore. I accept that it is a symbol of our history, I'll let it be, and move on with my life. As long as I am not discriminated against." No conflict.

Honestly, aren't there more important things going on in the world to get up in arms over?

I have a right to care.. if I was black.. and walked into a neighborhood with it being shown... i'd be scared and would not feel welcome. Even if i was with a black friend on vacation driving through... i would feel uncomfortable because im white and they're black. thats not right at all.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

You may be offended by the confederate flag all you want, and make up passages in the Constitution to justify it like a pathetic evangelical Christian's ridiculous so-called 'morality' backed by made up/spun scripture, but no where in the Constitution are you guaranteed a right not to be offended. Get over it, Cher. As for falsely yelling, 'fire!'---consider that argument for the limitation of free speech began in 1919, not 1787: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

I'm offended by religious references in politics, but there's not much I can do about it as I can't demonstrate they are doing any harm. I suspect you have that same problem.

hon i never made a religious reference.. im a person with Christian values but thats it. I never said anything about God that i can remember. If anything its the southern republicans the makes references with God and politics. Example Bush was making religious comments and thats one of the reasons they voted him to fuck our economy and the gay community up some more.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Well, thank you.

But as far as "mental projection", that is exactly what it is ... in the big scheme of things.


Flag tells brain that it is solely a symbol of racism and slavery.

Result- "I'm offended".




Now what if ...

Flag tells brain that it is a historical symbol, encompassing the entire, overall history of the South.

Result- "I will walk by flag, see it as nothing more than a historical symbol, and move on. I'm not offended, and it causes me no harm."


As the saying goes ... it's all in the head.

NO that flag does NOT tell the entire history of the south! It speaks of a certain TIME when slavery was being ended.. the flag was created for ONE thing.. the civil war.. that's when it was made! No other reason. The south has more history then that!

 

[bighair]

What?!?! That war was was supposed to last 1-3 months. The Confederacy was totally outmanned in numbers, weapons, finance, industrial capabilities, you name it. Study history...study military books. Churchill thought the confederate war strategies of Jackson and Lee were brilliant. The confederacy was winning numerous battles where they were out-forced 10-1. Lee was a mastermind. No one ever questioned the will, tenacity or strategy of the south and it is that pride that goes with the flag. It is not simply looked back upon as a W or an L.

Also, I wonder why people feel we should remove all symbols, monuments, etc of the Civil War? We are a free country without censorship, in my opinion, to remove all mention of a horrible time in our past reeks of something more common in a communist country....to sweep everything under the carpet and pretend like it didn't happen. We live it and we learn from it...and we learn by never forgetting....just as we should also never forget Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

Yet the Confederacy still lost despite their brilliance. And in any war that is ultimately what counts. You don't get second prizes in a civil war, especially one fought for such an ugly cause as slavery.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

You are now saying that people voted for Bush so he could 'fuck' our economy.

You are not even making sense.

He hates the gay community for one.

This war is killing this economy and the hicks wanna say its the best thing for our country because Bush said so. Normally wars are good because they stimulate jobs.. that's not the case this time. We have spent a trillion dollars or more.

Bush sent so many companies overseas causing so many to lose their jobs.

There are other factors besides bush that lead to a shitty economy.. but mostly its him. Asshole that he is. He vetoed the Hate crime law for LGBT because he said it was NOT necessary.

 

[Jaime]

Yet the Confederacy still lost despite their brilliance. And in any war that is ultimately what counts. You don't get second prizes in a civil war, especially one fought for such an ugly cause as slavery.

the civil war was fought over states' rights. slavery just happened to be the most controversial of the rights in question at the time. and this is a conflict that still exists in this country, though the sides are less clearly defined now than they were in the 1850's and 60's.

 

[construct]

the civil war was fought over states' rights. slavery just happened to be the most controversial of the rights in question at the time. and this is a conflict that still exists in this country, though the sides are less clearly defined now than they were in the 1850's and 60's.

Or the 1950s and 60s when "states rights" was code for segregation?

It's hard for me to talk about "states rights" without hearing "the right to discriminate on the basis of race" as the subtext.

 

[MystikWizard]

NO that flag does NOT tell the entire history of the south! It speaks of a certain TIME when slavery was being ended.. the flag was created for ONE thing.. the civil war.. that's when it was made! No other reason. The south has more history then that!

It speaks of a portion of the South's history. I'm sorry, but no matter how much you want to bitch, kick your feet, stomp, and moan, it does not change the fact that it is part of the South's history.

If you don't like it, that's really too bad. Like ICO said, nowhere in the Constitution do you have a right "not to be offended".

You are the one making who is making it all about racism and slavery. Like I said, if you simply told yourself in your mind that it isn't about the issue, and you looked at it from a historical perspective, then the problem is solved.

If you are being discriminated against, or are having hate crimes committed against you, then that's one thing. Not being able to see both sides of the broader picture is another.

The problem is that you are too narrow minded and you see things from only your point of view. When the flag means different things to different people.

It is not just your opinion that counts.

If you can show that the flag is causing physical harm, then please feel free to show us. Other than that, you are taking that flag, and you are making it all about racism and slavery, like I said. You, and other like-minded individuals are doing this yourselves. So, you guys are the ones causing all the problems. I put the blame on you.

However, if you can't show us what physical harm the flag is causing, it's time to grow up and move on with the situation. There are other people's perspectives out there, other than your own ... and you're going to find that out real fast as you enter the real world.