Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

[star-warrior]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

When my son was born, the doctors, nurses and midwives recommended that we did not retract his foreskin to clean. This is because for a time, the prepuce is actually attached to the glans penis. He is intact, and I am too, and I would not opt for a surgical procedure where one was unnecessary.

On the faith part, if your god requires you to sacrifice body parts of your offspring to demonstrate obedience to your faith, then I say your god is abhorrent and the faith you've build around it is gruesome.

 

[fetaby]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Wow so circumcision is an injustice now? LOL.

Ive heard it all. Drunk driving analagies. Blood transfusion analogies.
You guys are something. I'm sorry that your aesthetic tastes are done such an injustice.
It's fucking foreskin.

For being such a smart man, why do you suddenly and consistently fail to understand how to read?

No, circumcision is not an injustice, IMO. It is a medically unnecessary operation oftentimes being performed on individuals who are UNABLE to give consent.

The performing of the operation without consent is the injustice. Tell me Lucky, if a person is forced into servitude against their will, isn't that an injustice? The imposition of one's will above another for whatever reason will always be an injustice. It was true for slavery despite the economic gains had by the slave owners. And it's true for children facing circumcision despite the reasoning of their parents be it religious, aesthetic, or non-think. Go ahead, be predictable now...

 

[yummylongsword]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

For being such a smart man, why do you suddenly and consistently fail to understand how to read?

No, circumcision is not an injustice, IMO. It is a medically unnecessary operation oftentimes being performed on individuals who are UNABLE to give consent.

The performing of the operation without consent is the injustice. Tell me Lucky, if a person is forced into servitude against their will, isn't that an injustice? The imposition of one's will above another for whatever reason will always be an injustice. It was true for slavery despite the economic gains had by the slave owners. And it's true for children facing circumcision despite the reasoning of their parents be it religious, aesthetic, or non-think. Go ahead, be predictable now...

It is a medically elective surgery. It has proven health benefits. It offers a slight cosmetic adjustment. It is, in my opinion, up to the parents and not the state to weigh any benefits against possible problems related to circumcision; parents should (and do) have the option to perform elective surgery on their children, and often do.

The "imposition of one's will above another" is not a crime when a parent is imposing their will on a child. Parents don't "impose" names on their children, or "impose" on the town they'll be raised in, or treat their child as "slaves" by having them work in the house. Circumcision is just one more decision that parents may or may not deem best for their child.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Religious leaders are outraged after a German court ruled that circumcision infringes on a child's right to be protected from bodily harm.

The regional court in Cologne said that circumcision went against the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents." They added that religious freedom would not be curtailed because the child would be able to choose later whether he wanted to have a circumcision. However, if the parents decided for the boy, it changed the body of the child "irreparably and permanently" and went against that child's rights to choose his religious beliefs.

"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.

Portions of Cologne, Germany Court Ruling



9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. ”

23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household , including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Genesis 17



Now, if you were a Jew (just to pull a circumcision-driven religion out of my underpants) whether of traditional values or just hedging one's bets, who would you listen to: A German (of all things) Court or...

...GOD?

I think this is the real issue here. I mean, whether one likes to possess and/or to suck on a cut or intact cock is another story.

But I don't think that Jewish parents are circumcising their infant boys so that their little guys' cocks are more or less appealing to cocksuckers in the coming years.

They're doing it because GOD said so.

And they have EIGHT days in which to do it!!!!!!!!!!! (Hey, it isn't like God isn't giving them a couple of more days to get it done than when He created the entire universe, you know).

And while some circumcised guys hate the fact that they lost their foreskin after only a week of enjoying it, many circumcised guys simply love their circumcised cocks.

Same with the uncircumcised. Heavens! While most guys with foreskin might like to milk the skin sleeve and have tongues under there lapping around, there are other guys with foreskin who curse the day that their lazy parents didn't clean up the nibbly part through scalpel (or sharp teeth).

I don't know if mixing the physical and sexual benefits (or liabilities) of either status with WHAT GOD SAID is going to get anywhere much with those who adhere to what their GOD laid down as a dictate.

Its an uphill battle. I mean, maybe if the courts and medical science could explain where GOD went wrong in His demand to circumcise, some Jews and Muslims might just begin to think that God was practicing medicine without a license.

But something tells me that Genesis 17 wasn't a medical book. And the edict to nip the little nippers had nothing to do with modern science. Although...it did contribute I have to think to making Jews some of the best doctors since they had to learn how to circumcise a ton of males AND treat any potential bleeding and infections.

So in that way, maybe God, through Abraham, brought the medical arts to the Jews? I mean think of the times. Jews while risking a little surgery at eight days of age might have one burden set upon by their God, think of the Gentiles of the time who were soldiers and shepherds (mainly) who might not have even had much access to fresh water. I can imagine those uncut foreskins could have knocked over a village when they returned home. And they, too, risked infections - for life (especially if they were beastly, grunting he-men in the desert). We're talking B.C.A XXXX, after all here, folks.

And Muslims and Jews, if we can say one thing about them is that they're clean. As are most American modern science American guys who were circumcised simply for theories on hygiene and penis health.

 

[fetaby]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

It is a medically elective surgery. It has proven health benefits. It offers a slight cosmetic adjustment. It is, in my opinion, up to the parents and not the state to weigh any benefits against possible problems related to circumcision; parents should (and do) have the option to perform elective surgery on their children, and often do.

The "imposition of one's will above another" is not a crime when a parent is imposing their will on a child. Parents don't "impose" names on their children, or "impose" on the town they'll be raised in, or treat their child as "slaves" by having them work in the house. Circumcision is just one more decision that parents may or may not deem best for their child.

The appendix.... It's a vestigial organ of the digestive system. It serves no function. We do not remove it unless there is a medical need. When the need does occur, if the organ is not removed the patient could easily die. But thanks to modern medicine, this is seldom the case.

If in the case of the appendix, an organ whose presence could pose a health threat, and it's still left in the body until medically necessary to remove. Why is the foreskin, an organelle that has a similar profile to the appendix, routinely removed?

A slight cosmetic adjustment... cute.

And these "proven health benefits"? List them. If you mean the supposed lessening of the contraction of STDs, that theory while sound in principal, does not account for psychology. Those "STD proof" penises are attached to men who think they have a better chance of not catching STDs, that thought translates into more sexual behavior and riskier sexual behavior. The increase in exposure negates any possible benefit. So it's disingenuous to state there are proven health benefits when if fact there are only possible health benefits if any. And even if there are proven health benefits they'd have to be on the scale of the midas touch to justify electing the operation when there are only very few cases when not having a foreskin becomes necessary.

Now. How parents impose their will on their children is most definitely of the interest to the state, and if you don't believe that just ask any Department of Social Services case worker, or the lady who took her 5 year old to the tanning salon...

You don't get to cause damage another person's body against their will. even if that damage is thought to be temporary. It doesn't matter if you're their parent or not. It doesn't matter if you consider it damage or not. At least that's how it is in Germany for now.

 

[RonR18]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I play with what's left of my butchered foreskin every day while watching TV, stretching it out as much as possible, and it seems like it's gotten a little longer as a result. If I can ever get it to cover at least half of my dickhead, I'm going to send a picture of my dick to my sadistic mother, saying, "If you thought it'd be funny to have a quack amputate part of my dick, the joke is on you, because you got ripped off." (My mother likes to see my dick, because she used to snoop through my collection of nude pictures when I was living with her, and even stole one of them.)

 

[yummylongsword]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

The appendix.... It's a vestigial organ of the digestive system. It serves no function. We do not remove it unless there is a medical need. When the need does occur, if the organ is not removed the patient could easily die. But thanks to modern medicine, this is seldom the case.

If in the case of the appendix, an organ whose presence could pose a health threat, and it's still left in the body until medically necessary to remove. Why is the foreskin, an organelle that has a similar profile to the appendix, routinely removed?

Because your appendix is an entire organ inside of your body, which is a slightly harder thing to remove than that dangly bit of skin right in the front. I'm sure if our appendix grew out of our belly button or something they'd remove it to. The simple fact is, prevention has become a staple of our modern health practices, and when the opportunity presents itself for preventative surgery, many will choose to take it.

And these "proven health benefits"? List them. If you mean the supposed lessening of the contraction of STDs, that theory while sound in principal, does not account for psychology. Those "STD proof" penises are attached to men who think they have a better chance of not catching STDs, that thought translates into more sexual behavior and riskier sexual behavior. The increase in exposure negates any possible benefit. So it's disingenuous to state there are proven health benefits when if fact there are only possible health benefits if any. And even if there are proven health benefits they'd have to be on the scale of the midas touch to justify electing the operation when there are only very few cases when not having a foreskin becomes necessary.

Medical Benefits:
Prevention of future foreskin problems
Reduction in various urinary infections
Reduces risk of penile cancer (and only when performed young)
Facilitates maintaining hygiene
And yes, despite your attempt at pseudo-psychology, the reduction of STD transmission is a benefit whether you like it or not.

Possible/subjective benefits:
Aesthetic
Religious
Cultural

Now. How parents impose their will on their children is most definitely of the interest to the state, and if you don't believe that just ask any Department of Social Services case worker, or the lady who took her 5 year old to the tanning salon...

You don't get to cause damage another person's body against their will. even if that damage is thought to be temporary. It doesn't matter if you're their parent or not. It doesn't matter if you consider it damage or not. At least that's how it is in Germany for now.

What you call "damage" someone else calls "protection," and so it DOES matter. I'm playing devil's advocate here, since I don't plan on circumcising my kids, but the fact of the matter is this issue is just not as black and white as you make it out to be.

 

[fetaby]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I'm playing devil's advocate here,

Me too, I don't really give a shit about circumcision.

 

[Nomenclature]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Don't Christians and Jews believe (according to Genesis 1:27) that "God created man in his own image"?

In that case, surely all Christians and Jews should be fundamentally opposed to anything which altered said image.

I'm hazy on this one, but I remember hearing something like this: Jews believe that God is perfect, but that humans and all other life on Earth are inherently imperfect in our design, because none of us are gods or divine beings. The god of the Old Testament loves blood sacrifices, so the blood letting of a circumcision is supposed to serve a purpose, and the scar it leaves is supposed to be a permanent symbol of the covenant that you have with your god.

Circumcision is unnecessary for Christians, because of the whole "Jesus" thing; the faith in his sacrifice is like a buffer, basically. His death is the symbolic sacrifice Christians use in order to have a spiritual connection to god, not circumcision.


I do know that the earliest archeological evidence of circumcision dates back to ancient Egypt, though; priests were caught up on cleanliness, and began bathing, removing all the hair on their bodies and having themselves circumcised because they believed that the afterlife would only want to communicate with them if they were "clean" enough. So, circumcision was originally intended for hygiene, apparently.

 

[jimmayy]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Jesus christ you americans sound dumb as fuck sometimes! It really leads me to believe that a part of the male frontal lobe is located in the foreskin!

All of you hypocritical bastards comparing Germany to the Nazis based on one lower court ruling that isn't binding, when you live in a country that in many areas is trying to deny black people the vote AGAIN!

Try visiting Germany some day it's a pretty open minded place on the whole.


And rising anti-semitism? Where exactly? I think some people can't recognise the difference between criticism of the Israeli government and genuine anti-semitism.

You take religious freedom to ridiculous extremes, in parts of the states a Pro-life doctor is not required to perform an abortion on a woman to save her life, all to protect "religious freedom". I have a close friend from the states who had to have an armed guard at the door of the abortion clinic just in case a religious nutter tried to blow the place up! As for religious freedom on the matter of circumcision, the act of circumcision is in honour of abraham, who when read through a secular lens, was a paranoid schizophrenic willing to murder his child based on the voices he heard inside his head.

The only reason why you are so keen on it stems from Dr. Kellogg in the nineteenth century, who suggested it as a way to stop young boys from masturbating, and the trend has continued ever since. There are very few groups who aren't jewish or muslim that do this now.

I don't normally get heated on this issue, but I think if it's not medically necessary why do it in the first place?

I couldn't care less if my bf is cut or uncut, but personally I don't like the way cut dicks look when flaccid.

 

[bankside]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

An uncut penis can be very different. As different as a vagina for some people.
So if you love someone should you force yourself to date despite being disgusted by his penis?

Maybe if I quote you making my point we'll finally get somewhere. A baby boy should get to decide for himself if he keeps his penis or whether he gets a vagina. Maybe the kid doesn't give a fuck about who may or may not find him attractive with or without his "vagina."

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I couldn't care less if my bf is cut or uncut, but personally I don't like the way cut dicks look when flaccid.

The way a cut one looks? An uncut one looks like some gross thing that slithered out from under a rotting carcass in a dark forest somewhere.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

And rising anti-semitism? Where exactly? I think some people can't recognise the difference between criticism of the Israeli government and genuine anti-semitism.

Antisemitism and white supremacy are on the rise all around the world. It would be nice if they weren't the fuel behind so many so-called political and simple social issues, but they are in many sectors.

If your argument were correct and its only Muslims and Jews who practice circumcision in German contemporary times, it would be for religious reasons generally.

So why have a court ruling of any sort on the matter? Allow those religious groups to practice their religious beliefs. An entire law and one which may sweep the entire nation of Germany? What is its GENUINE purpose or reason for being? Its not something which would - by your own testimony - affect most of the citizens of the country. It only really affects the practitioners of two (of the worlds most major) religions.

These secular German court rulings realistically should not exist. If anyone were to alter the hearts & minds of the two basic groups of citizens most affected by the banning or delay of circumcision, it should come from rabbis and imams.

On a basic level, where is the free democracy concept of a separation of church & state?

Otherwise, it is obviously an attack on religion - certain religions - within Germany. But its all dressed up to be fed to the public as something of a human rights issue.

I wonder though if open, liberal-minded, non-discriminatory Germany will have similar laws pertaining to all sorts of things which people do with their penises there. I've been to Germany and some of the stuff that citizens do even with their genitalia far out-weigh the religious practice of circumcision.

And did anyone ASK (practicing) adult male Jews in Germany if they're all ANGRY that they were circumcised as babies?

Were they involved in the creation and writing of this Cologne law? Are Jews running the courts there? Did they draft this measure? Did some angry Jewish judge or politician push for this measure? Did one even suggest it?

I have my suspicions that they weren't all that involved in this process or having a problem with their religious practice of circumcision.

So why is the Cologne court so on it?

Doesn't Germany have tons of other more pressing social issues to contend with that it needs to target a practice not practiced by any non-Jew/non-Muslim in their country?

 

[80KGold]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

If you're cut, you're cut; if you're not, you're not. This particular variation need not be a big deal.

But, German practitioners of the religious rite of circumcision may have their loophole (click-a tha link-a):

A fringe benefit of circumcision: prostate cancer protection

The analysis revealed that men who had been circumcised before their first sexual intercourse were 15-per-cent less likely to develop prostate cancer than uncircumcised men...

 

[jimmayy]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

The way a cut one looks? An uncut one looks like some gross thing that slithered out from under a rotting carcass in a dark forest somewhere.

They all look the same when hard, and yes I don't like the way a cut one looks when flaccid as you see a shrivelled raw looking head in front of you, at least that's hidden when you're uncut.

 

[jimmayy]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Antisemitism and white supremacy are on the rise all around the world. It would be nice if they weren't the fuel behind so many so-called political and simple social issues, but they are in many sectors.

If your argument were correct and its only Muslims and Jews who practice circumcision in German contemporary times, it would be for religious reasons generally.

So why have a court ruling of any sort on the matter? Allow those religious groups to practice their religious beliefs. An entire law and one which may sweep the entire nation of Germany? What is its GENUINE purpose or reason for being? Its not something which would - by your own testimony - affect most of the citizens of the country. It only really affects the practitioners of two (of the worlds most major) religions.

These secular German court rulings realistically should not exist. If anyone were to alter the hearts & minds of the two basic groups of citizens most affected by the banning or delay of circumcision, it should come from rabbis and imams.

On a basic level, where is the free democracy concept of a separation of church & state?

Otherwise, it is obviously an attack on religion - certain religions - within Germany. But its all dressed up to be fed to the public as something of a human rights issue.

I wonder though if open, liberal-minded, non-discriminatory Germany will have similar laws pertaining to all sorts of things which people do with their penises there. I've been to Germany and some of the stuff that citizens do even with their genitalia far out-weigh the religious practice of circumcision.

And did anyone ASK (practicing) adult male Jews in Germany if they're all ANGRY that they were circumcised as babies?

Were they involved in the creation and writing of this Cologne law? Are Jews running the courts there? Did they draft this measure? Did some angry Jewish judge or politician push for this measure? Did one even suggest it?

I have my suspicions that they weren't all that involved in this process or having a problem with their religious practice of circumcision.

So why is the Cologne court so on it?

Doesn't Germany have tons of other more pressing social issues to contend with that it needs to target a practice not practiced by any non-Jew/non-Muslim in their country?

Hungkee you still haven’t proven your point, you went off on a tangent about religious freedom. I don’t care particularly about the issue or about circumcision. How is anti-semitism rising globally?
Give me some examples.

Not only that but this IS NOT A LAW, it's a single lower court ruling making a non-binding decision RELATED TO THAT CASE ALONE. IT HAS NO FURTHER RAMIFICATIONS ON ANYONE ELSE. In fact in a seperate ruling a few years ago, a judge allowed a lebanese woman to be beaten by her husband and for him to get away with it and cited quranic passages to justify his treatment. All to protect religious freedom and that was in Germany too, again it was not binding and related to that case alone.

And as a gay man why do you care about religious freedom in the first place? Seeing as logically extended, this would give religious folks a right to discriminate against you.

And free country? MY ARSE, one with legalised corruption through lobbying and attempted voter discrimination laws, very funny...

 

[jimmayy]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

No, no, no....You misunderstood my point.

I didn't say that the lower court ruling WAS a rise in anti-Semitism.

I said that the lower court ruling might be PERCEIVED as antiSemitism by interested parties. There's a difference!

In addition to this, I believe the lower court ruling might be PERCEIVED as anti-Islamic by other interested parties.

My interest in this topic and this thread doesn't really concern circumcision per se. I am more interested in the sociological effects that will occur within Germany. What will happen? Will it bring about social unrest? Will interested parties go to other countries to get circumcision? Or will it fuel the rise of backalley butchers?

Worst of all, will some extremist Islamics decide that Germany has "crossed the line"?

No one knows yet.

It wasn't directed at you per say, it seems ridiculous to suggest that anti-semitism in the 1930's was exclusively a German phenomenon, in fact it was prevalent through out the west. And I think Sweden actually did make religious circumcision Illegal, are Jewish people going to think that anti-Semitism is in swedish DNA too.

Nowadays the very word anti-semitism gets bandied about way too often because it is levelled at anyone criticising the Israeli government (despite its horrendous human rights abuses), that is far more dangerous as that could one day relegitimise the term in the eyes of many.

ONCE AGAIN THE DECISION WAS NOT BINDING IT WAS A SINGLE LOWER COURT RULING.

 

[sixthson]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I think we are overdue for a thread on bisexuals now, aren't we??

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Hungkee you still haven’t proven your point, you went off on a tangent about religious freedom. I don’t care particularly about the issue or about circumcision. How is anti-semitism rising globally?
Give me some examples.

Not only that but this IS NOT A LAW, it's a single lower court ruling making a non-binding decision RELATED TO THAT CASE ALONE. IT HAS NO FURTHER RAMIFICATIONS ON ANYONE ELSE. In fact in a seperate ruling a few years ago, a judge allowed a lebanese woman to be beaten by her husband and for him to get away with it and cited quranic passages to justify his treatment. All to protect religious freedom and that was in Germany too, again it was not binding and related to that case alone.

And as a gay man why do you care about religious freedom in the first place? Seeing as logically extended, this would give religious folks a right to discriminate against you.

You're unaware of antisemitism in the world? And a growing or renewed attitude about it? Where do you live?

Here is a good primer on the subject: Denis MacShane - The New Anti-Semitism

And I don't think that its tangential to mention freedom of religion. If one wishes to argue "human rights" as this Cologne court edict puts forth, then an argument about religious freedom and a separation of what is church & state is perfectly legitimate.

And I know what this court decision is. If you read earlier posts, you'll see that we all know its coming from a Cologne court and must pass higher courts of the land in order for it to be German law.

But why have this measure at all? As of 2006, only 3500 Jews live in Cologne, Germany. Figuring half of that population is female, we're talking some Cologne court edict designed to affect all of approx. 1750 people?

Is nothing more going on Cologne that ought to be occupying the courts time?

That alone would suggest something about some line of antisemitism. Why attack the religious practice (which ought to be freely chosen) of what adds up to only approx. 1750 people in the area?

That is an awful narrow targeting of a highly specific population and practice in my opinion. And it isn't as if that small demographic called for or was involved in the drafting of this edict.

And people forget that IF a Jewish family chose not to have their sons circumcised before the age of 18, they could. I mean, it is always a freedom of choice option for them always. But they apparently want to practice their religious beliefs.

So actually, Jews in Cologne had MORE freedoms of choice prior to this edict than they do with it.

And while some would argue the "human rights" of it all, if their Jewish sons grow up to be "good" practicing Jewish men one day, they'll thank their parents for following religious practice & custom. They won't hate their parents (or their penises).


LOS ANGELES — Prosecutors say a Los Angeles mother helped her 14-year-old daughter smear human feces and scrawl swastikas and slurs in maple syrup at the houses of classmates.

A city attorney’s statement Monday says 43-year-old Catharine Whelpley has been charged with nine misdemeanors including vandalism, trespassing and contributing to the delinquency of minors.

Prosecutors say on April 3, Whelpley drove her daughter and friends to vandalize the house of a former friend from middle school with syrup, feces and toilet paper.

They say Whelpley then drove to another girl’s house, where they did the same thing, but Whelpley’s daughter also drew a swastika on the front door and wrote ‘Jew’ on a concrete path. Neighbors’ surveillance video led police to Whelpley.

L.A. mom charged with aiding daughter in swastika scrawl | Statesman Journal | statesmanjournal.com

 

[jimmayy]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

The Link between Circumcision and Erectile Dysfunction | Men's Health News