Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

The issue here is consent. If a girl is old enough to get pregnant and can consent to having an abortion I don't see what the problem is. It is her body thus it is her right what she does with her body. The issue with circumcision being performed on children is lack of consent.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

If this was posted before, excuse me.

This is from The American Medical Association (regarding circumcision and newborns)

Male newborn circumcision rate falls to lowest level - amednews.com

The American Academy of Pediatrics is rather reversing its neutral stance on circumcision and again touting its health benefits.

"...evidence has mounted that links higher prevalence of circumcision to lower rates of penile cancer, urinary tract infections, phimosis, balanitis and meatitis, as well as HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases."

That's neither a mohel nor I stating that.

So after a while, there is evidence right underneath peoples' noses. If they choose to disregard that evidence or such "options", that is something else. One may choose for oneself.

But the German laws would not even give someone those options. Whether they be derived from medical evidence or religious tradition.

And that would be a problem since it infringes upon a free persons human right to choose. And like it or not, a parent is often responsible for many (most) decisions for their children's benefit until they reach their majority. Its just the way that parenting works regardless of the subject at hand in most instances.

In fact, if anything, parents are more often charged with a crime when they WITHHOLD medical surgeries and treatments from their minor children.

So again, the laws can be all over the map when it comes to how and when parents are responsible for their child's physical self.

And for those who are religious, that would include their child's spiritual life and rites pertaining to the "proper" development of it relative to specific customs/traditions.

And what would be a generally liberal court in the land of the USA - San Francisco - struck down anti-circumcision measures.

Ironically citing all of the reasons opposite of those of the Cologne court.

The San Francisco courts decided it was a "ruling that it would have interfered with religious freedom and illegally regulated medical practice."

Again, not me and some mohel talking. But the courts in a land known for democracy, freedom and the protection of human rights.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

The issue here is consent. If a girl is old enough to get pregnant and can consent to having an abortion I don't see what the problem is. It is her body thus it is her right what she does with her body. The issue with circumcision being performed on children is lack of consent.

Is a twelve year old girl truly capable of consenting to an abortion? Does she know its far-reaching ramifications in the way that a 35 year old woman doesn't even always know either? And the legal bottom line would be that the pre-teen and teen girl would not be of her majority (of legal age).

 

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Is a twelve year old girl truly capable of consenting to an abortion? Does she know its far-reaching ramifications in the way that a 35 year old woman doesn't even always know either? And the legal bottom line would be that the pre-teen and teen girl would not be of her majority (of legal age).

Whether or not she knows all of the far-reaching ramifications, it is her body thus her choice to make. Let's look at this another way. What if this twelve year old girl wanted to keep the baby but both of her parents wanted her to get an abortion. Who's choice is it to make?

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

What if this twelve year old girl wanted to keep the baby but both of her parents wanted her to get an abortion. Who's choice is to make?

Well, I guess it all depends on how badly she may want that new Ipod or not.

 

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Well, I guess it all depends on how badly she may want that new Ipod or not.

Thanks for not answering the question. What if this girl can't be bought and is set on keeping the baby. Should the parents of a twelve year old girl be able to force her to get an abortion against her will?

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Thanks for not answering the question. What if this girl can't be bought and is set on keeping the baby. Should the parents of a twelve year old girl be able to force her to get an abortion against her will?

Well, who exactly would raise the infant? Who would be expected to support it or pay for all of its expenses? The 12-year-old girl?

How is she doing that? So even if she kept the pregnancy, perhaps she would be forced to give up the infant for adoption.

But then...what is she doesn't want to give it up for adoption? Is she supporting the infant or again are the girl's parents going to be held responsible for that since they are the parents and she is their child, a minor?

So perhaps the parents would be forced and their human rights violated as their position would rather force them to pay for and raise the bastard infant of their own little girl's unknown babydaddy.

And why would that be? That the parents of the girl would be held responsible for being the responsible party?

Because the girl is MINOR and unable to support and raise that infant whom she insisted on keeping.

The courts wouldn't let a 12 year old make these decisions and do these things ON HER OWN and without a fight. Because then even she takes a back seat to the welfare of someone much younger - her own baby.

So unless there is some master plan involving abortion, adoption or the legal & financial responsibility being thrust upon the girl's parents, such a pregnancy wouldn't be much of a decision the 12-year-old could be making on her own.

 

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

So since the financial burden is on the girl's parents it is their decision to make for her. Would it change the girl's ability to choose if she wanted an abortion and the parents refused to let her get one and were willing to support the baby financially?

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

So since the financial burden is on the girl's parents it is their decision to make for her. Would it change the girl's ability to choose if she wanted an abortion and the parents refused to let her get one and were willing to support the baby financially?

I would think there could be as many different answers to that dilemma as there would be such dilemmas. Because in some countries, people would be given the choice.

We forget that abortion is completely illegal in most cultures/countries. There would be no choice regulated by the government - other than to NOT have one.

In such countries, children are forced to bear pregnancies which sometimes nearly kill them. Or rabid parents push their daughter down a flight of stairs to cause a spontaneous OOPSIE home abortion. Sometimes parents HIDE their daughter until she gives birth and then mom (grandmom) suddenly has herself a new baby (and the 12 year old has herself a new little brother).

But again, the argument about legal choices would only apply in those nations where legal CHOICES are even available.

In most nations, its a moot point.

If the girl wanted an abortion in a nation in which abortion is legal? Then she may be able to get some ACLU or Planned Parenthood attorney to fight her legal battle to do so - against the will of her parents. But again, that would support the concept that liberal human rights groups would fight to allow for surgeries and procedures to be done on a minor. And not because it would be deemed medically necessary.

 

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

So we've established that circumcision of males is comparable to the removal of extra toes and abortion. Tell me why can't we compare the ethics of genital cutting in boys to the ethics of genital cutting in girls which is illegal in most Western nations.

 

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Because they are very different procedures

More different than abortion? More different than removing extra toes? I just don't understand how people are bringing up the ethics of abortion in a debate about circumcision to back up their beliefs but when I bring up the ethics of female genital cutting it's considered a different procedure.

 

[HoodedRat]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

So we've established that circumcision of males is comparable to the removal of extra toes and abortion. Tell me why can't we compare the ethics of genital cutting in boys to the ethics of genital cutting in girls which is illegal in most Western nations.

Probably because many guys here couldn't care less about female genitalia, but they are obsessed with their own shallow personal sexual preferences regarding the appearance of male genitals.

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

There is NO way that someone can be against the legality of circumcision but for the legality of abortion past the first few weeks of conception.

I would agree with you. However "first few weeks" again would be the point of discussion. When is a clump of cells " a life"? And as I have said multiple times, this is an entirely different discussion. Nobody argues whether a newborn is a living human being or not.

Imho, if you still want a comparison the jehova's witness ban on blood donations is the most proper one.

Yet hardly anybody cared to check the law for his country on that ..

 

[Callum]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I think it should be criminal. While I don't mind being circumcised, I would have enjoyed the right to choose.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I would agree with you. However "first few weeks" again would be the point of discussion. When is a clump of cells " a life"? And as I have said multiple times, this is an entirely different discussion. Nobody argues whether a newborn is a living human being or not.

Imho, if you still want a comparison the jehova's witness ban on blood donations is the most proper one.

Yet hardly anybody cared to check the law for his country on that ..[/QUOTE

The analogy to abortion isn't strictly about the morality of the removal of a fetus (whether considered life or not).

Some guys (cough) seem to forget that abortion is a surgery performed on a very real, live female. It requires a girl to hop up onto the table as to undergo a "procedure".

It would be that aspect of abortion mostly which has its relevancy to the circumcision debate.

The desired goal in having an abortion is secondary and a different discussion altogether.

But the surgery which is the abortion has a direct relationship to this conversation since it could be performed on minor girls, is typical an unnecessary surgery and runs with it many risks. Yet courts would defend one's right to have one - citing all of the human and civil rights issues that the Cologne courts (in this instance) would use to the contrary when regarding circumcision.

The removal of the fetus though isn't the main point in bringing up abortion. Its about the surgery performed on the host body of that fetus.

Although...if one wished to get deeper and more controversial, one could begin to argue the fact that courts will often defend the severe outcome of such a surgery over what amounts really to one little snip of some extra skin on a baby's penis.

But we don't even have to get to that debate as one can simply compare apples to apples which are the surgeries themselves performed on minors (one with or without its merits defended by human rights arguments while the other is banned and made illegal despite its merits or not).

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

But the surgery which is the abortion has a direct relationship to this conversation since it could be performed on minor girls, is typical an unnecessary surgery and runs with it many risks. Yet courts would defend one's right to have one

NOBODY denies anyone the "right" to have a circumcision. It is just ruled that the person in question has to give consent. A child cannot give consent. There are laws which specifically target this. So, again, your abortion comparison fails tremendously.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

NOBODY denies anyone the "right" to have a circumcision. It is just ruled that the person in question has to give consent. A child cannot give consent. There are laws which specifically target this. So, again, your abortion comparison fails tremendously.

Have you read earlier posts which address that very issue? Many minor girls undergo abortions. The argument in courts is that a minor cannot consent. You are claiming that a prospective 12 year old can consent as though she were an adult.

And that just isn't the reality. She is also a child and a minor.

And again, she may or may not even understand what an abortion truly is simply because she could undergo one out of diapers.

 

[bort138]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Although...if one wished to get deeper and more controversial, one could begin to argue the fact that courts will often defend the severe outcome of such a surgery over what amounts really to one little snip of some extra skin on a baby's penis.

I suppose in countries where female genital cutting is still practiced they are just removing "extra" skin as well. Foreskin is not extra. All baby boys are born with foreskin. Foreskin is no more extra than ear lobes. The way you casually refer to circumcision as just "one little snip" demonstrates to me your unfamiliarity with the serious risks and complications that can arise from this procedure.

Just like any medical operation they are risks. So why would parents knowingly subject their child to such a painful and unnecessary risk especially at such a vulnerable age? Complications from circumcision are rare but they do happen and are often times far more serious than any condition that could develop from an uncircumcised penis. If the health and well-being of the child is the primary concern of the parents, allowing circumcision is a failure on their part.

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Have you read earlier posts which address that very issue? Many minor girls undergo abortions. The argument in courts is that a minor cannot consent. You are claiming that a prospective 12 year old can consent as though she were an adult.

A doctor in Germany will only perform an abortion on a minor girl if
- it is medically necessary due to pregnancy posing a life-danger to the mother
- BOTH parents and the girl consent.

Again, the question whether a minor can consent or not is an entirely different discussion with own laws and rulings just dealing with this. We can all agree that an infant can NOT consent (and that's like it in every law). One could debate about the example of the philipines that some guys brought up - but that also would be a question about the age/ability of consent. Not about parents deciding for unconsentual infants. So stop grasping straws and get back to topic.

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Complications from circumcision are rare but they do happen and are often times far more serious than any condition that could develop from an uncircumcised penis. If the health and well-being of the child is the primary concern of the parents, allowing circumcision is a failure on their part.

And if you google "botched circumcision" you will see a lot of horrific pics of circumcisions that didn't even go wrong per se, but the end result in the adult is anything but nice to look at. And some studies speak of 10%+ of circumcisions having those late effects.
Anyway - I even do believe that many parents to believe that they are doing the best for their kids. The more important is it, to make the doctors take responsibility for their deeds.