Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

[Apollo]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

yeah! Damn right!

I mean c'mon kids - what are a few bruises and cigarette burns - they'll heal, hell, you won't even remember them in a few years. Grow up and stop crying!


What. Utter. Drivel.

For the record, I am not circumcised, so I have no horse in this race so to speak.

I cannot see how an operation, which has no benefit to anybody, is in the best interests of the child (who cannot consent or refuse treatment).

Or does ethics not apply when religion/tradition/superstition/stupidity is involved?

Blackwolf - what are you opinions on female circumcision by some members of the Muslim faith? Is that acceptable?

If they want to circumsize their little muslim daughters than that is their right. If it cuts off their pleasure, than that isnt right. Everyone should be able to feel the pleasure of sex. Last time I checked, when I have sex or masturbate, I feel tons of pleasure.

And how do you compare cigarette burns and cuts to circumcision? It is a controlled procedure where the child feels no pain. They don't develop emotional issues normally, and they go on with their lives worrying about other things more important. Like you know, college, a career, how they are going to make a living, and for those really good people, about the starving people around the world.

They don't sit around crying about not having foreskin, that isn't anything special except some extra skin. It isn't like they are cutting off a organ.

If you are uncut, why are so radical about this? It doesn't affect you. You are over in Britain. The only cut guys in your country are jewish men and muslims, so why complain. I hate to sound like this, but this is America. Different way of doing things, different way of thinking on a lot of things, and different culture. I don't see why you care what happens to a bunch of people who see this as normal and don't really give a shit. Except for those weak minded men who have to have something to complain about, even though they are usually suburban middle class idiots with too much money and time to do anything else productive.

 

[Apollo]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I think its an essential matter of freedom, but as childrens freedom is already limited by parental authority if we stop them doing this than we probably have to stop them doing other things or be accused of hypocrisy.

I never thought I would say this...but I agree with AndrewD

 

[FunDude]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

Well.. I very much believe in judaism. I think most of its laws were based on health concerns and how to live a healthy life... Granted they are so many of them, and no one follows them all.. I do like to follow them to a comfortable healthy extent.

My question is.. Why should it matter? You're probably not going to be near the childs penis anyways.

 

[Apollo]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

People have been circumcised since at least the age of the Pharoahs, i.e. thousands of years.

And I bet none of them complained. Why can't we bring back some of the old ways. Like when men acted like men and only complained when it was serious or life threatning? Why are we complaining about this pointless stuff?

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I really liked your earpiercing argument Blackwolf!

I fail to see the difference btwn a parent choosing to have their child cut and choosing to have a cleft palate corrected, putting braces on their child's teeth, having a weird birthmark removed, correcting a lazy eye and the like. Also, when a hermaphrodite is born, it's common for the parents to choose the gender of the baby (when it's medically sound to do so) and the "extra" organs are cut off. Now, none of these surgeries are probably nec but the parents still have the right to make the choice. This is no different.

 

[FunDude]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I really liked your earpiercing argument Blackwolf!

I fail to see the difference btwn a parent choosing to have their child cut and choosing to have a cleft palate corrected, putting braces on their child's teeth, having a weird birthmark removed, correcting a lazy eye and the like. Also, when a hermaphrodite is born, it's common for the parents to choose the gender of the baby (when it's medically sound to do so) and the "extra" organs are cut off. Now, none of these surgeries are probably nec but the parents still have the right to make the choice. This is no different.

Good point! I didn't think of it like that even though I've had some of that done too.

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

^Well, if his comments are ignorant, show us where he's wrong. I've seen some of those same medical facts before are you claiming that they are incorrect, largely misunderstood, misrepresented, etc? He said that it might dramatically drop the incidence of the AIDS infection not that it was guaranteed to do so.

 

[LatinoSTAR]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

Im Uncut, and im glad, cut penises look nasty as hell, its unnatural....

 

[number2]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

¡¡que la jeffe!! dude..... i want my foreskin back NOW!

thats sick.

 

[Elworth]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I would argue that the reason why this is not comparable to a cleft palate, a lazy eye, a weird birthmark, etc, is because other than having one that is too tight, or having another medical reason, circumcision is the modification of someone else's body for vanity reasons without their permission. I don't agree with the fact that an adult has the right to that because their child is doesn't have the capacity to make that decision yet, and many parents are not informed of all the pros and cons of either side.

Yes, it is a moot point to argue this, but we still have the right to do so, and if it pisses you off, don't read this thread. I'm not a whiny bith because I want my foreskin back... I'm a whiny bitch because of a lot of other things...

It must be noted that there is a book about a set of twins where one twin was turned into a girl by doctors because they messed up on the circumcision and the family decided that to remove his penis would be for the best.

I have a friend whose older brother's circumcision was screwed up and because of that, he is uncut.

Mistakes happen, and rather than depriving people of their sensitivity, I believe this practice should be stopped.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

Cultural relativism shouldn't be an absolute. Culture and/or religion isn't the end all excuse for all cruelty. Especially cruelty as vicious and demeaning as female 'circumcision'.

Talk about apples and oranges...Female circumcision isn't done for any kind of medical advantage; it's done solely for the reason of controlling daughters, and can lead to a number of problems. Male circumcision, however, isn't done for vanity or because someone is interested in the appearance of the boy's penis; there are some medical advantages. however debatable. Yeesh...

RG

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I would argue that the reason why this is not comparable to a cleft palate, a lazy eye, a weird birthmark, etc, is because other than having one that is too tight, or having another medical reason, circumcision is the modification of someone else's body for vanity reasons without their permission.
Yes, it is a moot point to argue this, but we still have the right to do so, and if it pisses you off, don't read this thread. I'm not a whiny bith because I want my foreskin back... I'm a whiny bitch because of a lot of other things...
.

Well, you pretty much just made my exact original argument. There is generally no reason to operate on a cleft palate (unless it stops the kid from breathing or eating), putting braces on a kid, getting rid of a weird birthmark, or correcting a lazy eye other than for purely asthetic reasons. So, why refer to cutting a child as barbaric and cruel when the other items I've named are similar. Each are called selective surgeries b/c it's not nec to have them to survive. Which, according to several of your alls arguments, is also true of circumcision. There is some medical research that shows valuable benefits to being cut. On the other hand, there's also research to refute these claims. So, who's correct. No one really knows. I guess it's a personal choice of the parents. Legally, the parents should've been informed about the pitfalls and benefits of circumcising their baby when they signed their consent form. Maybe they are informed and maybe they aren't. I've never seen one...never given birth. What about conjoined twins? Some of them can survive on their own and some can't. What about the ones that can survive on their own and the parents decide to move forward w/ an operation to separate their bodies. These are just little babies and no one has asked them whether they'd prefer to be separated or not. Well, is this barbaric. The twins could survive either way and several conjoined twins have had fulfilling lives. This example is more severe but interesting nonetheless.

And you aren't being a whinny bitch. I'm sorry if I presented my argument as though I believed anyone who complained about circumcision to be whinny. That wasn't my intention.

 

[sunoftheskye]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I don't care, I don't want foreskin and am glad I was circumcized.

I find foreskin quite ugly.

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

So, just to be clear, you consider a foreskin to be a malfunction, an abnormality, or a birth defect of some sorts?

Meaning what, the child is nothing but a piece of personal property to be physically and/or mentally manipulated/redesigned however the parents decide? Do you have an idea of where a line should be drawn, or do you feel that ‘anything goes’?

I do not consider foreskin to be an abnormality nor do I consider a birthmark or crooked teeth to be an abnormality (although, I guess it is medically but the vast majority of us have crooked teeth and some type of skin discoloration). I picked those examples, the cleft palate, braces, lazy eye, etc. b/c correcting each item physically alters a child for life. Blackwolf's earing analogy (several parents get their kid's ears pierced and no one complains) was very clever. However, it was weakened by the counter argument that a piercing can be corrected since the child won't always bear the mark (the whole can grow up).

I really don't have a deep opinion about the issue at all. Again, there is medical info which suggests circumcision provides wonderful health benefits and of course, there's info that suggests it doesn't. Pick which side you fall on and go from there. I don't have a penis so it's not like I'm going to have to decide to get cut or stay intact. I also have no children so there's no little Johnny who's about to go under the knife. My original post was simply in response to the reactions from other JUBBERS. Why is circumcision the trigger of anger and disgust for some members? Were you not aware that parents have always made the medical decisions for the kids?

Now to answer your second assertion, of course children are not property. As stated in the U.S. Constiution a person can never be owned. However, we certainly allow fit parents to make medical decisions for their children. For example, in many states, parents can keep their child from being vaccinated if it would go against their religious beliefs. Parents can stick their children on ADD medicine if they choose to do so (assuming the doctor prescribes the meds and diagnoses the child as having ADD.) On the other hand, the parents can also refuse to medicate their child and can choose other methods of healing. Church of Christ kids never take medicine. They don't usually go to the doctor...they opt for prayer rather than medicine. Parents have the right to request that their child be resucitated and they can also choose to pull the plug. The issue has been challanged in the crts and sometimes it holds up and sometimes it doesn't. It depends largely on the state and the situation at hand.

However, children (when they get old enough) are not w/o power. A child can petition the crt if they want to stop/start treatment. Likewise, a physician can also petition the crt to intervene on behalf of the child's welfare. Also, anyone can child services if they feel that a child is being harmed. If your neighbor is refusing to take his daughter to the doctor after she's severed an artery then feel free to pick up the phone and call them. Well, call 911 first and apply pressure to the wound -then call child services.

Of course, parents still have a lot of control over their child's health and safety--and they should. The parent is in the best position to make the decision. They are the ones who support the child, love the child, know how the child feels, created the child, etc. Generally, most parents really love their children and want to do what's best for them. That's good enough for me.

What about you? Where would you draw the line?

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

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[AdmiraalW238]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I couldn't watch it all.

I don't want to see a non-consenting baby having a serious surgical operation performed on him for no other reason than barbaric ancient religious superstition or modern-day trivial cosmetic whim.


Meanwhile ...

As soon as I realised what the video was I just could not watch it..but I will join you for , Gareth

 

[Alpha1851]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

You’ve typed out way too much nervous rambling here, and frankly, as usual, your attitude bores me.

Well, I guess you told me.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

I wasn't the one who brought it up. Scroll back and read JL's original post. Yeesh....

But I liked your post better!

RG

 

[BenF]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

Markedly reduced incidence of urinary tract infections,
Reduced incidence of penile cancer,
Reduced incidence of phismosis and infections associated with the prepuce,
Reduced risk of STI/HIV transmission,
Reduced incidence of cervical cancer in female partners (HPV may be carried in the foreskin and be passed on to the partner... I bet there's a reduced incidence of anal cancer among gay males too, but I haven't read any research on that)

Currently the major pediatric societies don't recommend for or against circumcision, however comments that there are no medical benefits are simply ignorant.

In the same way that a prophylactic double mastectomy reduces the incidence of breast cancer?

Until you show me some evidence for some of those spurious claims, I shall ignore them.

When I say evidence, I mean written and accepted in a peer reviewed medical journal - not some crap that you have found on Wikipedia or some idiot's blog.

Point 1: There's evidence, albeit inconclusive at this juncture, that circumcision might dramatically drop the incidence of AIDS infection in heterosexual males.

Point 2: Yes. Who are we Westerners to tell Muslims (or anybody else) how to live their lives?

In this regard, I see nothing wrong with polygamy, either, as long as the practitioners are consenting adults.

The operative words that blow a hole right through your own argument are consenting adults, the children who are circumcised in the name of religion/tradition/US way of life are neither consenting nor adults.

With regards to this 'fact' being kicked about HIV and circumcision - until I see the randomised controlled trial which supports this, it is no more than statistical coincidence.

I really liked your earpiercing argument Blackwolf!

I fail to see the difference btwn a parent choosing to have their child cut and choosing to have a cleft palate corrected, putting braces on their child's teeth, having a weird birthmark removed, correcting a lazy eye and the like. Also, when a hermaphrodite is born, it's common for the parents to choose the gender of the baby (when it's medically sound to do so) and the "extra" organs are cut off. Now, none of these surgeries are probably nec but the parents still have the right to make the choice. This is no different.

ARE YOU SERIOUS??? Are you seriously comparing an elective procedure with no benefits to anybody to surgery to correct morphological abnormalities associated with significant morbidity and mortality?

To suggest that gender surgery for hermaphrodites is somehow cosmetic just shows your level of ignorance and, I dare say, stupidity.

 

[AdmiraalW238]

Re: To Anyone Who Agrees With Circumcision

... With regards to this 'fact' being kicked about HIV and circumcision - until I see the randomised controlled trial which supports this, it is no more than statistical coincidence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6176209.stm

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/hill-denniston1/

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7249/1592

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

These are just some of the articles on HIV and circumcision that deals with heterosexual transmissions.

And BenF46 considering your background you would be well aware that not all studies are a randomised controlled trial.