**Official Final Debate Thread**

[Kulindahr]

And don't forget the atmosphere, quality, benefits, job satisfaction, freedom to change are better in small businesses. I would prolly never work for a place like Wal-Mart, I feel guilty shopping there. Yet when I didn't have a lot of money I was grateful they existed.

I shopped there yesterday. I munch light snacks instead of lunch most days, and given the choice between a month's supply from Safeway or from Walmart... well, it was kind of like the difference between last month's gas prices and last year's.

Was it he or the plumbing business that had 250-280,000 taxable income. I got the sense it was a business of several people.

They made so many references to it and McCain kept lying when he made them, I got confused myself.
One plumbing outfit here has a head plumber/owner, two associates, and a half dozen apprentice-whatever plumbers. From what I know of their rates, the sum of their annual incomes is around $450k - $540k. So a somewhat smaller business having a total of $250k - $280k seems right -- or a signifiacantly larger business might provide $250k/yr for the owner.

 

[Shafted]

Here's Todd in all his glory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpvPizuq4-Y

Way too many cut-aways for me to judge his intelligence based on a Fox News interview. He has to be capable of stringing together, at least, one complex sentence.

In any case, Greta is just terrible.

 

[Kulindahr]

And some people know that a bunch of people saying something doesn't mean it's true and a bunch of people doing something doesn't mean it's smart.

I know. McCain lies so often, but so many people believe him. He sat there and lied last night, even after he'd been given the truth. And people continue to idolize him.

 

[NickCole]

Lostlover^^

Editing stuff like that is what Josh Marshall is spending his time doing these days? Hmm. Impressive.

Well Todd Palin is good looking and charming. I've heard him talk without being edited and clearly Sarah didn't marry him for his brain. Not sure why it should matter to us.

Sure is interesting watching the Obama elitists ridicule people like Sarah and Todd Palin, and that Joe plumber guy, and all the others.

 

[TX-Beau]

Yeah, Greta VanSustren is the idiot there.

Is it just me, or does that come across like she’s just a little too “friendly”

 

[Shafted]

Lostlover^^

Editing stuff like that is what Josh Marshall is spending his time doing these days? Hmm. Impressive.

Well Todd Palin is good looking and charming. Clearly Sarah didn't marry him for his brain. Not sure why it should matter to us.

Sure is interesting watching the Obama elitists ridicule people like Sarah and Todd Palin, and that Joe plumber guy, and all the others.

Sarah Palin deserves ridicule. Todd and Joe Plumber seem like nice guys, though the former does come across as completely clueless.

 

[Kulindahr]

And key for me, it seemed as if Obama understood McCain's plans better than McCain understood Obama's or even his own, and played a smart defense with that knowledge.

I got that, too. McCain seemed like he had talking points, Obama spoke as though he actually knew and understood the information.

 

[NickCole]

And people continue to idolize him.

I've seen no indication that people idolize McCain.

That's Obama.

 

[Shafted]

I've seen no indication that people idolize McCain.

That's Obama.

Yeah, the McCain campaign tried to make us believe that, too, and it failed.

 

[TX-Beau]

I've seen no indication that people idolize McCain.

That's Obama.

Perhaps people find nothing about McCain to idolize.

Perhaps that’s why he’s losing.

No message, no plan, no leadership, no votes.


...BUT, BUT, BUT, McCain supporters are fair and blanced...

right.

 

[MystikWizard]

To Nick's credit, he's right. I haven't seen anyone on the Right that is thrilled with McCain. Sad.

 

[Kulindahr]

Perhaps people find nothing about McCain to idolize.

Perhaps that’s why he’s losing.

No message, no plan, no leadership, no votes.


...BUT, BUT, BUT, McCain supporters are fair and blanced...

right.

I have to disagree: McCain does have a plan, and leadership.
It's just that his plan is more war and less rights, and his leadership is undependable.

Oh -- message? Well, his ads tell a lot of lies, and he did himself in the debate last night.
Is that a message?

 

[Kulindahr]

To Nick's credit, he's right. I haven't seen anyone on the Right that is thrilled with McCain. Sad.

You guys haven't seen some of the clips where people are chanting his name, looking very much like 'evangelical' Pentecostal Christians in an ecstasy of rapture?

 

[NickCole]

Perhaps people find nothing about McCain to idolize.

Perhaps that’s why he’s losing.

No message, no plan, no leadership, no votes.

Actually he has a lot of votes -- or anyway decent poll numbers, considering he's an old man running a pretty crappy campaign while Americans are sick and tired of Republicans and his opponent has billions of dollars and a phenominal Internet social network program and several MSM people with their own shows selling him every night. Should make you wonder why Obama isn't running landslide numbers.

As for idolizing politicians ... well I know you don't like hearing lessons from what I know so I'll let you find out for yourself. All I'll say is may God have mercy on our United States.

 

[TX-Beau]

I have to disagree: McCain does have a plan, and leadership.
It's just that his plan is more war and less rights, and his leadership is undependable.

Oh -- message? Well, his ads tell a lot of lies, and he did himself in the debate last night.
Is that a message?

Ok, I defer to your wisdom.

 

[MystikWizard]

You guys haven't seen some of the clips where people are chanting his name, looking very much like 'evangelical' Pentecostal Christians in an ecstasy of rapture?

McCain's supporters are simply supporting him because they don't want a Democrat, or Obama in particular, in the White House. All in all, they don't view him as a real conservative.

Lost posted this, but in case you missed it ... here they are in all their glory.

 

[NickCole]

To Nick's credit, he's right. I haven't seen anyone on the Right that is thrilled with McCain. Sad.

Considering the B-list GOP Primary lineup and lackluster support McCain has had from high profile Republicans (where have the Ann Coulters gone?), it almost seems like the GOP ceded 2008 to Democrats. But even with that, Obama didn't really pull ahead until he got a boost from the economy falling apart.

 

[Kulindahr]

I've seen that clip, Midnight. It was done specifically to show how some McCain supporters feel about Obama; it wasn't done to show how they feel about McCain. But there are also pieces out there showing ecstatic people chanting "JOHN - MAC - CAIN! JOHN - MAC - CAIN!"

After all,, he was a P.O.W.

 

[MystikWizard]

Considering the B-list GOP Primary lineup and lackluster support McCain has had from high profile Republicans (where have the Ann Coulters gone?), it almost seems like the GOP ceded 2008 to Democrats. But even with that, Obama didn't really pull ahead until he got a boost from the economy falling apart.

Well, I can't really say that they "ceded" 2008 to the Democrats. That was just the best crop they had to put out there.

When you have data saying that 2/3 Americans are upset by the War in Iraq and think it was not worth fighting ... and people like Dick Cheney say "so?" ... and the Republican voters simply fall in line with that "I don't give a damn what the rest of the country wants" mentality ... than this is going to be the result.

I will still say that Ron Paul was probably their best choice. Paul could have ran circles against Obama discussing the Economy. But Paul was against the War, and the Neocons didn't want any of that, so that put them between a rock and a hard place ... and they simply didn't want to acknowledge it.

So between Iraq, who the public is sick to death of, and the Economy ... and an unpopular Republican President ... people are just desperate for new leadership in Washington, and Obama and McCain are the only electable choices.

But I think the GOP was actually daring enough to see if they could get away with this a 2nd time (I don't count Bush's 1st term as one since 9/11 had not occurred and Iraq certainly didn't occur). And it cost them.

I've seen that clip, Midnight. It was done specifically to show how some McCain supporters feel about Obama; it wasn't done to show how they feel about McCain. But there are also pieces out there showing ecstatic people chanting "JOHN - MAC - CAIN! JOHN - MAC - CAIN!"

After all,, he was a P.O.W.

Well, that's true ... but you are always going to have supporters chanting their candidate's name. That doesn't mean they view their candidate as The Messiah. I certainly don't view Barack that way, and I'm not sure there is anyone on this forum that does view Barack in that fashion.

 

[Supernature]

Considering the B-list GOP Primary lineup and lackluster support McCain has had from high profile Republicans (where have the Ann Coulters gone?), it almost seems like the GOP ceded 2008 to Democrats. But even with that, Obama didn't really pull ahead until he got a boost from the economy falling apart.

Well there are a lot of factors that may be responsible for that. Among them:

-- The dubious accuracy of polls (as they poll pretty much the same pool and exclude cell phone users, new voters etc.)
-- The contrasting performances of the two candidates in the face of the Economy Crisis.
-- The Debates (which also occurred during this period) giving the electorate the chance to see the two candidates side by side.
-- The more time that goes by, the more the public gets to know Obama from his own statements as opposed to how his opponents have tried to define him
-- The simple fact that he is the first African-American candidate. Call me cynical, but if you swapped McCain and Obama so that McCain was the eloquent, cool, and measured one and Obama the erratic, negative, and apparently angry one, this race wouldn't even have been close.

Polls aside, the real measure of the electorates engagement is voter registration -- it's been record breaking for the Democrats. So it would be inaccurate to confuse your lack of enthusiasm with the rest of the electorate's.