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Offended By Confederate Flag

I went to kkk.com and they are selling hats.. and saying what many said in this post.. that its a Southern HERITAGE thing.. not a HATE thing with the confederate flag.

http://www.ozarkcraft.net/hats.htm

Hmmm similar to what many are saying here... sounds familiar?

Heritage not hate.. my ass.
How is being the decendent of someone who owned slaves in a land you live in heritage? So being a southern white person is a nationality or ethnicity.. whatever. They're just white americans.. being in the south doesn't make you special. You're no better or no less then someone in the north.

And they dream of a christian white america with the confederate flag flying high.. with the saying..

ITS HERITAGE NOT HATE.
 
Good grief, Cher. There are so many things you could be out there doing to help the black community instead of harping on a flag. Go out there and help youth avoid joining gangs, teach about prevention of early parenthood, teach men to take care of their children and their child's mother, promote stopping drugs and alcohol, rally youth to stay in school, etc. So many things that could use your focus where you could actually help deliver value to the black community, yet you're worried about a symbol and how it potentially makes people feel.

Cher, find you a belt, pull your pants up, and then go out there in the AA community and use your passion to make good things happen, and improve people's quality of life.

By the way, I was driving through the middle of "redneck" country this weekend, and decided to take note of all the homes where there were flags hanging. You know what, I didn't see a single confederate flag in rural GA (doesn't mean that somewhere someone doesn't have one). There were lots of US flags, a ton of college sport team flags, a lot of seasonal/garden-type flags with flowers, birds, etc, and some Nascar flags. But, sorry no confederate flags...and I would have taken a picture for you, too.:rolleyes:
 
Excuse me blacks fought on the side of the confederacy.. because society did not want them educated! They did not fully understand what was going on and were told a lot of lies.. some knew maybe.. but it was out of fear.

As for the black university student.. I don't think he understands just how serious that symbol is. And being at a university doesn't mean anything. Alot of people have academic smarts and know facts.. does it make them WISE? It's the racism of today that makes them think so low of themselves! How is it a good symbol. When did it become a good thing?

I'll see if anyone else wants to respond to your first paragraph.

As to this particular university student, I suspect he knew more about that flag than you could dream of: he was a history major -- U.S. history, black studies, to be precise.
My point was that you have no idea in the world why he flew it -- but that your sweeping generalization was, and remains, false.


Re-enactments are for educational purposes which ARE a good thing. I agree with you on that entirely! We need to know what symbols mean because actions and signs can speak so much louder then what words can say.

Sticking the middle finger at an authority figure is a symbol.. never said a word to the officer.. but he feels offended and arrests me. Its symbolism, why should he care? Symbolism has a major impact on the world today, the past, and the future.

Re-enactments for educational purposes? I know guys who participate in re-enactments, and they'd just stare at you, then look at each other and laugh -- one of those, "he really doesn't get it" laughs.
Others may make use of those re-enactments for educational purposes, but that's secondary.
 
Heritage not hate.. my ass.
How is being the decendent of someone who owned slaves in a land you live in heritage? So being a southern white person is a nationality or ethnicity.. whatever. They're just white americans.. being in the south doesn't make you special. You're no better or no less then someone in the north.

Time to play Marley, and post some questions.
Naw, just two:

How many southerners who fought for the Confederacy owned slaves?
How many black slaves were owned by other blacks?



I'll give you a tidbit for that last question: the majority of black slaves in Charleston were not owned by white men.


The first question addresses the fact that even to the South, the war wasn't about slavery.
The first and second both address the misconceptions about being white in the south.
 
It wasn't over control...they didn't wanna be controlled on giving up their slaves because they were too lazy to work.

I can't believe I missed this before....

I'll refer you back to my two questions, and add another:

What was the median economic status of a white slave owner in the South in, say, 1860? Take note of their occupations, btw.
 
This is my business.. its why people discuss Global warming. I'm doing my part by trying to learn about the world and educate others. People wanna defend it for one reason... it takes their shield/disguise away of having issues with colored people. The south seceded over one issue.. slavery. That flag was the rebel flag to keep it.

Any black American embracing that symbol has self loathing issues or doesn't think so highly of themselves.. or growing up in the south they saw it as a southern pride symbol.. got older.. didn't care.. and figured it to be just a piece of cloth.. the people who kept it alive for him to find it a part of his culture.. were angry pissed off rednecks that lost their slaves. They kept it alive so that a black man like him would grow up around it not fully aware. Had his parents told him the history and he being able to comprehend it at such an early age such as 4 then he would think very different of it today.

Its like fast food.. all the kids wanted McDonalds. So did I. It tasted so good. Good god nobody ever told me just how bad it was... what was really in my food. I figured good tasting food was good for you. Had my parents educated me on healthy eating i would think differently. I heard how bad it was for me at age 14 but i figured OMG shut up.. its McDonalds and ive loved it since i was a kid.. why think differently of it now? Common sense told me later when i saw these fat asses in school have a hard time climbing the stairs made me go into an anorexic period of my life.. And now i try to eat alot healthier.. but think.. why at age 14 suddenly change my eating habits though someone warned me?

Why a black man change his view on something so racist when all his life he was taught it was something to be proud of.. a symbol of his home and community?
 
Cher...just no. You are...you have...such obstinacy.

I think that's all I really need to say. Other than you're incorrect and insulting a hell of a lot of people, white and black (self-loathing? Who are you to say that...?)
 
Time to play Marley, and post some questions.
Naw, just two:

How many southerners who fought for the Confederacy owned slaves?
How many black slaves were owned by other blacks?



I'll give you a tidbit for that last question: the majority of black slaves in Charleston were not owned by white men.


The first question addresses the fact that even to the South, the war wasn't about slavery.
The first and second both address the misconceptions about being white in the south.

Cher...instead of having a dialogue here in the forums or even attempting to answer Kuli's questions....you keep posting the same narrow-minded message over and over again. Expand your horizons, open your eyes, absorb...
 
I am expanding my horizons and i'm realizing that racism is more alive then I thought. Many blacks today live in bad neighborhoods and dont wanna help themselves because white america puts them down and wants them to stay at the bottom.. Its out of fear.

I'm sorry but nothing will change the fact that its a symbol of racism.. to some its a symbol of home or "heritage" (A southern state is still in the usa.. how is that a heritage but whatever.. ) Due to not being fully informed of the history behind it Nothing will change just my opinion.. but what the facts remain as. It was to keep slaves.. no official rule or piece of history has changed its official meaning.
 
I am expanding my horizons and i'm realizing that racism is more alive then I thought. Many blacks today live in bad neighborhoods and dont wanna help themselves because white america puts them down and wants them to stay at the bottom.. Its out of fear.

I'm sorry but nothing will change the fact that its a symbol of racism.. to some its a symbol of home or "heritage" (A southern state is still in the usa.. how is that a heritage but whatever.. ) Due to not being fully informed of the history behind it Nothing will change just my opinion.. but what the facts remain as. It was to keep slaves.. no official rule or piece of history has changed its official meaning.

Cher, I'm skipping your restatement of things you've been shown are wrong, and also in passing merely noting that you haven't bothered to address the questions I posted... and get a little educated.

It is a symbol of racism, yes. But it's also a symbol of a culture that had a certain grace and elegance the U.S. has never seen again, a symbol of standing up against strangers who want to run (or ruin) your home, a symbol of having fought for your home against invaders who wanted to burn it down, a symbol of having chosen to stand by your white neighbor and fight for your common home, and more. Expanding your horizons means recognizing that simplistic, one-dimensional answers to things is something done by the intellectually lazy, oft on behalf of the ignorant.

On the matter of heritage: California was arguably never quite its own nation, but there's still a sense of heritage of the "Bear Republic"; Texas was its own nation only briefly, but when many Texans say "the Lone Star State", by "state" they mean closer to "sovereign nation" than anything else; "New England" has never been anything but a regional designation, but I have relatives there who would shed blood over the notion that it's merely a label, in defense of a New England culture and heritage; people along the Mississippi share a heritage festooned with steamboats, anchored by the river....
I could go on, but the fact is that any time there's a shared identity, of whatever sort, however briefly, it can be seized on by people, can stir loyalty and pride, and even if they have to be invented after the fact, it can inspire a culture. In short, any shared identity can produce a heritage. Sharing another identity with someone else won't eliminate that heritage.


You haven't bothered to guess, but I'll give the answer here: that black university history major who knew far more about all this than you could dream of flew a Confederate battle flag for several reasons, but partly because it totally pissed off the redneck latent racists in his fraternity (from Alabama, Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, and Michigan, among those I can recall). Quite deliberately he obtained one larger than the ones some of them flew on their 4WD trucks -- and some of them flew it partly out of reasons you've been asserting are universal, and he knew that, and purposefully bought his own flag.
He could sit and recite the history of the "glorious South" better than the ones who clung to that heritage, he could list more atrocities to blacks than were ever set out during "Black History Week" on campus; his ancestors included slaves, blacks who had no slavery in their family tree (yes, there were free blacks in America with no slave ancestors), and black slave-owners -- and blacks who had fought for the south, not having even been slaves.
Are you going to try to tell me he suffered from self-loathing? Excrementum!
This guy could sit there and tell his fraternity brothers that his ancestors had suffered both under and for that flag -- and, btw, what had theirs been doing? His ancestors had shed blood as both victims and heroes of that flag, and in his view, if anyone had a right to fly it, he did, because its history was his history, all the way around: he was inheritor of free, slave, and slave owner.
The amount of education and expanding of horizons he accomplished because he, as a black, flew that flag, was beyond astonishment. He could make tough rednecks cry because he sat, by his heritage, on all sides of the issue (he claimed black relatives/ancestors who fought for the Union, as well), and could appreciate and value it all. He wasn't ashamed of his slave heritage, but took pride that those ancestors had survived it; he wasn't ashamed of his slave-owner heritage, either, or his anti-slavery heritage. He didn't have to put anyone down to express his pride, either.
And when he and others took their trucks out mudding, battle banners snapping smartly, and whites he and his brothers didn't know cursed at him for that flag, he'd give a yell, "Eat my dust!" -- because he wasn't ashamed of anything, embarrassed by anything, or angry at anything.

In passing, his heritage yields an answer to one of my history questions: in 1860, over two-thirds of all black slaves in Charleston were owned not just by blacks, but by black women. His great-something grandmother was one of them.
 
It is a symbol of racism, yes. But it's also a symbol of a culture that had a certain grace and elegance the U.S. has never seen again, a symbol of standing up against strangers who want to run (or ruin) your home, a symbol of having fought for your home against invaders who wanted to burn it down, a symbol of having chosen to stand by your white neighbor and fight for your common home, and more.

I had read everything you said.. you make some very valid points.

But it has nothing to do with standing up.. well maybe it did.. to defend a nation of slavery. Had there been no slavery issue.. would they have rebelled still or just be satisfied? So as the south seceded.. we were supposed to just let them go because they didn't agree with justice? It's one thing if they had been taxed heavily or treated unfairly such as not receiving essential living supplies. Then more reason to secede. They wanted the right to treat living humans as animals and property. It depends on what they stood up for. If the reasons i gave had been in history.. i would say stand up and fight for your rights. But to enslave another human and take their dignity away.. to say you are standing up for your home and community to have the right to discriminate... thats a different story.

The north started burning down homes because the south would not listen and intended to keep slavery. Like i said.. had there been no slavery issue.. there would have been no seperation and a reason to "stand up and fight"
 
Actually, some historians have argued that underlying tensions between the North and the South, culture, direction for the country, and power struggles unrelated to slavery, would all have likely caused the Civil War to occur even had there not been slavery involved, it just would have taken longer before it happened and, in that time, some things could have happened to decrease tensions.

So, since you asked...though I don't know why I bothered answering, you don't answer anyone else's questions or seem to listen to anyone...
 
Actually, some historians have argued that underlying tensions between the North and the South, culture, direction for the country, and power struggles unrelated to slavery, would all have likely caused the Civil War to occur even had there not been slavery involved, it just would have taken longer before it happened and, in that time, some things could have happened to decrease tensions.

that seems perfectly locigal to me. there were tensions between the north and south even before the revolution, and slavery had little or nothing to do with it. it was mostly economic and religious differences. and even today, over 140 years after slavery was abolished, the north and south tend to disagree on a wide variety of political issues, not just civil rights. the south tends to be more isolationist, fiscally liberal, and in favor of small government.
 
I'm racking my brains to remember where, and can't think of it at all unless it was in something like Liberty magazine....
but I read an article which argued that if there hadn't been the Civil War, there would have been only very few differences in the country today. The ones I recall are:

1. a greater overall population, because all those soldiers who died would have lived, and reproduced
2. less discrimination against blacks, because slavery would have died quietly and without so much resentment
3. stronger states' rights, partly due to there never having been a civil rights movement
4. less powerful giant tobacco companies, because thousands of small tobacco farmers would be producing who aren't now, because no one inherited the land left by many tens of thousands of southern dead
5. Grant would never have been president; in fact we'd never have heard of him

There was something about Lincoln as well, but it didn't stick in my mind.
I really have my doubts about no civil rights movement, though, unless without the resentment the KKK never would have thrived.

And of course there wouldn't have been this battle flag, and I never would have met that rather eccentric but creative black university student.
 
Time to play Marley, and post some questions.
Naw, just two:

How many southerners who fought for the Confederacy owned slaves?
How many black slaves were owned by other blacks?



I'll give you a tidbit for that last question: the majority of black slaves in Charleston were not owned by white men.


The first question addresses the fact that even to the South, the war wasn't about slavery.
The first and second both address the misconceptions about being white in the south.

How many white people were held as slaves? How many whites were owned by blacks? How many white slaves were own by whites? Please don't try to muddy the waters by arguing about "degrees" of colour please. BTW what did you go to prison for and how long?
 
How many white people were held as slaves? How many whites were owned by blacks? How many white slaves were own by whites? Please don't try to muddy the waters by arguing about "degrees" of colour please. BTW what did you go to prison for and how long?

I'm not trying to "muddy the waters"; I'm pointing out that it isn't all cut and dried and simplistic.

Never been to prison; don't plan on it. Just jail, for "failure to appear", and for "providing alcohol to a minor". For the first, my attorney had told me my presence wasn't necessary, so I didn't go; for the second, I gave in and let a whiny nagging 16 y.o. have a beer to shut him up.
 
I'm not trying to "muddy the waters"; I'm pointing out that it isn't all cut and dried and simplistic.

Never been to prison; don't plan on it. Just jail, for "failure to appear", and for "providing alcohol to a minor". For the first, my attorney had told me my presence wasn't necessary, so I didn't go; for the second, I gave in and let a whiny nagging 16 y.o. have a beer to shut him up.
So, yes you are not mudding the waters. Perhaps you could tell me then how many white people were slaves in the pre Civil War days of the United States?:confused:
 
Interesting, but the overall impression from this is that these people were legally defined in the laws of the day as "black". This is why I asked the question. The reality is that if you were legally defined as one race you could be legally kept as a slave. If you were legally defined as another race you were not.
The same sorts of racial laws were kept here in Australia (minus the slavery) until the 1960's. These restricted the movement of aboriginal people, and the ability to vote for example. You may have been the equivalent of "mullatto", but in the eyes of the law you were not white, and not able to claim the same rights!
I would imagine this may be the reason so many people, especially black people, find the Confederate flag offensive. It is a symbol of a regime that could, quite legally define your race, despite what you looked like,despite who your father or mother were, despite what race you may or may not identify with. And if that race was "Black" you could legally be kept as a slave....​
 
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