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Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

Age and foreskin status ...

  • Under 30 and cut

    Votes: 24 16.9%
  • Under 30 and uncut

    Votes: 21 14.8%
  • 30-50 and cut

    Votes: 36 25.4%
  • 30-50 and uncut

    Votes: 16 11.3%
  • Over 50 and cut

    Votes: 31 21.8%
  • Over 50 and uncut

    Votes: 14 9.9%
  • I can't tell whether I'm cut or uncut

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    142
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

No, but we're well on the way to allowing the government to slip a little computerized life-tracking chip under each newborn's skin, to track their whereabouts and spending at all times.

What?! (and apparently jub is a message-length size queen. It said mine was too short.)
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Holy moly. Crazy.

Personally I'm opposed to infant circumcision for purely aesthetic reasons but this is going a bit far. Some religions REQUIRE it as a sign of one's devotion to God. It seems to infringe on the religious liberty of people to rule like this.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Holy moly. Crazy.

Personally I'm opposed to infant circumcision for purely aesthetic reasons but this is going a bit far. Some religions REQUIRE it as a sign of one's devotion to God. It seems to infringe on the religious liberty of people to rule like this.

Then these people can choose to devote themselves to god when they can give consent instead of having it forced upon them by their parents. It seems to infringe on the human rights of a child to have their genitals cut and permanently altered without their consent.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

What?! (and apparently jub is a message-length size queen. It said mine was too short.)

I saw a piece on the tube the other night where they showed people these little chips that could be slipped under your skin permanently. They'd carry health records, all your personal data, and your financial information, all tidy and free from identity theft. A whole string of people thought it was a wonderful idea, allowing the government to protect them.

The message length thing -- yeah, I started a whole thread in Fun and Games based on that. Ever try to hold a conservation when each message is restricted to exactly ten letters? Some people got to be pros at it.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Then these people can choose to devote themselves to god when they can give consent instead of having it forced upon them by their parents. It seems to infringe on the human rights of a child to have their genitals cut and permanently altered without their consent.

Maybe the parents could be permitted to have a small tattoo done that says "Cut on the dotted line".

:lol:
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Hmm. Hitler's armies were free of Freedom of Religion. And they killed (by the millions), too.

Interesting how your rhetoric has that in common with the Nazi party at its height.

And you're really comparing apples to big, juicy mushroom heads here. Human slaughter vs a little off the top? And not even to mention the chasm between intents.

The problem with your reaction is nazism isn't around any more while religion is, fully and plainly.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Then these people can choose to devote themselves to god when they can give consent instead of having it forced upon them by their parents. It seems to infringe on the human rights of a child to have their genitals cut and permanently altered without their consent.

I'm inclined to agree. However, how many boys are going to say "no, I refuse to let you take a knife to my sensitive foreskin"? I think parents who are religious just want to ensure their sons conform to the religion and in a time they won't remember.

I can't imagine circumcision is a fun thing to go through.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Are there edicts though in Cologne (or most anywhere really) which require parents to practice or not practice certain things which affect or impact their children either positively or negatively?

Short of laws about corrupting minors or pushing baby strollers off of a 12 story roof, are parents in Cologne and elsewhere told it is a fundamental human rights offense to make their kids stupid by 5?

Are their laws which state that parents can't raise their kids only on cartoons and ignorance of who their President or Chancellor might be?

How about laws barring kids from ATVs which can cause them great bodily harm for life should there be an accident?

Or are there laws guaranteeing that kids will grow up to love their bodies? What about laws that one ugly man can't make a baby with an ugly woman because SCIENCE demonstrates that the odds will be high their baby will be ugly as well? And as that kid gets to 18, well, he surely might resent his ugly parents for creating such an ugly offspring.

And don't perhaps more people jump off of bridges for that than do any guys who take the plunge blaming it on their circumcision as a baby?

"Goodbye cruel world. Had I only my foreskin things would have been sooo very different! (glup, glup, glup)".

Or what about laws assuring that kids won't be raised in dirty hovels and poverty? Those are surely things within the control of the parents and/or the state. And again, I would suspect such affects the mental, emotional and physical development and well-being of many boys as much as moreso than does circumcision.

As for the USA, there seem to be a multitude of REALLY HAPPY circumcised guys who get tons of SEX. But then, maybe some of that also has to do with other factors unrelated to their foreskin.

Because the world and one's life isn't really, truly ruled by foreskin, you know. Otherwise we'd see NO drug addicts, suicides, pouty wusses or angry bastards among the uncircumcised.

Put THAT in your mouth and chew on it!
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Nobody is saying that if we stopped circumcision of children that all of the world's problems would go away. Nobody is saying that you can't be happy being circumcised as an infant and live a happy and healthy life. Nobody is saying that all circumcised men are miserable and feel that they were denied the right to their foreskin. Nobody is saying that uncircumcised men are perfectly happy and it's because they have foreskin.

What I am saying is that performing unnecessary surgery on children to remove healthy tissue with minimal health benefits without the consent of the individual is unethical and a violation of their human rights. You can dress it up as religious freedom or how it is more aesthetically pleasing or go on about what little health benefits there are but it will always be a violation of that individual's rights to their own body.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Nobody is saying that if we stopped circumcision of children that all of the world's problems would go away. Nobody is saying that you can't be happy being circumcised as an infant and live a happy and healthy life. Nobody is saying that all circumcised men are miserable and feel that they were denied the right to their foreskin. Nobody is saying that uncircumcised men are perfectly happy and it's because they have foreskin.

What I am saying is that performing unnecessary surgery on children to remove healthy tissue with minimal health benefits without the consent of the individual is unethical and a violation of their human rights. You can dress it up as religious freedom or how it is more aesthetically pleasing or go on about what little health benefits there are but it will always be a violation of that individual's rights to their own body.

But you continually omit the factor which is that this is primarily being done by most as a religious practice/tradition. If one is religious as a Jew, it is actually the dictate of GOD to have their boys circumcised. Whether or not one agrees with a particular religion (or any or all religions at all) is another thing.

The argument against circumcision makes way more sense when and if one can (and will) factor out religious tradition and mandate.

But again, as in this case, circumcision is directly related to religious belief, the picture becomes more complicated than merely stating there isn't great medical benefit to it. And for better or worse, the religious text demands that these circumcisions be done by the age of eight days.

God didn't give a lot of leeway there, I agree. But maybe He had his reasons.

And many people choose to go with His reasons moreso than they might the reasons of a secular court.

Because, once again, this isn't about circumcision vs non-circumcision.

Its about religion vs the state. And the state in a free country really runs the risk of stepping over its boundaries when not keeping itself separate.

On a side note: often the circumcision of females is given as the direct comparative to this issue of circumcising boys.

But the reasons and physical effects of female circumcision differ greatly on many levels. For girls, such circumcision usually leaves them without sensation (as is one of the primary reasons for its practice). Its a control of the female body and its ability to have sexual sensation.

Circumcision of the penis - unless botched - doesn't do that. And it also isn't its intent - even religiously.

In fact, one hears of more horror stories around the inability to perform sexually - or of grave pain and discomfort upon erection - from uncircumcised guys.

For every circumcised guy who might not like the look of his penis, there are as many uncircumcised guys who hate the look of their own (and who complain of the foreskin being so tight as to render them suffering and unable to perform or interact with sexual partners).

Also, we seem to omit the reality that people come to accept and love their bodies when its what they know. They can get over the "trauma" of many things. And especially when a penis might look like all of the other penises in their world, well, not every Jewish or Muslim guy is having the freak out which some uncircumcised guys apparently think. lol
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Just to throw in a different view...

My doctor friend once commented that it's not uncommon for babies to be born with an extra toe, just outside the little toe. He said that doctors snip the "extra" toe as a matter of course, and don't even mention it to the parents.

Now: is that immoral? should the extra toe be left, so the kid can make his/her own decision? Should the parents be asked, and their decision be respected?
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Just to throw in a different view...

My doctor friend once commented that it's not uncommon for babies to be born with an extra toe, just outside the little toe. He said that doctors snip the "extra" toe as a matter of course, and don't even mention it to the parents.

Now: is that immoral? should the extra toe be left, so the kid can make his/her own decision? Should the parents be asked, and their decision be respected?

Being born with a foreskin is not a birth defect.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

But you continually omit the factor which is that this is primarily being done by most as a religious practice/tradition. If one is religious as a Jew, it is actually the dictate of GOD to have their boys circumcised. Whether or not one agrees with a particular religion (or any or all religions at all) is another thing.

The argument against circumcision makes way more sense when and if one can (and will) factor out religious tradition and mandate.

But again, as in this case, circumcision is directly related to religious belief, the picture becomes more complicated than merely stating there isn't great medical benefit to it. And for better or worse, the religious text demands that these circumcisions be done by the age of eight days.

God didn't give a lot of leeway there, I agree. But maybe He had his reasons.

And many people choose to go with His reasons moreso than they might the reasons of a secular court.

Because, once again, this isn't about circumcision vs non-circumcision.

Its about religion vs the state. And the state in a free country really runs the risk of stepping over its boundaries when not keeping itself separate.

On a side note: often the circumcision of females is given as the direct comparative to this issue of circumcising boys.

But the reasons and physical effects of female circumcision differ greatly on many levels. For girls, such circumcision usually leaves them without sensation (as is one of the primary reasons for its practice). Its a control of the female body and its ability to have sexual sensation.

Circumcision of the penis - unless botched - doesn't do that. And it also isn't its intent - even religiously.

In fact, one hears of more horror stories around the inability to perform sexually - or of grave pain and discomfort upon erection - from uncircumcised guys.

For every circumcised guy who might not like the look of his penis, there are as many uncircumcised guys who hate the look of their own (and who complain of the foreskin being so tight as to render them suffering and unable to perform or interact with sexual partners).

Also, we seem to omit the reality that people come to accept and love their bodies when its what they know. They can get over the "trauma" of many things. And especially when a penis might look like all of the other penises in their world, well, not every Jewish or Muslim guy is having the freak out which some uncircumcised guys apparently think. lol

Freedom of religion should not grant you the ability to cut part of your child's genitals off without their consent. I'm all for people believing whatever and raising their child in whatever faith they desire but violating the human rights of your child is where your freedom of religion ends. The fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighs the fundamental rights of the parents.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Who said it was?

By the way you phrased your question and the fact that you posted it in a thread regarding circumcision, you seemed to imply that being born with an extra toe and having it removed was in some way related to being born with foreskin and having it removed.
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

By the way you phrased your question and the fact that you posted it in a thread regarding circumcision, you seemed to imply that being born with an extra toe and having it removed was in some way related to being born with foreskin and having it removed.

Exactly.



..
 
Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

The fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighs the fundamental rights of the parents.

that would be one theory, perspective and belief.

but then, says who?

because another theory, perspective and belief calls for the circumcision of boys by certain religions and by a certain age.

so which POWER is higher?

and again, we see this is about the state vs religion and not about anything circumcision.

because, technically, a court (or the state) could create mandates which dictate that it is wrong for a parent to impose his/her religion upon a child until that child is of his/her majority and choose it (or not) for himself.

written in a manner which wouldn't require surgery or bodily modification at all.

the court could simply state, for instance, that no CHRISTIAN parent has the right or authority to have their child (let alone an infant) baptized in their religion.

let the kid hit 18 and then decide for him/herself if baptism is "right" for them. After all, too much religion as a child can screw up their attitudes about self, sexuality and the universe for their whole life long (according to some).

but as many Christians believe (adamantly) that their infants need to be baptized as to be free of original sin (especially should they die suddenly in the night by choking on a crib part which was defective because the state overlooked the imports by china), I don't think that sort of state edict would go over any better than does one pertaining to circumcision.

so regardless of physical impact upon the unsuspecting child, we'd find ourselves in the same state vs religion (or freedom to practice one's religion) debate.
 
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