Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

[propoolplayer99]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

It's important to recognize two things here:

1) No scientist claims that randomized control trials are perfect. That said, the evidence that they produce is the best possible evidence that we currently have available.

2) Africa is in a state of crisis. Some countries' populations are actually in decline because of the ravaging effects of HIV/AIDS. Treatments with even small benefits will have a huge impact in such a large scale disaster.

We currently have the best quality evidence directing us towards circumcision as part of the answer for this crisis that is destroying a continent. The barrier is a segment of western society imposing their ideology at the expense of innumerable peoples in the poorest world communities.

Anyone care to draw a parallel with global warming?

 

[propoolplayer99]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

"The Timaeus and Jasseh (2004) estimates cannot be considered an entirely reliable standard because of the limited data on which they are based and the assumptions necessary in their calculation, such as the assumption of a common age pattern of mortality increase across countries (see also chapter 4 in this volume). Nevertheless, the consistently lower levels of adult mortality they determine may suggest some overstatement in the UN and WHO mortality estimates, which could be tied to an overestimation in the modeling of the mortality impact of AIDS."

"If the epidemics are indeed at a plateau or past their peak, that may be uncomfortable for the agency projections. The Census Bureau projections are inconsistent with this idea, since they assume that peak prevalence is not reached until 2010. Whether the UN projections are consistent with plateauing epidemics is not clear. The UN reports that peak incidence for the epidemics—not peak prevalence—was reached on average about 1994, which could be consistent with some decline in prevalence by 2001. Country by country, however, there is no relationship between an earlier assumed incidence peak for the UN and the amount of apparent prevalence decline in the UNAIDS estimates. Only the World Bank projections, which effectively assume that AIDS-related mortality is already in decline, would be consistent with the interpretation of epidemics in at least early decline in the region."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=dmssa&part=A348

Plus I've already pointed out in my OP that there has been a trend in Africa to blame AIDS for every other death of unknown cause - the rate of the decline in population in Africa cannot be reliably correlated to HIV/AIDS.

edit: And yes I do care to draw a parallel with global warming - we were all led astray on that too and Al Gore's docu-movie has been widely criticized by 'experts' and there are many other experts who claim that global warming is a completely natural occurrence.

I think you misunderstand the impact of HIV/AIDS. While it's not clear how many die of HIV/AIDS, we know that many people suffer living with HIV/AIDS. In some of the poorest countries, over 10% of their population are afflicted. This is not in dispute.

http://www.globalhealthfacts.org/topic.jsp?i=3

You can argue all day about whether or not "Aids-related mortality is in decline". I could care less. The fact is that huge numbers are continuing to be infected, and those who aren't dieing of HIV/AIDS (as you consider so paramount) are living with HIV/AIDS. Living with HIV/AIDS is devastating when you can't afford treatment. I consider preventing someone from becoming infected and having to live with HIV just as important as preventing someone from dieing of it.

 

[freedbarton]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

Not only does circumcision protect against HIV it also protects against other STDs. The US and many other countries that have high rates of teenage pragnancies and STDs you see that condom use is not a high priority, so that paves the way for increased possibilities of HIV transmission as well.

Circumcision is a very minor surgery with little or no anesthesia compared to neonatal heart and gastrointestinal surgery without any anesthesia which is done on a very frequent basis. How which is worst snipping a small piece of foreskin or opening up a chest or abdominal cavity with anesthesia?. Another thing all foreskin is retractable at birth. How do you think it can be cleaned underneath if it is not retractable?

This research was just reported from the International AIDS Conference in Mexico City earlier this month, this conference occurs only every 2 years. Remember congress passed a law prior to this meeting allowing individuals with HIV/AIDS to enter the US, in years past they had not been able to do so. I believe it was 8 years ago when the meeting was in Vancouver.

Circumcision Protects Against Several Sexually Transmitted Infections

By C. Vidya Shankar, MD

MEXICO CITY (Reuters Health) Aug 07 - Male circumcision has a protective effect against HIV, human papilloma virus and trichomonas vaginalis infections, researchers reported at the International AIDS Conference here.

Dr. Robert C. Bailey from the University of Illinois at Chicago and his team from Kenya reported 42-month follow-up results on the protective effects of male circumcision. They had previously reported encouraging results after 24 months of their randomized trial, which was stopped in December 2006 due to significant protective benefits, with the controls also being offered circumcision.

The cumulative incidence of HIV infection over 42 months among circumcised men was 2.6% as compared to 7.4% among controls, the researchers observed. The protective effect of circumcision was 64% (i.e., relative risk of infection, 0.36), they noted.

Male circumcision provides a sustained protective effect against HIV, Dr. Bailey's team concludes.

In another study, Dr. Bertran Auvert from Universite de Versailles, France and his team from South Africa analyzed the protective effect of male circumcision against other sexually transmitted infections.

In their randomized study of men aged between 18 and 24, the prevalence of human papilloma virus and trichomonas vaginalis was lower in the circumcised group with odds of 0.57 and 0.54, respectively, after 21 months follow up, they report. There was no effect on gonorrhea rates.

"Circumcision could therefore be an indirect way of limiting the risk of genital cancers caused by HPV in women," Dr. Auvert said during a related press conference.

Male circumcision can prevent between 2 to 8 million new HIV infections in the sub-Saharan Africa, resulting in savings of around $2 billion over the next 20 years, Dr. Auvert said.

Male circumcision is safe, with minimal side effects, and can be promoted as a universal preventive measure against HIV, Dr. Dirk Taljaard, one of the co-authors of the second study told Reuters Health.

"The studies of male circumcision have opened up a whole new era in the fight against AIDS: we now potentially have a new method of prevention," Professor Jean-Francois Delfraissy concluded during the press conference.


Related Links
External Links
More AIDS news on Medscape



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[propoolplayer99]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

It;s dying BTW.

Now you've turned the debate into a personal matter accusing me of not caring about people 'living' with AIDS. What more can I say?

oops

I said "misunderstand" not "ignorant" or "not caring"!!! There's a huge difference! I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my wording.

I'm trying to explain my position so that you might understand better. I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just trying to present facts in clear statements... despite the deficiencies in my spelling

 

[freedbarton]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

Noelie, You live in a country where there is Socialized medicine and high Catholic population so there is little to no concern for teenage pregnancies. Here in the US teenage pregnancies are a large problem young girls by the age of 13 start having babies, their male partners are many times men that have been in jail and have been on the down low and are infecting the young women. Young African American (AA)women are the most vulnerable population that are being infected in the US today. Many African American ministers that are married to women are living lives on the down low out cruising the parks, bus stations, molesting their young boys of their congregations, this is much worst than in the Catholic church,but the African American turn their heads and refuse to admit such things exist in their community. I personally know of 4 AA ministers that have HIV/AIDS or that have died due to complications of AIDS and their families, churches, friends have refused to admit to their disease states. So in the US condom use is not a simple solution. Our school systems do not allow teaching condom use as a means of HIV and STD prevention,only abstinence is taught. We can teach drivers education and first aid. So if removing a small piece of benign tissue will possibly prevent just one person from becoming infected with HIV 100s of thousands of circumcisions are worth the price.

 

[G-Lexington]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

For you SAT freaks,

noelie:circumcision::greaves:religion

Lex

 

[kallipolis]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

Other posters have correctly drawn our attention to the very real prospect of letting down our guard, as a result of assuming that circumcision offers a measure of protection against sexual transmitted infections and HIV.

There is no guarantee that circumcision offers any measure of protection against STIs or HIV. Research that suggests otherwise places the naive/vulnerable person in a parlous state of high risk, in contracting an incurable disease.

There is no substitute for the use of a condom, other than abstinence. We have choices. Let us not be over impressed by research that could condemn us to a premature death, preceded by years of debilitating illness.

A multitude of conflicting "official" opinions, does not protect us from contracting chlamydia, syphilis or HIV.

Avoid a false sense of security and always ensure that safer sex practice, is paramount in all sexual encounters.

We have only our self to take responsibility for our actions.

Those researchers who speculate on the usefulness of circumcision will never under write our life, nor pay for treatment of those diseases that we might well contract as a result of relying upon dubious research.

 

[propoolplayer99]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

Debunked!



For those of you who don't know - the study that comet has referred to has been widely criticised and you can read about it in my OP.

Perhaps you should read the page. It's not one study. He posted a fact sheet... But that's ok, I realise those are the second and third words in that article, and you may not have gotten that far.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

That fact sheet in fact refers to 3 randomized control trials, 35 observational studies, 19 cross-sectional studies, 5 case-control studies, 7 cohort studies, and 1 partner study all concerning HIV/AIDS transmission and circumcision. The fact sheet also refers to 26 studies that assessed the association between male circumcision and risk for genital ulcer disease. Then some further data for the US.

Spewing out "omgDebunked!" after obviously not even having read the first line of Comet's article just hurts the anticircumcision/hidden agenda clause.

 

[propoolplayer99]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

oops! off topic. deleted.

 

[propoolplayer99]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

I really do admire your passion Noelie

Perhaps we should stop arguing facts for and against, and really get back on-topic! Which hidden agenda do jubbers believe most? Is there one? Is this just bad research gone awry?

 

[blackbeltninja]

Re: HIV & Circumcision - is there a hidden agenda?

And one has to be cynical about cutting the studies short “for ethical reasons” (another name for that is “stopping while you’re ahead”), when they thought it ethical to send the men home to their partners without telling them they had HIV. These studies would not have gained ethical approval in the developed world.

There are usually endpoints which are defined, and split-points where you have enough data to conclude. At these points, studies are stopped because it makes no sense to continue them and it is "unsafe ethically" to continue them.

For example, if you are testing a new treatment vs a current, in-use treatment and the new treatment is shown statistically to be superior, it is deemed unethical to continue recruiting patients for the study arm using the old treatment because you know it to be inferior; in addition, you can't keep treating the existing patients with the old treatment for the same reason. As a result, the study is stopped for ethical reasons.

Likewise if a new treatment is shown to be really shit - you can't keep using it under trial conditions. Again, the study is stopped for ethical reasons.

I can only use my own experiences to argue, but these sort of endpoints and analyses are usually well-defined and carefully monitored by all interested parties, because nobody wants a lawsuit on their hands. I know of several studies stopped because these conditions were reached.

Also, at least down here in .za, you are not obliged to hear your HIV status even if you go for a test. Any man deciding he doesn't want to know is within his rights to go home to his partner and act like nothing has happened. In addition, the doctors involved in the study are not allowed to advise a patient's partner that he has HIV unless he consents to it. For those same reasons, if you are in an accident and get covered in someone else's blood, that person is under no obligation to tell you if he has HIV, nor is he under any obligation to get tested for it if he doesn't know.

Sad but true. Welcome to Africa.

-d-

 

[kallipolis]

Beware circumcision

Penis amputated during circumcision



A man who claims his penis was removed without his consent during what was supposed to be a circumcision has sued the doctor who performed the surgery.

Phillip Seaton, 61, and his wife are seeking unspecified compensation from Dr John Patterson and the medical practice that performed the circumcision for "loss of service, love and affection".


The Seatons also are seeking unspecified punitive damages from Patterson and his medical practice in Louisville, Kentucky.A woman who answered the phone at Commonwealth Urology would not take a message for the doctor.But Seaton's lawyer said the doctor's post-surgical notes show the doctor thought he detected cancer and removed the penis. Lawyer Kevin George said a later test did detect cancer."It was not an emergency," George said on Thursday. "It didn't have to happen that way."Seaton was having the procedure on October 19, 2007, to better treat inflammation.


The lawsuit filed earlier this month in state court claims Patterson removed Seaton's penis without consulting either Phillip or Deborah Seaton, or giving them an opportunity to seek a second opinion. The couple also sued the anaesthesiologist, Dr Oliver James, claiming he used a general anesthestic even though Seaton asked that it not be administered.The Seatons' suit is similar to one in which an Indianapolis man was awarded more than $US2.3 million ($2.8 million) in damages after he claimed his penis and left testicle were removed without his consent during surgery for an infection in 1997.

 

[seven_sins]

Re: Beware circumcision

Was this published somewhere?

 

[3stripes]

Re: Beware circumcision

Well it certainly reduces his risk of contracting HIV.

 

[honooryuu]

Re: Beware circumcision

i read this and my jaw dropped... i would sue too.

 

[star-warrior]

Circumcised by a .38

[ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rSPQKwEJcn4&feature=related[/ame]

Don't mess with [strike]Grandma[/strike] her!​

 

[BlueLantern]

Re: Circumcised by a .38

Star-warrior... your sig has never been more apropriated.

 

[thermodynamics]

Re: Circumcised by a .38

Well, I had to...

Serves him right!

 

[Lawnmowerman]

Re: Circumcised by a .38

That was awesome! Stuff like that should happen to criminals more often .

 

[kevbo]

Re: Circumcised by a .38

Now that's a .38 Special

Just hold on loosely?