Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

[Nomenclature]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Not that it matters, but in Africa, the World Health Organization is pushing for circumcision that's ONLY performed in clean, sterile and modern environments with trained doctors and clean tools. There's virtually no risk for transmission of HIV through the procedure itself, and the operation is completely painless.

 

[theFallenGod]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

FallenGod, do you realize how brutally insensitive you're being to us millions of men who've been circumcised?

It's the kind of language that starts flame wars, and causes the Mods to have to come in and mop up.

This had nothing to do with that at all... It was directed at the OP... Go back and read any and all of the threads he has posted in and look at the lies and misinformation he has posted. It's one thing to make the decision to get circumcised... its totally another to push it on others using lies to spread your BS.

His garbage is like listening to anti-abortionists and the religious right... His view is the best and any other should be condemned even though his view is full of shit,.

 

[theFallenGod]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

FallenGod, I'm referring to the practice of referring to us cut men as "mutilated". It's really an unkind thing to say. It's kinda like calling an amputee "Stumpy".

What's worse, it almost always causes a flame war, and Corny and them have to come in and clean up.

Fair enough...but FYI.. I am Semi-cut ... there was no need for me to be mutilated other than my fathers desire to have it done... They couldn't do it properly... so I ended up partially cut... I am 33 years old and at times it still causes physical pain because of the botched job they did.

They couldn't cut it properly so they just made an incision on the top section of the foreskin... they cut too deep so that section is hyper sensitive and when someone grabs my cock wrong (such as grabbing the head and pulling downward) it will cause me pain.

So when I refer to it as mutilation... it is to me... because the job they did essentially mutilated it... On me.

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

The study that suggests circumcision limits HIV/AIDS infection was conducted in a West African nation where the rate of infection is something like 80% and the vast majority of men are not circumcised.

That would be like going to China to conduct a study on cancer rates, and concluding that only Chinese people get cancer.

The study was based on junk science and has been openly challenged by medical associations across the globe. Only the most ardent pro-circ groups still cite it.

So when I refer to it as mutilation... it is to me... because the job they did essentially mutilated it... On me.

I absolutely consider any form of infant "circumcision" a mutilation; male or female.

In a society that prides itself on gender equality, the phrase “My Body, My Choice” must be applied equally.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

^Remember, though, that male and female circumcision have very different aims in mind. VERY different. Female circumcision is intended to mutilate; the equivalent in men would be cutting the mushroom head of your cock off, and male circumcision doesn't entail doing that unless something goes kinda horribly wrong.

And why is it that we cut guys can never get through to people when we politely ask them to not call us mutilated? Honestly, that raises the same kind of ire in me as being called faggot does.

-d-

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

^Remember, though, that male and female circumcision have very different aims in mind. VERY different. Female circumcision is intended to mutilate; the equivalent in men would be cutting the mushroom head of your cock off, and male circumcision doesn't entail doing that unless something goes kinda horribly wrong.

You’re describing the most extreme form of female circumcision, which actually only accounts for about 5% world-wide.

Indeed, the practice is so shocking and horrific that it often gets a lot of press, to the point of obscuring the facts of female circumcision.

The truth is; female circumcision is only illegal in a small handful of countries around the world. In the vast majority, any parent can take their daughter to a hospital and pay a fee to have her circumcised – just like any parent can do with their minor/infant son in the West.

There are several forms of female circumcision. The most common consists of skinning back the labia hood. Physiologically speaking, this would be on par with removing the foreskin from a boy. The female is still able to feel sexual pleasure, though the effects may be diminished, as many people believe (and some evidence exists to suggest) happens when a boy’s foreskin is amputated.

Also, not all cultures force this practice on infants. Many consider it a rite of passage and young women submit willingly to it, even look forward to it. I’d have no problem with that, as long as it is their choice. The same cannot be said for infants.

And why is it that we cut guys can never get through to people when we politely ask them to not call us mutilated? Honestly, that raises the same kind of ire in me as being called faggot does.

I consider cosmetically amputating body parts from infants a mutilation.

Main Entry: mu•ti•late
Pronunciation: \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): mu•ti•lat•ed; mu•ti•lat•ing
Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed
Date: 1534
1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of: maim​

But for the record, when I discuss this topic I normally avoid using the word mutilate because I understand some guys who don't mind (even like) their circ-status find it offensive.

Furthermore, I am mindful to emphasise my disapproval of preforming the procedure on infants/children. If an adult chooses to have it done to themselves for whatever reason, than I say “knock yourself out!” Heck, flip it inside out and call yourself Sheila. Whatever rocks your socks. I'll drive you to the hospital myself.

My fundamental point is "My body, My Choice." That's all.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

There are several forms of female circumcision.

I have learned something today.

I consider cosmetically amputating body parts from infants a mutilation.

Main Entry: mu•ti•late
Pronunciation: ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): mu•ti•lat•ed; mu•ti•lat•ing
Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed
Date: 1534
1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of: maim​

Since the bulk of us are not permanently destroyed and our winkies still work 100%, your definition cannot technically apply. Addtionally, by that definition any surgery is mutilation, even corrective surgery.

My fundamental point is "My body, My Choice." That's all.

What I dislike about the term is the baggage which is attached to it, like I should spend every ounce of my energy hating the people who maimed me. Sorry - I don't.

If it helps, I don't agree with the procedure as a knee-jerk reaction - "I had it done so everyone should; it's fine" - and I won't have my son/s done unless it is necessary. However, I do believe that my parents made a decision based on advice from a doctor, and perhaps he and they were misguided and took the wrong decision. But I'm not going to let that rule my life - it wasn't botched, everything still works, I'm over it.

-d-

 

[Deandbn]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

You guys really do go on a bit.

This is Africa my dear, and if Xhosa's want to chop the end of their wee willy winkies off with rusty old hunting knives and things, and paint themselves white in the process, and then run around in the bush for a couple of days (finding themselves and becoming a man if and while it heals), who's gonna stop them? You, or me? never!

As long as their witchdoctors think it's a good thing they'll carry on doing it, and if a couple of them die in the process, well so be it.

 

[cyravance]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

You’re describing the most extreme form of female circumcision, which actually only accounts for about 5% world-wide.

Indeed, the practice is so shocking and horrific that it often gets a lot of press, to the point of obscuring the facts of female circumcision.

The truth is; female circumcision is only illegal in a small handful of countries around the world. In the vast majority, any parent can take their daughter to a hospital and pay a fee to have her circumcised – just like any parent can do with their minor/infant son in the West.

There are several forms of female circumcision. The most common consists of skinning back the labia hood. Physiologically speaking, this would be on par with removing the foreskin from a boy. The female is still able to feel sexual pleasure, though the effects may be diminished, as many people believe (and some evidence exists to suggest) happens when a boy’s foreskin is amputated.

Also, not all cultures force this practice on infants. Many consider it a rite of passage and young women submit willingly to it, even look forward to it. I’d have no problem with that, as long as it is their choice. The same cannot be said for infants.



I consider cosmetically amputating body parts from infants a mutilation.

Main Entry: mu•ti•late
Pronunciation: ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): mu•ti•lat•ed; mu•ti•lat•ing
Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed
Date: 1534
1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of: maim​

But for the record, when I discuss this topic I normally avoid using the word mutilate because I understand some guys who don't mind (even like) their circ-status find it offensive.

Furthermore, I am mindful to emphasise my disapproval of preforming the procedure on infants/children. If an adult chooses to have it done to themselves for whatever reason, than I say “knock yourself out!” Heck, flip it inside out and call yourself Sheila. Whatever rocks your socks. I'll drive you to the hospital myself.

My fundamental point is "My body, My Choice." That's all.

Actually, the most common form is the type II, also called excision, which involves the removal of the entire clitoris and parts of the inner labia. Removal of just the clitoral hood is not even considered a true circumcision by the cultures practicing FGM.
The most extreme, the pharaonic, is more prevalent than 5%. Probably closer to 15-20%. There, everything is removed, the clitoris, the inner labia and the inner part of the outer labia. The edges of the resulting open wound are then brought together and either sutured, or held together with thorns, until it heals. A pinhole opening is left for the passage of urine and menstrual blood. When the woman marries, her husband frequently has to cut through the scar tissue in order to consumate the marriage!
The most common age for this is 4-8 years old. This belies any notion of consent on the part of the girl undergoing this procedure. In addition, girls who try to refuse the procedure are ostracized, and not considered marriageable, until they give in and have it done. Younger girls are simply held down by mothers, aunts, etc, while it is being done. With that kind of societal pressure, the notion of girls "consenting" to this procedure is ridiculous.
But, if you guys really want to have some nightmares, Google "flaying circumcision of men, Yemen." I'll spare you the details on this post, if you want to know, you can look it up yourselves.
It's a nasty thing to do to anyone, male or female, regardless of degree of severity, when they are unable to refuse.

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Since the bulk of us are not permanently destroyed and our winkies still work 100%, your definition cannot technically apply. Addtionally, by that definition any surgery is mutilation, even corrective surgery.

I would counter that my statement is, in fact, a matter of personal opinion. Which is why I deliberately phrased it as such.

As I mentioned earlier, I absolutely and without a doubt believe what was done to my body is a mutilation. I do not believe it functions as properly or as completely as it would if it still had all of its assembly pieces attached, anymore than a car functions as properly with a missing fan belt.

What I dislike about the term is the baggage which is attached to it, like I should spend every ounce of my energy hating the people who maimed me. Sorry - I don't.

Like I said, I don’t normally use the word for that very reason. I don’t want to imply inferiority to men who accept/like their circ-status.

However, I do believe that my parents made a decision based on advice from a doctor, and perhaps he and they were misguided and took the wrong decision. But I'm not going to let that rule my life - it wasn't botched, everything still works, I'm over it.

I don’t want to give the impression that I spend my days fixating on this. It is an issue I am passionate about, but one that I have learned to channel my feelings about in a positive direction. I view cosmetic infant circumcision as a human rights violation, and try to confront it on that platform alone. Emotional baggage aside. Promise.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

I would counter that my statement is, in fact, a matter of personal opinion. Which is why I deliberately phrased it as such.

Looked like a dictionary definition to me...

As I mentioned earlier, I absolutely and without a doubt believe what was done to my body is a mutilation. I do not believe it functions as properly or as completely as it would if it still had all of its assembly pieces attached, anymore than a car functions as properly with a missing fan belt.

The difference, of course, is that a car needs a fan belt. You could more accurately liken this to a car without a radio, or without electric windows.

I hear you, and I'll dispute what you're saying - if you can still pee, you still get hard and you can still come then it's working perfectly. Fact is, we'll never know what the difference in sensitivity is. It's all theoretical. Each person feels things differently, so what might be mind-blowing for me might be meh for you. I think this is why I don't agonise over it - I could agonise as much about being taller, or blonde, but the fact is you don't know if there would be a difference to you, nor how much.

When push comes to shove, is there really any point in spending any time playing "what if...?"

I don’t want to give the impression that I spend my days fixating on this. It is an issue I am passionate about, but one that I have learned to channel my feelings about in a positive direction. I view cosmetic infant circumcision as a human rights violation, and try to confront it on that platform alone. Emotional baggage aside. Promise.

This is probably fair. I do wonder if the collective energy blasted into this topic so frequently on forums and talkshows and magazines all over the world might be better spent on something a little more pressing and a lot more important, though. IMO it is the proverbial mountain from a molehill.

-d-

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Looked like a dictionary definition to me...

I consider cosmetically amputating body parts from infants a mutilation.

I know of no dictionary that includes subjective statements of personal opinion.

The difference, of course, is that a car needs a fan belt. You could more accurately liken this to a car without a radio, or without electric windows.

I disagree. The foreskin is not an “accessory;” it has a multitude of designs that directly benefit the overall function of the organ.

- The soft mucosa of the inner foreskin produces plasma cells, which secrete immunoglobulin antibodies, and antibacterial and antiviral proteins, such as the pathogen-killing enzyme called lysozyme.

- The frenulum is a highly nerve-laden web of tissue that tethers the inner foreskin to the underside of the glans. It is wonderfully sensitive, and completely amputated in typical male circumcision. It holds about 15-30% of all sensitive nerve endings in the penis.

- The foreskin houses Apocrine glands, which secrete sex pharamones; Sebaceous glands, which produces oils that keep the glans moist and naturally lubricated; and several bundles of lymph nodes, which allow proper lymph flow and immunological functioning.

- Roughly half the genitals Dartos fascia is destroyed by circumcision. This is the sensory receptors that regulate genital temperature.

- The foreskin supplies and regulates Langerhans cells, which boost immune response and healing factors.

That isn’t even a complete list.

I hear you, and I'll dispute what you're saying - if you can still pee, you still get hard and you can still come then it's working perfectly.

We have a very different definition of “perfect.”

When push comes to shove, is there really any point in spending any time playing "what if...?"

I speak against cosmetic infant circumcision, male or female, so that the practice may be abolished and the decision left to the only person with whom it should reside; the owner of the penis, or vagina, if the case may be.

I feel that the alternative is to invite a great injustice and gross violation of basic human rights.

That is my motivation.

 

[theFallenGod]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

You two can go back forth all day... but when its done to you and its done wrong you have every right to call it mutilation.

Plus as I said ... it wasn't directed at anyone who is cut ... it was directed at the OP who has some sort of prime directive to sell circumcision.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

I disagree. The foreskin is not an “accessory;” it has a multitude of designs that directly benefit the overall function of the organ.

[Loads of Latin] - that isn’t even a complete list.

We have a very different definition of “perfect.”

Come now. How far would your car get without a fanbelt vs how far would you get without a foreskin? It may indeed serve many functions; however, given the state of the population numbers on the 3rd Rock from the Sun, I put it to you that it is hardly necessary. Perhaps it is something we might even lose through evolution as we go along.

Have there been reports of death as a result of circumcision, APART from sepsis likely obtained during the procedure? Do doctors and aid workers and clerics and NGOs looking out of a field of people who've died of whatever killed them mutter to themselves "if only they still had foreskins this world wouldn't be such a mess..."

Precisely.

I can't help but feel there is for the most part simply a feeling of jealousy when this issue comes to light - "their sex might feel better than mine." As I said, you'll never know. And surely if the uncut is that much more sensitive, the uncuts would have seriously high numbers of premature ejaculations.

I am of course playing Devil's Advocate here since as I said earlier I wouldn't unnecessarily circumcise my own sons if I ever have any. Still, it does seem to me mostly like OTT left-wing hand-wringing hysteria and all largely unnecessary.

I wonder how many guys in here resent their parents for having them done at birth. Anyone care to respond to that? I don't resent mine. Perhaps they were misguided, perhaps the doctor offering advice was misguided, perhaps the decision was correct, perhaps it wasn't - I simply don't care enough to bear a grudge. I've got too much satisfaction and entertainment and relief from my bits and pieces over the 33 years I've been here to do that.

I feel that the alternative is to invite a great injustice and gross violation of basic human rights.

That is my motivation.

Honestly, I think you'd do far better campaigning for clean water and other basic amenities for the poor and destitute and other voiceless, faceless and desperate people. Seriously. Can you imagine if Bono, Mother Theresa, Princess Diana and Bob Geldof spent all their time going on about foreskins instead of focusing on more big-picture stuff?

-d-

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Come now. How far would your car get without a fanbelt vs how far would you get without a foreskin?

Why not fixate on the point of my statement, and not the wording of a single example?

I absolutely and without a doubt believe what was done to my body is a mutilation. I do not believe it functions as properly or as completely as it would if it still had all of its assembly pieces attached,

I’ve detailed many ways in which an incomplete penis is at a significant disadvantage over one that remain intact.

however, given the state of the population numbers on the 3rd Rock from the Sun, I put it to you that it is hardly necessary.

Over 80% of the men on planet earth are not circumcised.

Perhaps it is something we might even lose through evolution as we go along.

Unlikely. Virtually every male of virtually every species on the planet has a foreskin of some type.

Have there been reports of death as a result of circumcision, APART from sepsis likely obtained during the procedure?

Why do you limit it to death? There are infant boys castrated every year by botched circumcisions. Many men would consider that worse than death.

And that’s not even to mention the various deformities and disorders that can develop as a direct result of circumcision, from skin-bridges to disfigurations of the glans, to skin conditions that affect the penis’ ability to heal. Sometimes in “good” circumcisions too much skin is removed, so erections are painful as the shaft tries to extend further than the skin allows. Also, Keratinization, by which the penis head is forced to grow thickened layers of skin to compensate for the missing protection of its foreskin. Hell, even fucked up discoloured scars that make the some guy feel self-conscious about their manhood.

Adult circumcision carries fewer risks, but more importantly, any risks it does carry are understood and accepted by the person who will actually have to live with it.

The same can’t be said for infants on whom this practice is forced. Which is why I am staunchly opposed to cosmetic infant circumcision, male or female.

I can't help but feel there is for the most part simply a feeling of jealousy when this issue comes to light - "their sex might feel better than mine." As I said, you'll never know.

No, you are the one who has repeatedly brought up this point. I made a passing reference to it once, and only once, in direct response to your assertion that female circumcision always means a complete loss of sexual sensation.

Maybe you are projecting?

Still, it does seem to me mostly like OTT left-wing hand-wringing hysteria and all largely unnecessary.

I’d be a hypocrite to stand up for basic human rights, and ignore the multitudes of infants that are subjected to cosmetic amputation of parts of their genitals.

I wonder how many guys in here resent their parents for having them done at birth. Anyone care to respond to that?

My parents and I have had several frank discussions about my feelings. I understand that they were only trying to do what was best for me based on bad information, but I still resent their usurping of my basic human rights to govern my own body. I don’t think that will ever change, though my mother’s apology helped.

Now I focus on dispelling many of the misconceptions about this practice so that other people, and new parents, can be better informed.

Honestly, I think you'd do far better campaigning for clean water and other basic amenities for the poor and destitute and other voiceless, faceless and desperate people.

And you think I don’t?

 

[jonduer]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Again science doesn't mean anything to the anticircs who live in the 18th century. I guess it doesn't mean anything that years of research in Canada, USA, France, UK, and the UN have come to the same conclusion. France and the UK are hardly procirc countries. P. S. There is no relationship between so-called the true mutilation of female "circumcision" and male circumcision. Too bad when the foreskin which is worshipped in the anticirc world is taken away you all go crazy. You all have the erudition of Sarah Palin. Too bad. She too is a stupid racist.

 

[theFallenGod]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Again science doesn't mean anything to the anticircs who live in the 18th century. I guess it doesn't mean anything that years of research in Canada, USA, France, UK, and the UN have come to the same conclusion. France and the UK are hardly procirc countries. P. S. There is no relationship between so-called the true mutilation of female "circumcision" and male circumcision. Too bad when the foreskin which is worshipped in the anticirc world is taken away you all go crazy. You all have the erudition of Sarah Palin. Too bad. She too is a stupid racist.

And this just proves my point that he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about...

What happened to you ... what mental derangement do you have to make you so pro-mutilation? Why are you so adamantly against the way you are born that you would continue to spout your drivel and lies to support something that none of the medical community supports any longer?



And screw you buddy... I am allowed to be anti-circ since THEY SCREWED MINE UP !!!!

If they had left it alone like nature had intended I wouldn't have the problems I have... The pain it causes me because of the mutilation the stupid Dr's caused me...

But hey keep spewing your lies and false propaganda.. we all see it for what it is. It also appears you are much more like Mrs. Palin who also had a great time spouting lies about "Death Panels" and everything...

 

[milboy]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

Again science doesn't mean anything to the anticircs who live in the 18th century. I guess it doesn't mean anything that years of research in Canada, USA, France, UK, and the UN have come to the same conclusion. France and the UK are hardly procirc countries. P. S. There is no relationship between so-called the true mutilation of female "circumcision" and male circumcision. Too bad when the foreskin which is worshipped in the anticirc world is taken away you all go crazy. You all have the erudition of Sarah Palin. Too bad. She too is a stupid racist.

Five countries in Africa, with Majority circumcised, have high HIV/aids rates seen in majority circ'd guys. Five countries!! So the whole being cut thing preventing spread of HIV is a FAIL!

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

BearBoi, I've heard this statistic repeated as if it's fact, but when you think about it, the numbers simply don't add up.

"Estimates of the proportion of males that are circumcised worldwide vary from one-sixth to a third. The WHO has estimated that 664,500,000 males aged 15 and over are circumcised (30% global prevalence), with almost 70% of these being Muslim.* Circumcision is most prevalent in the Muslim world, parts of South East Asia, Africa, the United States, The Philippines, Israel, and South Korea. It is relatively rare in Europe, Latin America, parts of Southern Africa, and most of Asia and Oceania..." -Wiki​

It seems I was off by 10%. I trust this will not detract from my other points; from expressions of personal opinion to statements of medical fact, including some presented with photographic evidence.

Also, by all estimates the number of parents choosing to circumcise their baby boys in North America is shrinking, not growing. Short article/Stats

* The World Health Organization: Male Circumcision: Global trends and determinants of prevalence, safety and acceptability

 

[BearBoi]

Re: South Africa and Circumcision

36% sounds about right to me.

Interestingly, if you look at anti-circ sites, you'll see a much lower percentage quoted. Most of time, anti-circ opinion goes hand-in-hand with demagoguery

Because God knows Seething's use of a calculator while waiting for WOW to update is more accurate than the study published by the World Health Organization, right? Oh, but his percentage was higher and you like it more.