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Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

Age and foreskin status ...

  • Under 30 and cut

    Votes: 24 16.9%
  • Under 30 and uncut

    Votes: 21 14.8%
  • 30-50 and cut

    Votes: 36 25.4%
  • 30-50 and uncut

    Votes: 16 11.3%
  • Over 50 and cut

    Votes: 31 21.8%
  • Over 50 and uncut

    Votes: 14 9.9%
  • I can't tell whether I'm cut or uncut

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    142
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

Yet another enraging anti-uncut thread. #-o


If all males have to undergo this procedure, females should be circumcised at birth as well.



(*waits for furious replies* :twisted:)
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

i can honestly care less about cut or uncut

what i care about is making people think that a cosmetic surgical procedure can make them not be as vulnerable to HIV

thats ridiculous

the studies that say this are not founded in fact or sound scientific reason.

the truth is that it doesnt matter one way or the other
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

i can honestly care less about cut or uncut

what i care about is making people think that a cosmetic surgical procedure can make them not be as vulnerable to HIV

thats ridiculous

the studies that say this are not founded in fact or sound scientific reason.

the truth is that it doesnt matter one way or the other

But at least 2 separate studies have concluded that it is so.

The suggestion is that certain cells prevalent in the lining of the foreskin may be more susceptible to harboring the virus, which allows for infection.

Ergo... remove the cells, reduce chance of infection. The fact that removing those cells is usually a cosmetic procedure is neither here nor there in this case. I'm not sure why people think this is ridiculous.

You must remember that the data has been good enough to convince hundreds of people involved in policy-making to suggest this as a protective measure. It's not one guy saying it should be so - the data has been presented to other experts in the field, and consultants on the WHO's many panels, and this is the recommendation. These people are largely experts in study design - your point about the double blind study is valid, but there are many ways to skin a cat - and the studies would have been set up to yield meaningful results in the best way possible. Nobody wants to fund an expensive and time-consuming project only to find the data useless because somebody fucked up by not designing the experiment properly.

You have any idea how difficult it is to get a study approved through WHO? It's as stringent as those for the FDA, and it is no picnic. Any decent university and/or medical school involved in the studies would have had the protocols approved and reviewed and continuously re-evaluated by their own Ethics review boards, so I'm pretty sure we can assume that the data is good. Following the data collection and analysis prior to publication, there would be a peer review process, where more experts would pick at the thing until they were satisfied that the results were correctly interpreted. After all that, we make policy decisions.

This is science, boys and girls. This is how it's done these days. No more Josef Mengele doing his own thing willy-nilly to whomever he wants, everything has to be completely transparent and above board and, in this day of knee-jerk litigation and recompensation, absolutely water-tight.

I regard the bulk of info from many anti-circumcision organisations in the same way as I regard Britney Spears' mainstream pop trash. Their comment about the trials being stopped early reducing accuracy of data shows immediately that they have no concept of how a long-term large subject number study works. If you plan to give 5000 people a new drug, and 5000 people a placebo, and immediately after giving the first 1000 people the new drug you see an incremental increase in cure rate, it is deemed unethical to continue to give the others placebo when there is a clear advantage to the test compound. That is in every single drug study protocol. In this case, early analysis very clearly (and significantly, which is what's important) showed the circumcised group had lower infection incidence, and the trial was stopped.

More later, perhaps - I have an appointment which I am late for.

-d-
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

One more of those stupid thoughts.
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

if cells from the foreskin were deadly to the HIV virus the mega drug corps would be all over it and they would be paying alot of cash to men for the stuff

they are not because there is no scientific data that supports it is reasonable

alot

ALOT of scientific data shows that the foreskin issue is false
Circumcsion does not protect black South Africans
A total of 2585 males over the age of 15 were administered questionnaires and provided specimens for HIV testing. 916 (35.4%) of them said they were circumcised. HIV prevalence among circumcised males was 10.7% and among uncircumcised males was 12.1%, p = 0.9 [i.e. no statistical significance]. Blacks were less likely to be circumcised (28.8%) compared to other racial groups, 42.6%, p = 0.002. When the data was stratified by racial group, circumcised Blacks showed similar rates of HIV as uncircumcised Blacks, (OR: 0.8, p = 0.4) however other racial groups showed a strong protective effect, (OR: 0.3, p = 0.01) [or rather, a correlation]. When the data are further stratified by age of circumcision, there is a slight protective effect [correlation] between early circumcision and HIV among Blacks, OR: 0.7, p = 0.4.
Conclusion In general, circumcision offers slight protection. The effect is much stronger in other racial groups than in blacks. This racial difference cannot be explained by age of circumcision.
HIV and circumcision in South Africa
C.A. Connolly, O. Shisana, L. Simbayi, M. Colvin.
Poster at the XV AIDS Conference in Bangkok [MoPeC3491]
No protection among young South Africans
A 2001 study by Bertran Auvert et al (who also ran the 2005 Random Controlled Study) of HIV infection among youth in a South African mining town found it is associated with the Herpes simplex 2 virus
It was "a community-based, cross-sectional study" of a random sample of men (n = 723) and women (n = 784) living in a township in the Carletonville district of South Africa.
Risk factors associated with HIV were recorded by questionnaire and biological tests were performed on serum and urine.
It found that women were much more likely to have HIV (34%) than men (9%) and HSV-2 (53% vs 17%) Two thirds of the 24-year-old women had HIV. Of the men,
Circumcision
status
n
HIV+ Odds
ratio95% Confidence
interval No 498 (89.1%) 11.2% 1 Yes 61 (10.9%) 16.4% 1.6 0.7-3.2 Thus, the circumcised men in the study were more likely to be HIV+, but the result was not significant (the 95% CI straddles 1.0 - in real terms, 10 of the 61 circumcised men had HIV, three more than would be expected if they had the same rate as the intact men) But it certainly casts doubts on the claim that circumcision protects against HIV infection. Typically, Auvert expresses this cautiously, in terms of the prevailing mythology: "No protective effect of circumcision on HIV prevalence was shown."
No protection to insertive gay men:
"Our finding that 17% of homosexual men with newly acquired HIV infection reported insertive UAI [unprotected anal intercourse] as their highest risk activity suggests that insertive UAI is an important means of HIV transmission in this population. However, we found no association between circumcision status and infection by insertive UAI. In addition, men who had seroconverted despite no reported event of UAI were also no more likely to be uncircumcised. These data strongly suggest that the foreskin is not the main source of HIV infection in homosexual men who become infected by insertive UAI, and that other sites, such as the distal urethra, must be important in HIV infection.
"Our data showing that there is no difference in the circumcision status of men infected by receptive or insertive UAI, in a population with a circumcision prevalence of approximately 75%, suggests that circumcision is not strongly protective against HIV infection in homosexual men. Larger studies, preferably of prospective design, are needed to confirm the absence of a relationship between circumcision and HIV infection risk in gay men. In the meantime, educational messages to homosexual men should continue to emphasize that insertive anal sex is a high-risk activity for HIV transmission whether or not the insertive partner is circumcised."
- Grulich AE, Hendry O, Clark E, Kippax S, Kaldor JM.
Circumcision and male-to-male sexual transmission of HIV.
AIDS 2001 Jun 15;15(9):1188-1189.
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

God you guys are pathetic You always take it personally

Yes if everyone wore a condom it would be brilliant
They don't its that simple

Remember who we are talking about here 3rd world counties they cant exactly walk around to the local 7-11 and buy a pack of condoms now can they.

i think that before you get all defensive you should think that these people are trying to SAVE lives if doing this could save even 10% of those treated then i think it should be offered were talking tens of thousands even hundreds of thousands of Human Lives
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

naah

its not taken personally.. at least not by me... a few guys seem to think it may be, but there arent that many

its just important that young gay men who are reading this site know that if they are circumcised and dont use a condom they are likely to contract the HIV virus

thats important

i am as impersonal about the HIV virus as the virus is

i just dont want anyone to be needlessly infected due to misunderstanding the facts swirling around this issue
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

naah

its not taken personally.. at least not by me... a few guys seem to think it may be, but there arent that many

its just important that young gay men who are reading this site know that if they are circumcised and dont use a condom they are likely to contract the HIV virus

thats important

i am as impersonal about the HIV virus as the virus is

i just dont want anyone to be needlessly infected due to misunderstanding the facts swirling around this issue

god no the study was talking about in third world countries where unprotected sex happens alot and the spread of HIV is very bad at a near epidemic level
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

god no the study was talking about in third world countries where unprotected sex happens alot and the spread of HIV is very bad at a near epidemic level

and people that are reading this thread need to see that the studies in question are not considered sound by the medical establishment

there is only one way to remain hiv negative

have safe sex at all times and do not come into contact with a contaminated blood supply
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

One article says in headlines,
"The Jury is In". I read the articles in the NIH and other organizations the two that were linked for me.
Scientific evidence does not ever appear to mandate statewide or region circumcision
for hetrosexual and gay men in Africa where HIV is pandemic. It is not supported by enough study or clear scientific evidence.

The JURY IS NOT IN. The articles indicate that more studies need to be done before any implementation could possibly take place in sub-Saharan Africa. The point is that three areas of male penile study are in the mix: (1) the mucosal cells on the surface of the foreskin, may make uncircumcized men more suseptible to HIV infections,
(words like may and suggest abound), (2)the practice of poor hygiene, (remember it has been only about a century since baths were a Saturday night thing. More frequent bathing and good hygiene was not practiced here in the US until the early 1950s), and (3) the incidence of ulcerrative sexually transmitted inffections and STDs are in the mix (this
seems huge and complex to me).

The main actors in the cause for concern in Africa are hetrosexual men who are sleeping around. It probably has some homosexual males who are doing the same thing. But African and tribal culture and custom may make it difficult to discern or study this. Therefore to justify circumcision on the current information is only suggested. When it is clear, I hope they will permit us to weigh all the concerns, like good hygiene, role of sexually transmitted ulcerrative infections and diseases, and methods of safe sex. At one point the reports clearly indicate that this is a new paradigm. Well at this points it reminds me of the Third Reich. I will wait and I will not bully my uncut friends.
Shep+

 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

God you guys are pathetic You always take it personally

Yes if everyone wore a condom it would be brilliant
They don't its that simple

Remember who we are talking about here 3rd world counties they cant exactly walk around to the local 7-11 and buy a pack of condoms now can they.

This is where education comes in. Even those in third world countries are capable of understanding that risky sex leads to disease and death. Once they are armed with this knowledge, the responsibility is theirs to make right choices.
The widely held belief that people are incapable of denying themselves sexual gratification is really what is at question here. Are humans at the mercy of their sex drives or are they able to make well reasoned choices that could spare them misery and death?
Condoms may not be readily available to them, but does that mean they are destined to have unsafe sex? People in third world countries can understand about monogamous relationships, too, you know.
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

Yes, the overwhelming number of people
who died in this country from AIDS probably were cut.
We uncut ones did not cause the demise of them.
Shep+
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

and people that are reading this thread need to see that the studies in question are not considered sound by the medical establishment

there is only one way to remain hiv negative

have safe sex at all times and do not come into contact with a contaminated blood supply

The original article posted by the OP cites the WHO - that is a fairly impressive medical establishment, I would say, from my dealings with them.

One of your other posts above mentions foreskin cells being deadly to HIV - it's the other way around, as I understand it.

As for Sixthson's comments regarding arming people with knowlege - as I mentioned earlier, a misplaced word from an authority figure here in .za can undo any amount of education.

-d-
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

Ok.


Summary of this thread:

Circumcision is butchery and downright wrong.

End of story.


Moderators, please lock this thread. :p
 
Re: Circumcision urged in curbing AIDS spread

To whose point of view.

Mine. (and estimately 4.916.321.077 other people's)

Often performed without anesthesia, the practice of circumcision is ba[FONT=&quot]rbaric, primitive, torturous, mutilating and should have no place in ANY modern culture. In medi-eval times circumcision has been done to desensitize the penis and curb masturbation. But nowadays [/FONT]all the doctors and hospitals enforcing circumcision just try to milk money out of it. Not only do the parents have to pay for the surgery performed on their son, hospitals also get money from selling the f[FONT=&quot]oreskins, which net around $3.500 each on the tissue market (I bet no parent is ever told that!).

Si
nce
foreskin cells are [/FONT]suitable for culturing human embryonic stem cells [FONT=&quot]all sorts of products are being made from them including skin graft sheets for burn victims (ok, that might be a good thing, but still...) as well as pharma usage, cosmetics and experimentation. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Apparently one foreskin is able to produce enough skin tissue to cover up six football fields!


[/FONT]
Crashdown, millions are dying in Africa

Maybe this is god's way to get rid of all the sinners and non-believers... :rolleyes:
 
Very Very Informative about circumcision

Please Watch this video. This is the best informational video about circumcision.
Very full and very complete. Everything that is said here will make complete sense for those who are uncut. Cut guys will find this very interesting as well, though some points will not be clearly un-understandable by the means of 'you gotta experience it to get it'.

There is an example there to explain the difference if sensations on different parts of foreskin. Try to tickle inside your palm now try doing the same thing on the other side.. feel the difference? Now...difference between sensations of jerking off (or having sex) with and without foreskin is several times more than the difference between those to tickling sensations....

Watch the video.... maybe one day you will be able to talk somebody out of circumcising their baby.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1b_1186068852
 
Re: Very Very Informative about circumcision

I'll only watch it if it reconfirms my already-held beliefs.

Lex
 
Re: Very Very Informative about circumcision

I'd love to watch the vid, but I can't be bothered with all the registration nonsense.

Meanwhile .... :corn:
 
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