Official: The Communist Manifesto

[KrisHawkXXX]

Communism hadn't 'happened' to be saved.The original poster is correct in that regard.
To give any of the states which are described as 'communjst' credit for being so, is to make a fundamental error.
Even The American Secretary of State at the time of Kruschev's visit to the USA,John Foster Dulles acknowledged that what russia had was a system of 'state Capitalism'.
Lenin himself said that, 'State Capitalism would be a step forward for us'.
Russia was a backward feudal society which had not moved sufficiently along the capitalist road ,so it was inevitable that it would exercise government controlled development of its economy along state capitalist lines,. Any economy reverts to this when things spiral out of of control.

THANK YOU. The most intelligent response I've heard and from it sounds like, you read and see things outside the box. I hope we have more like you that think this way as time goes on.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

So basically us poor primitive capitalists just haven't evolved enough to understand and embrace communism.

I sense some rhetoric in your statement and the use of a defense mechanism being subconsciously felt, but you need not worry. Bourgeoisie-Socialism will come before communism, and money elements will still exist as the slow process of borders and nations "falling" will occur. The proletariat in each nation will slowly revolutionize in its own way depending on their circumstance before banding together in socializing with the world as a whole. The oppressed class (laborers which today include YOU) are the key to social change.

The Russian civilians were just led to "try" something. They never revolutionized with the build-up of exchanged intellectual ideas and past current events. Desperation due to poverty can lead to impulsive beliefs and distorted concepts.

You have to let Capitalism run its course. I don't know how to say this in a nice way, but basically people are currently too stupid to understand a communal mentality. You can't expect a 14 year old that lives in a broken home to understand a more mature and complex set of social awareness and skills. Because that is where society is at currently as a whole. The disturbed adolescent thinks they know all, hence why we have so many republicans and conservative thinkers to this day. Conservatives halts progressive change to keep society "stuck" in the same way of thinking. Nothing good comes from conservatism. Its not about CONSERVING money its about CONSERVING old and outdated ways of thinking.

BTW It's smarter to say "I can accept I don't know everything about the development of society as a science in terms of psychology" rather then "I Know what my Text book tells me and I'm sure communism will never work."

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

What a crock. You're trying to rewrite not only what communism is, but how its implemented. You have neither the wisdom nor the knowledge to do such a thing.

"What A Crock" shows an aggressive tone in your wording, why is that necessary?

I never stated how it could be implemented because it can't be implemented. I am not rewriting what communism is. When did I ever rewrite the concept of social development? I don't believe I have the wisdom to rewrite the way society evolves, for that is impossible nor would I wish to acquire such an irrational and impossible ideology. You are my same age range, so what set of ideas leads you to believe you are more informed? I am not assuming I am more informed then you, for one human being can not posses the entire knowledge of society alone.

PS why is there CONSTANT aggression towards those with a liberal mentality? Your tone greatly reminds me of Ann Coulter.

Marx nor Engels would have ever considered China or the USSR to be communist. Nor would he label Obama a socialist as retarded red necks do today.

Republican conservatives intend to conserve old ways of thinking. They are pro-business and finance, so they must disrupt any social change. They prey on the fear of others using religion. Why would they want the laborers to go on strike or rebel against them? Its money that pays for education in capitalism, so the education you are taught is distorted and filled with political sway.

 

[JB3]

"What A Crock" shows an aggressive tone in your wording, why is that necessary?

I never stated how it could be implemented because it can't be implemented. I am not rewriting what communism is. When did I ever rewrite the concept of social development? I don't believe I have the wisdom to rewrite the way society evolves, for that is impossible nor would I wish to acquire such an irrational and impossible ideology. You are my same age range, so what set of ideas leads you to believe you are more informed? I am not assuming I am more informed then you, for one human being can not posses the entire knowledge of society alone.

PS why is there CONSTANT aggression towards those with a liberal mentality? Your tone greatly reminds me of Ann Coulter.

Marx nor Engels would have ever considered China or the USSR to be communist. Nor would he label Obama a socialist as retarded red necks do today.

Republican conservatives intend to conserve old ways of thinking. They are pro-business and finance, so they must disrupt any social change. They prey on the fear of others using religion. Why would they want the laborers to go on strike or rebel against them? Its money that pays for education in capitalism, so the education you are taught is distorted and filled with political sway.

If there is an aggressive tone it is for the reasons I've mentioned to you several times before. Your posts show limited understanding of communism and capitalism, a lack of depth in thinking, and a general lack of knowledge of the subjects you claim to know so much about. In every post you attempt to define communism and socialism as things that they are not, and you malign capitalism based on a wholly flawed understanding of that system. Others such as Kulindahr have attempted to show you where your deficiencies lie, and how to remedy them, but you have refused to accept that you are not the arbiter of all that is true about capitalism, and that there are others that know more about it than you. In every post and thread you put together it is the same old mistakes, and the same old material drawn from your well-worn book of 'knowledge'.

Oh, and you use republican and conservative as if they are the same thing. I'll just add that to the list of things that you don't understand.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

If there is an aggressive tone it is for the reasons I've mentioned to you several times before.

There is no need for aggression. I keep rebounding with MORE information then I used to. I can provide links with literature that contains FIRST HAND knowledge. Which first hand sources on communism would you like to share?

Your posts show limited understanding of communism and capitalism, a lack of depth in thinking, and a general lack of knowledge of the subjects you claim to know so much about.

My posts show quite the opposite. You state that I lack any knowledge but never state why and insist I am wrong after sharing first hand resources such as the manifesto. I've given links to socialist organizations that condemn today's false conceptions such as yours. Why is it that "I" must be mistaken? I have brought forth the sources to back up things I talk about?

In every post you attempt to define communism and socialism as things that they are not, and you malign capitalism based on a wholly flawed understanding of that system.

Others such as Kulindahr have attempted to show you where your deficiencies lie, and how to remedy them, but you have refused to accept that you are not the arbiter of all that is true about capitalism, and that there are others that know more about it than you. In every post and thread you put together it is the same old mistakes, and the same old material drawn from your well-worn book of 'knowledge'.

I just read resources from the 1800's and interpret them from a philosophical perspective an open mind. My views are very close to those of most widely recognized socialist groups and organizations, yet you claim I am dumb because I have resources and statements that contain substance, which yours do not. Your defense is that I am simply wrong.

Oh, and you use republican and conservative as if they are the same thing. I'll just add that to the list of things that you don't understand.

I said republican conservatives, which used republican in an adjective form not noun.

 

[Stardreamer]

I sense some rhetoric in your statement and the use of a defense mechanism being subconsciously felt, ....

I don't know how to say this in a nice way, but basically people are currently too stupid to understand a communal mentality. You can't expect a 14 year old that lives in a broken home to understand a more mature and complex set of social awareness and skills. Because that is where society is at currently as a whole. The disturbed adolescent thinks they know all, hence why we have so many republicans and conservative thinkers to this day. Conservatives halts progressive change to keep society "stuck" in the same way of thinking. Nothing good comes from conservatism. Its not about CONSERVING money its about CONSERVING old and outdated ways of thinking.

This is exactly what I just said in a wordier fashion so why is it rhetoric when I say it but not when you do?

BTW It's smarter to say "I can accept I don't know everything about the development of society as a science in terms of psychology" rather then "I Know what my Text book tells me and I'm sure communism will never work."

I can accept I don't know everything, that has never been my problem though I will admit to suffering sometimes to male answer syndrome but I don't say that communism will in the end not work because of any text book but just by having spent 5 decades living among Humans and having a good idea how they work. Perhaps you should apply this logic to yourself after all you are the one who is telling us that all the answers lies in a single text and we're just too simple to understand it.

 

[Jack Springer]

Images of people in Russia who didn't agree with Communism.

The following table is in MILLIONS. It's not utopia. 61 Million people murdered in Russia.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Going into Devil's Advocate role for a sec: Jack Springer, that was actually "socialist" Russia. Although Stalin called it a "communist" country, it wasn't quite that. The little detail that you had one guy and his cronies calling the shots is generally considered the tip-off. Not saying that it wasn't a tragedy, just that it wasn't a "communist"-based one....

RG

 

[Jack Springer]

Going into Devil's Advocate role for a sec: Jack Springer, that was actually "socialist" Russia. Although Stalin called it a "communist" country, it wasn't quite that. The little detail that you had one guy and his cronies calling the shots is generally considered the tip-off. Not saying that it wasn't a tragedy, just that it wasn't a "communist"-based one....

RG

Actually RobinGoodfellow, Russia was (is?) a dictatorship. Plan and simple communism does not work.

Name a communist country that didn't have a dictator?

Can't be Cuba, China, Russia, Yugoslavia, Poland, North Korea, etc.

Israel has dabbled in communism. If you haven't seen the movie Reds with Warren Beatty. You might rent it.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

This is exactly what I just said in a wordier fashion so why is it rhetoric when I say it but not when you do?



I can accept I don't know everything, that has never been my problem though I will admit to suffering sometimes to male answer syndrome but I don't say that communism will in the end not work because of any text book but just by having spent 5 decades living among Humans and having a good idea how they work. Perhaps you should apply this logic to yourself after all you are the one who is telling us that all the answers lies in a single text and we're just too simple to understand it.

5 decades to us seems like a long time hon. To the life of society, it's simply a mere 2 years. Have you ever heard that the 10 years to earth's time is nothing but 10 seconds? Society evolves at such a slow pace that 5 decades seems like eternity. Nobody can prove why communism is NOT inevitable. However, minor social changes have taken effect in terms of operation and regulations. I do not believe I know all, for that would be hypocritical of me. I have always applied the same logic when addressing social and philosophical concepts to others. I know I am part of the proletariat as are you. I have no more power then you, and you have no more power then me. Capital is nothing but a social power and a mentally ill one. None of us posses any capital, we must purchase from those that own the Capital at their fixed price. We obtain jobs from the Capitalists, with wages that are fixed themselves.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Actually RobinGoodfellow, Russia was (is?) a dictatorship. Plan and simple communism does not work.

Name a communist country that didn't have a dictator?

Can't be Cuba, China, Russia, Yugoslavia, Poland, North Korea, etc.

Israel has dabbled in communism. If you haven't seen the movie Reds with Warren Beatty. You might rent it.

Can you please stop calling those nations communists because none of them are or ever were. It's like you don't pick up certain words. If you could pick up false facts when you read out of text books growing up, you can pick up the correct information that wasn't paid for by the US government and other Capitalists. Why would a capitalist trying to earn a profit publish knowledge to children that would overthrow their practice as so?

Yes Stalin was a dictator, but do you not think the USA acts a dictator to the the world? Act as an antagonist and a Capitalist on a global scale? THE USA acts as one giant Capitalist that manipulates and exploits the entire market and other nations for its sole profit.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Can you please stop calling those nations communists because none of them are or ever were. It's like you don't pick up certain words. If you could pick up false facts when you read out of text books growing up, you can pick up the correct information that wasn't paid for by the US government and other Capitalists. Why would a capitalist trying to earn a profit publish knowledge to children that would overthrow their practice as so?

Why are you yelling at me...?

Yes Stalin was a dictator, but do you not think the USA acts a dictator to the the world? Act as an antagonist and a Capitalist on a global scale? THE USA acts as one giant Capitalist that manipulates and exploits the entire market and other nations for its sole profit.

See, it's this problem with history that shows why you need to pay attention. Every single time that the US has tried to stay isolationist, we get dragged back in. See, thanks to us, other countries don't need to pay for their own armies; they just call in the US. On the other hand, we help them to do precisely what the want, and we're supposed to do it with absolutely nothing from the situation. Yet, if we even mention that we want another country to do the same, we get yelled at for being capitalist swine.

Weird how that works, huh?

RG

 

[FanofFiction]

Wow. We certainly have a true believer here. And I think it's great that you have such a strong and dedicated political sentiment.

Just a couple of things though. One, you are likely infringing on the copyright of the publication by posting so much of it here on a free forum. I know, it seems crazy that the book on freedom and lack of ownership doesn't not actually function as such. But I fearful you and JUB may get in trouble for copyright infringment.

Second, scholars debate all the time on Marx's true idea of communism. You see, he changed it himself with his later publications which were free of Ingels' input. So even Marx himself didn't totally agree with the Manifesto...

Nobody will ever agree on what form of communism is the right one. Just as many people do not agree on which version of democracy is the best one. Communism, anarchy, socialism, communism all have to meld to fit the demands of the times and location.

Third, I do think there are some really great aspects to communism but I prefer democracy. A strong democracy with a series of socialist safeguards to protect the weak.

 

[Jack Springer]

Can you please stop calling those nations communists because none of them are or ever were. It's like you don't pick up certain words. If you could pick up false facts when you read out of text books growing up, you can pick up the correct information that wasn't paid for by the US government and other Capitalists. Why would a capitalist trying to earn a profit publish knowledge to children that would overthrow their practice as so?

Yes Stalin was a dictator, but do you not think the USA acts a dictator to the the world? Act as an antagonist and a Capitalist on a global scale? THE USA acts as one giant Capitalist that manipulates and exploits the entire market and other nations for its sole profit.

I don't think you have a clue what communism is or what it does to people.

My opinion, you're just going through a rebellion phase, you'll soon grow out of it when you realize that you want something that costs money or try to have more than anyone else.

 

[JB3]

My posts show quite the opposite. You state that I lack any knowledge but never state why and insist I am wrong after sharing first hand resources such as the manifesto. I've given links to socialist organizations that condemn today's false conceptions such as yours. Why is it that "I" must be mistaken? I have brought forth the sources to back up things I talk about?

The moment you stated that capitalism was not an economic system you lost any credibility. I could go on listing every mistake and deficiency you've ever made/shown, but that would violate the CoC. Oh, and you HAVE been shown why multiple times in your previous threads. You've ignored the corrections you were given, however.

I just read resources from the 1800's and interpret them from a philosophical perspective an open mind. My views are very close to those of most widely recognized socialist groups and organizations, yet you claim I am dumb because I have resources and statements that contain substance, which yours do not. Your defense is that I am simply wrong.

You don't have an open mind. If you did you wouldn't be behaving the way you are. And you're right, your views are wrong. Did you ever consider that the socialists whose talking points you parrot might have their interpretation wrong? I've not heard any reputable scholar interpret the manifesto in any way, shape, or form close to what you claim it says. Whether or not your sources have substance is irrelevant if that substance is flawed.

I said republican conservatives, which used republican in an adjective form not noun.

The two are not related. And I don't buy that lame excuse.

 

[Stardreamer]

Well finished the first section today, a very nice summation of the transition of the world from feudalism to the industrial revolution. I find particularly interesting that if you look at the information from a slightly different perspective it really praises the effectiveness of Captialism but leaving that aside a couple of observations.

I found it rather interesting at one point that the authors while discussing the transition from the old forms to the new decry the transition of the educated professional classes (Doctors, Lawyers, etc.) from the elevated status they used to hold to just being part of the rest of working for a living. I thought that was the idea of Communism? Doing away with classes?

The observation about the growing power of the working classes brought about the shift from feudalism to capitalism is also of interest and I think Marx is right on that. But something Kris said to me above pointed out to me the misunderstanding here. He highlights how the he and I are JUST part of the Proletariat. Marx also focuses on this as well when noting the growing power of the proletariat leading up the suggestion I'm sure is coming in the later work how they will eventually realize their power and cast off the evil Capitalists. The problem as I see it is those who embrace this philosophy seem to at once praise the growing power of the working classes but want to still pretend those classes are powerless.

What is ignored is that capitalism allows movement between the classes. Its not that those specialty classes Marx is bemoaning the loss of were dragged down into the working stiff's levels, it was that the working stiffs were allowed to reach their level and thus the Middle Class was born.

I think I saw somewhere the suggestion that capitalism shrinks the middle class as the capitalist collect all the wealth, the classic 'Rich get richer and the poor get poorer line'. However the size of the middle class is typically an indicator of the health of a capitalist economy. An economy that is thriving and performing well will have a large and thriving middle class.

I think one of the things I'm going to find out as a dig into this further is part of what Marx misses is that the workers and capitalists are interchangeable in a healthy capitalist economy. The poor can work their way up into the middle class, the middle class can work up into the rich and vice verse depending on their own efforts.

So far in the first section, we have laid a pretty good foundation of why capitalism is far more effective than feudalism. Not much yet on why communism is more effective still as the communists claim.

As best I can tell true communism like true democracy only works in very very small groups. Not larger than a small village. Anything larger and group dynamics and personal ambitions will start undermining its effectiveness and when you start to get to the level of countries....its hopelessly inadequate.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
At the moment we have a shrinking middle class. I take it that stimulates people to believe Marx.

 

[Keelandson]

The poor can work their way up into the middle class, the middle class can work up into the rich and vice verse depending on their own efforts.

When the wealthy force the poor and middle class to pay for worldwide bank bailouts the size of Jupiter, and, repeatedly, multi-million-dollar bonuses to the architects of financial meltdowns worldwide, it's time to reconsider the ever-shrinking odds of anyone in the ever-expanding poor and ever-shrinking middle class of becoming wealthy. The odds approach those of lottery wins.

 

[Kulindahr]

When the wealthy force the poor and middle class to pay for worldwide bank bailouts the size of Jupiter, and, repeatedly, multi-million-dollar bonuses to the architects of financial meltdowns worldwide, it's time to reconsider the ever-shrinking odds of anyone in the ever-expanding poor and ever-shrinking middle class of becoming wealthy. The odds approach those of lottery wins.

Besides the fact that we have a trickle-up economy, which sends unearned wealth upward.

And I think the chances of winning a superball lottery are better.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

I don't think you have a clue what communism is or what it does to people.

My opinion, you're just going through a rebellion phase, you'll soon grow out of it when you realize that you want something that costs money or try to have more than anyone else.

I have had to save up money to buy something, have held multiple jobs, payed bills, rent, etc. I live my life in Capitalism, and no that I will always live in our current structure because that is the epoch in which I am affiliated with. It's nothing about a rebellion phase.