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Official: The Communist Manifesto

Because Lenin didn't follow it. Had he read it with full insight he wouldn't have led a socialist revolution. And ignorance that keeps others from studying the origins of communism shows how dumb Americans can be. It's like people are afraid of being educated because they are too lazy. But they call socialists lazy....

Ah, so now anyone that disagrees with you must be a dumb lazy American. People malign communism because it doesn't work Kris. Lenin and Stalin were great devotees of Marx. Their theories were based on his, as was their revolution. Do yourself a favor and pick up a history book.

You don't need to devote life energy in understanding how something so complex was forced into a simplistic black and white distorted picture. You can read this and see WHY stupidity resulted in state capitalism in Russia as well as stupidity in America. The average American has a 3rd grade reading level. Proves my point.

No it doesn't. It proves that people like you don't know how to make an argument on the merits or downfall of communism because you can't see past your own bias.

If you are against something, you better have shit to back it up that is based on an educated decision formed by knowledge and understanding.
That's good advice. You should take it.
 
The average American has a 3rd grade reading level. Proves my point.


Kris, it would help your case if you'd avoid posting obvious falsehoods. Here's the one that jumped out at me in your last thread and again here: the claim that the average American has a third grade reading level. That's laughable.
I googled the matter and selected five sources more or less at random from the first page of results. What did I find? The average reading level in the U.S. is between 6th and 9th grade, depending on who you listen to.

This stands to reason: if you were right, something like 2/3 of Americans would be incapable of using the internet. Since nearly half use it for an hour a day, and nearly three quarters use it at least once a week, your notion is shot. Using a search engine requires higher than that third-grade level... just to read the results!

I think you're taking 'way too much on faith -- check things out, especially when they're so outrageous as this 'factoid'.
 
Capitalism is probably the best model for mankind as our animal instincts drive most of us to acquire territory (aka money). So the competition and greed that drives so many of us means that communism won't take place with most without force as in Cuba, China, etc. Of course Stalinism wasn't communism in the purest sense.

Here in the USA we've had such societies, held together by religion like the quasi communal Amish, the Amana Colonies in Iowa, the failed experiment or Robert Owen in New Harmony, Indiana.

Communism had its early impetus due to the savage Czarist pogroms of Jews in Russia. Some moved to Palestine to set up communist Kibbutzim or socialist Moshavim at the beginning of the 20th Century, the beginnings of the Zionist movement. I once spent a week at Kibbutz Metser adjoining the north border of the West Bank. Everyone ate in a common dining hall. Children of all ages lived together in dorms, went to school, and only saw their parents, staying with them in their little cottages over the Sabbath. Everyone either worked in agriculture or in some kibbutz shops, small factories. However, just before my visit a teenager had committed suicide so the smiles in "Utopia" seemed forced. One thing I liked about Kibbutz Metser was they were a peaceful bunch and had good relations with their Arab neighbors next door.
 
The downfall of Marx's arguments stems for a sociopolitical perspective which he beats around the bush (and many of his analysts point that out as the biggest flaw also). To imply no person/people has any special interests is dubious and the moment you don't allocate utility "justly", it ultimately collapses.
 
Communism is like a donkey and you can dress it as a horse but it'll still be a donkey. New ways need to be sought my friend not old. To develop a society and then look back at the ravings of some angry lunatic and seek to implement them is ridiculous. It won't go today in Europe or the USA because people don't want to ride a donkey.
 
Capitalism is probably the best model for mankind as our animal instincts drive most of us to acquire territory (aka money). So the competition and greed that drives so many of us means that communism won't take place with most without force as in Cuba, China, etc. Of course Stalinism wasn't communism in the purest sense.

Here in the USA we've had such societies, held together by religion like the quasi communal Amish, the Amana Colonies in Iowa, the failed experiment or Robert Owen in New Harmony, Indiana.

Communism had its early impetus due to the savage Czarist pogroms of Jews in Russia. Some moved to Palestine to set up communist Kibbutzim or socialist Moshavim at the beginning of the 20th Century, the beginnings of the Zionist movement. I once spent a week at Kibbutz Metser adjoining the north border of the West Bank. Everyone ate in a common dining hall. Children of all ages lived together in dorms, went to school, and only saw their parents, staying with them in their little cottages over the Sabbath. Everyone either worked in agriculture or in some kibbutz shops, small factories. However, just before my visit a teenager had committed suicide so the smiles in "Utopia" seemed forced. One thing I liked about Kibbutz Metser was they were a peaceful bunch and had good relations with their Arab neighbors next door.

This observation pleases, and encourages me.
 
This observation pleases, and encourages me.

I'll second that.

The kibbutzim were what I thought constituted the example of the only thing that could have saved communism in the Soviet Union: break it down into local communes, where everyone knew each other. Let people learn communism on a level where it can actually work.
 
Thank God for all the poor little electrons saved by not including paragraphs and all the eyeballs that were saved as they glazed over at the sight of all that screen-after-screen grey goo and moved on to something else.
 
You do realize that due to human nature, communism in its purist form is unobtainable...
It is just as much human nature to cooperate.Altruism and so on are just as hardwired genetically as reacting to one's environment in a violent or argressively competitive way.
 
I'll second that.

The kibbutzim were what I thought constituted the example of the only thing that could have saved communism in the Soviet Union: break it down into local communes, where everyone knew each other. Let people learn communism on a level where it can actually work.
Communism hadn't 'happened' to be saved.The original poster is correct in that regard.
To give any of the states which are described as 'communjst' credit for being so, is to make a fundamental error.
Even The American Secretary of State at the time of Kruschev's visit to the USA,John Foster Dulles acknowledged that what russia had was a system of 'state Capitalism'.
Lenin himself said that, 'State Capitalism would be a step forward for us'.
Russia was a backward feudal society which had not moved sufficiently along the capitalist road ,so it was inevitable that it would exercise government controlled development of its economy along state capitalist lines,. Any economy reverts to this when things spiral out of of control.
 
But these Socialist and Communist publications contain also a critical element. They attack every principle of existing society. Hence they are full of the most valuable materials for the enlightenment of the working class.
The Legal Small Print 24
The practical measures proposed in them -- such as the abolition of the distinction between town and country, of the family, of the carrying on of industries for the account of private individuals, and of the wage system, the proclamation of social harmony, the conversion of the functions of the State into a mere superintendence of production, all these proposals, point solely to the disappearance of class antagonisms which were, at that time, only just cropping up, and which, in these publications, are recognised in their earliest, indistinct and undefined forms only. These proposals, therefore, are of a purely Utopian character.
The significance of Critical-Utopian Socialism and Communism bears an inverse relation to historical development. In proportion as the modern class struggle develops and takes definite shape, this fantastic standing apart from the contest, these fantastic attacks on it, lose all practical value and all theoretical justification. Therefore, although the originators of these systems were, in many respects, revolutionary, their disciples have, in every case, formed mere reactionary sects. They hold fast by the original views of their masters, in opposition to the progressive historical development of the proletariat. They, therefore, endeavour, and that consistently, to deaden the class struggle and to reconcile the class antagonisms. They still dream of experimental realisation of their social Utopias, of founding isolated "phalansteres," of establishing "Home Colonies," of setting up a "Little Icaria" -- duodecimo editions of the New Jerusalem -- and to realise all these castles in the air, they are compelled to appeal to the feelings and purses of the bourgeois. By degrees they sink into the category of the reactionary conservative Socialists depicted above, differing from these only by more systematic pedantry, and by their fanatical and superstitious belief in the miraculous effects of their social science.
They, therefore, violently oppose all political action on the part of the working class; such action, according to them, can only result from blind unbelief in the new Gospel.
The Owenites in England, and the Fourierists in France, respectively, oppose the Chartists and the Reformistes.
IV. POSITION OF THE COMMUNISTS IN RELATION TO THE VARIOUS EXISTING OPPOSITION PARTIES
Section II has made clear the relations of the Communists to the existing working-class parties, such as the Chartists in England and the Agrarian Reformers in America.
The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement. In France the Communists ally themselves with the Social-Democrats, against the conservative and radical bourgeoisie, reserving, however, the right to take up a critical position in regard to phrases and illusions traditionally handed down from the great Revolution.
In Switzerland they support the Radicals, without losing sight of the fact that this party consists of antagonistic elements, partly of Democratic Socialists, in the French sense, partly of radical bourgeois.
In Poland they support the party that insists on an agrarian revolution as the prime condition for national emancipation, that party which fomented the insurrection of Cracow in 1846.
In Germany they fight with the bourgeoisie whenever it acts in a revolutionary way, against the absolute monarchy, the feudal squirearchy, and the petty bourgeoisie.
But they never cease, for a single instant, to instil into the working class the clearest possible recognition of the hostile antagonism between bourgeoisie and proletariat, in order that the German workers may straightaway use, as so many weapons against the bourgeoisie, the social and political conditions that the bourgeoisie must necessarily introduce along with its supremacy, and in order that, after the fall of the
The Legal Small Print 25
reactionary classes in Germany, the fight against the bourgeoisie itself may immediately begin.
The Communists turn their attention chiefly to Germany, because that country is on the eve of a bourgeois revolution that is bound to be carried out under more advanced conditions of European civilisation, and with a much more developed proletariat, than that of England was in the seventeenth, and of France in the eighteenth century, and because the bourgeois revolution in Germany will be but the prelude to an immediately following proletarian revolution.
In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.
In all these movements they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.
Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!
This is way too much to post.My eyes glazed over and I know it all by heart. :-)
If you are a member of the World Socialist Movement there are any amount of short pieces and links you could point to on the worldsocialism.org site,such as 'what is socialism on the front page.
Indeed members of the WSM pointed out at the time of the Russian revolution why it couldn't be called communist while giving Lenin credit for at least stopping the war (WW1)with the Kaiser.
 
Actually, a number of groups have tried it. The problem is that it breaks down after a certain critical mass. Also, it only works as long the people involved are essentially robots, with limited choices; once any kind of personality is injected into it, it simply falls apart.

So if you like vanilla, and only vanilla, it works. Any additional flavor makes it unworkable...

RG

The fact that groups tried it is the reason it failed. A country trying to attempt communism or socialism is like a 5 year old attempting to drive a car.
 
The fact that groups tried it is the reason it failed. A country trying to attempt communism or socialism is like a 5 year old attempting to drive a car.

If it can't be tried, and won't work because it's tried, it's trash already. You're not going to convince anyone to believe in political magic, that this utopia will happen because no one even tried.
 
If it can't be tried, and won't work because it's tried, it's trash already. You're not going to convince anyone to believe in political magic, that this utopia will happen because no one even tried.

Btw, I've never brought up the notion of political magic. That was your interpretation.

Omg, the concept of it STILL hasn't sunk into anyone. If someone attempts a direct revolution, it will end up in failure due to the current mentality of our current society. Other socialists at the time of Marx's lifetime were often confused by Marx's concept. Many socialists used aggressive means for an instantaneous revolution and overthrow of Capitalism, which Marx warned will always lead to absolute failure due to the greedy nature of current society. During his lifetime many communists felt FRUSTRATED by Marx who disagreed with EVERY attempted revolution and disruptive social chaos caused by radical liberals.

Humans are less greedy and have more of a sense of empathy then society has in past social structures because of progressive ideas and events. Knowledge and intelligence is structured differently then it was in the age of feudalism. For example, humans discovered the basics of fire, the wheel, and language development in primitive communism, the first era of human society. As society grew, slavery developed as a social structure and also became the first class based system. In feudalism, people thought the cure for any terminal illness was wrapping up a person in a big red blanket and then being touched by a king's hand. The mentality of a king having so much power was a distorted mentality but people still never thought the feudal system would ever be overthrown. Like past respect for kings, we have a divine respect for our "Nation" and say the pledge of allegiance like a machine though the USA is another oppressive ruler equivalent to that of a King. Several direct revolutions were attempted until slowly people realized that organized government would be the key in establishing capitalism. Feudal-Socialism led by the Capitalists in revolution eventually led to the world as we know as today.

Capitalism contains elements of every past epoch as our current structure. Today, the past dominates our present. The concept of exploiting others for profit, survival and personal gain leads to incivility. This is why the employer and laborer relationship leads to disruptive social friction because one class has power over the other. If you can't understand the philosophical statement "Human intelligence will allow present to dominate the past" you will not understand the manifesto itself. If you do not posses a knowledgeable background in sociology and philosophy, reading the manifesto will just give you a simplistic and distorted understanding. Lenin could never escape the mental ailments of Capitalism ingrained in the mind, for money in our society intoxicates our minds so we naturally have the "If we can't have it now then FUCK IT" mentality. If people just don't grasp certain philosophical terms, they can not base an opinion on why communism will never work because its not a question of it "being able to work."
 
Omg, the concept of it STILL hasn't sunk into anyone. If someone attempts a direct revolution, it will end up in failure due to the current mentality of our current society. Other socialists at the time of Marx's lifetime were often confused by Marx's concept. Many socialists used aggressive means for an instantaneous revolution and overthrow of Capitalism, which Marx warned will always lead to absolute failure due to the greedy nature of current society. During his lifetime many communists felt FRUSTRATED by Marx who disagreed with EVERY attempted revolution and disruptive social chaos caused by radical liberals.

Humans are less greedy and have more of a sense of empathy then society has in past social structures because of progressive ideas and events. Knowledge and intelligence is structured differently then it was in the age of feudalism. For example, humans discovered the basics of fire, the wheel, and language development in primitive communism, the first era of human society. As society grew, slavery developed as a social structure and also became the first class based system. In feudalism, people thought the cure for any terminal illness was wrapping up a person in a big red blanket and then being touched by a king's hand. The mentality of a king having so much power was a distorted mentality but people still never thought the feudal system would ever be overthrown. Several direct revolutions were attempted until slowly people realized that organized government would be the key in establishing capitalism. Feudal-Socialism led by the Capitalists in revolution eventually led to the world as we know as today.

Capitalism contains elements of every past epochs as our current structure. Today, the past dominates our present. The concept of exploiting others for profit, survival and personal gain leads to incivility. If you can't understand the philosophical statement "Human intelligence will allow present to dominate the past" you will not understand the manifesto itself. If you do not posses a knowledgeable background in sociology and philosophy, reading the manifesto will just give you a simplistic understanding. Money in our society intoxicates our minds so we naturally have the "If we can't have it now then FUCK IT" mentality. If people just don't grasp certain philosophical terms, they can not base an opinion on why communism will never work because its not a question of it "being able to work."

What a crock. You're trying to rewrite not only what communism is, but how its implemented. You have neither the wisdom nor the knowledge to do such a thing.
 
Omg, the concept of it STILL hasn't sunk into anyone. If someone attempts a direct revolution, it will end up in failure due to the current mentality of our current society. Other socialists at the time of Marx's lifetime were often confused by Marx's concept. Many socialists used aggressive means for an instantaneous revolution and overthrow of Capitalism, which Marx warned will always lead to absolute failure due to the greedy nature of current society. During his lifetime many communists felt FRUSTRATED by Marx who disagreed with EVERY attempted revolution and disruptive social chaos caused by radical liberals.

Humans are less greedy and have more of a sense of empathy then society has in past social structures because of progressive ideas and events. Knowledge and intelligence is structured differently then it was in the age of feudalism. For example, humans discovered the basics of fire, the wheel, and language development in primitive communism, the first era of human society. As society grew, slavery developed as a social structure and also became the first class based system. In feudalism, people thought the cure for any terminal illness was wrapping up a person in a big red blanket and then being touched by a king's hand. The mentality of a king having so much power was a distorted mentality but people still never thought the feudal system would ever be overthrown. Several direct revolutions were attempted until slowly people realized that organized government would be the key in establishing capitalism. Feudal-Socialism led by the Capitalists in revolution eventually led to the world as we know as today.

Capitalism contains elements of every past epochs as our current structure. Today, the past dominates our present. The concept of exploiting others for profit, survival and personal gain leads to incivility. If you can't understand the philosophical statement "Human intelligence will allow present to dominate the past" you will not understand the manifesto itself. If you do not posses a knowledgeable background in sociology and philosophy, reading the manifesto will just give you a simplistic and distorted understanding. Lenin could never escape the mental ailments of Capitalism ingrained in the mind, for money in our society intoxicates our minds so we naturally have the "If we can't have it now then FUCK IT" mentality. If people just don't grasp certain philosophical terms, they can not base an opinion on why communism will never work because its not a question of it "being able to work."

So basically us poor primitive capitalists just haven't evolved enough to understand and embrace communism.
 
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