Oh No! It's Another Thread About Circumcision.

[bankside]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Imho, if you still want a comparison the jehova's witness ban on blood donations is the most proper one.

Yet hardly anybody cared to check the law for his country on that ..

Oh, easy enough. In Canada they take the child away from the parent stupid enough to refuse a blood tranfusion. Yoink. Many children have been saved by this methodology.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

@hungkee Abortion is the choice of the minor and is about removing viable tissue. Circumcision is not the choice of the minor (usually) and is about removing tissue that has no real use and can actually cause harm in some cases. Sure, I see the analogy completely....

Polydactyl: I get that it's a birth defect. However, allowing for that, you're removing essentially a useless section for possible medical benefits. Even the reason it's a birth defect is more for cosmetic reasons than major health issues. So the analogy fits better....

I'll bring this up again. How is equating foreskin with polydactylism fair game but comparing genital cutting between boys and girls different? Is genital cutting between boys and girls really that different? Both involve cutting of the genitals without consent. Double standard much?

Nope. FGM creates a number of health issues while eliminating some of the use of the affected area, and is used on an actually important part of the body. Read: Major bad juju. Male circumcision, on the other hand, eliminates a piece of skin with little if any actual use, and whose removal not only has few complications but offers some decent medical benefits. In light of that, it's two different things.

RG

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Seems to me that those in this thread who are in favor of infant male circumcision are in favor of it because they themselves love cut cock period. Quit imposing your cock cut status preference on infant boys.

That's fine. But who's gunna tell Yahweh now?

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

3. Why don't you ask a German Jew or a German Muslim if he thinks this is "government vs. religion"? I would love to hear what they think about it.

Don't have to. They've not only been pretty clear about it, but resent the intrusion of government into their affairs. They've even been pretty explicit about pointing out that you'd think Germany would be especially wary of doing so....

RG

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Of course those affected by it don't think highly of it. Did we need 7 pages to come to this conclusion

In anyway .. I love the example of the labia-blood drawing that was mentioned. Didn't even know about this religious practice. A religious practice that is banned in the US. So if this would be true, it is "worse" than a ban on religious circumcision, as drawing a bit of blood has no permanent consequences at all. Any further reading on this?

Also it's cute how everybody ignored the canadian solution for the jehova's witness ban on blood transfusion ..

 

[jasoncrew03]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Has the Jewish community of Germany issued an official response to the decision yet? I would really like to see what they have to say about it.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Also it's cute how everybody ignored the canadian solution for the jehova's witness ban on blood transfusion ..

We didn't ignore it; that's been standard in other countries, or at least the US for years. Although some nice advances have come of it, the parents can still get slammed, especially if the kid dies because of it...

RG

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Has the Jewish community of Germany issued an official response to the decision yet? I would really like to see what they have to say about it.

Most of them see it as a ruling targeting them (although there are more muslims and the reason for this trial was a muslim doctor ..), some argue that it is a surgery with a danger but that vaccination also bears risk but is mandatory. A very bad comparison if you ask me .. but i am sure some of the US guys will be heads over heels for this, since there are more than enough antic-vaccination weirdos there, too. Some more liberal jews already mentioned that in parts of the faith, the rite of circumcision has been critically debated and that it might be a possibility to raise the age for it to 14.

By the way - 14 is the "coming of age" in terms of religion in Germany. But already a child older than 12 may not be raised in a faith against his will.

Oh and something else .. I had quite a good chuckle when I read an interview with a turkish doctor who was defending circumcision. He was asked about what he believes is a good age for circumcision and he says that the child should be older than a year. When he was asked about the jewish tradition of cutting the kids at the 8th day, he said that he wouldn't do that because that "irresponsible and dangerous". So much about asking for respect of barbaric rites, yet saying the same about almost the same rite just in another faith ..

 

[Corny]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

We didn't ignore it; that's been standard in other countries, or at least the US for years. Although some nice advances have come of it, the parents can still get slammed, especially if the kid dies because of it...

Yeah, but all those people who say that banning circumcision is an attack on religious freedom ignore it. Probably because it's also an attack on religious freedom, just this time it hits the jehova's witnesses who apparently don't count as a religion

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Yeah, but all those people who say that banning circumcision is an attack on religious freedom ignore it.

A lot of have ignored probably because it was a given. You're trying to add controversy where there is none. A lot of religious rituals with known life-threatening issues are banned, but they are such a part of society now that they aren't necessarily ignored, just taken for granted. Others have risks, however minor, but no other use (such as the labia draining and the blood brother ritual). Circumcision just seems to be one of those things that every generation the medical community debates.

Probably because it's also an attack on religious freedom, just this time it hits the jehova's witnesses who apparently don't count as a religion

Not really. It's just a known issue...

RG

 

[bankside]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

We didn't ignore it; that's been standard in other countries, or at least the US for years. Although some nice advances have come of it, the parents can still get slammed, especially if the kid dies because of it...

RG

I'm not sure I've explained the Canadian solution clearly: we end the legal custody of the crazy parents, put the child in the care of provincial child protection authorities, and ensure the child receives a blood transfusion whilst ignoring the religious nonsense spewed by the parents. Custody then reverts to the parents in most cases.

That is itself a nice advance, period. Not sure what you mean by "parents getting slammed;" they aren't part of the picture at that point.

 

[bankside]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I think the thing to remember is that most of our opinions in here don't count. We are looking at an issue from the outside, at a situation that doesn't concern us. In a way, it's NOOFB.

The people who are directly affected by the decision have the only opinion that really counts. Of course, that includes the OP, who lives in Germany and is affected by German law.

But it also affects Jewish and Muslim people who live in Germany. Their opinion counts, too, for the same reason.

Good ideas, or bad, do not have national borders.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

I'm not sure I've explained the Canadian solution clearly: we end the legal custody of the crazy parents, put the child in the care of provincial child protection authorities, and ensure the child receives a blood transfusion whilst ignoring the religious nonsense spewed by the parents. Custody then reverts to the parents in most cases.

And do the parents ever refuse to take the child back because it's become "contaminated" or "a demon"?

 

[bankside]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

And do the parents ever refuse to take the child back because it's become "contaminated" or "a demon"?

In other words, are the parents not just inept and delusional, but complete monsters? I don't know about the Jehova's. But some of the Mormons documented in 8: The Mormon Proposition were certainly relieved that their gay kids killed themselves because, better dead than gay.

If an innocuous and straightforward blood transfusion saves a child not only from death, but from a life with such monsters, then it is fortuitous indeed.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

In other words, are the parents not just inept and delusional, but complete monsters? I don't know about the Jehova's. But some of the Mormons documented in 8: The Mormon Proposition were certainly relieved that their gay kids killed themselves because, better dead than gay.

If an innocuous and straightforward blood transfusion saves a child not only from death, but from a life with such monsters, then it is fortuitous indeed.

Well, I'm relieved you don't know of any. But there was a case recently where the authorities took a kid from his parents and had a life-saving surgery done -- and the parents refused to take him back. It was chilling partly because I'd just re-watched a Babylon 5 where the exact same thing had happened; the doctor saved a kid's life by surgery, which to them meant the soul had fled, so whatever was there had to be a demon. I couldn't believe people in real life would do that.

I think it's automatic now in Oregon that if you're not doing all reasonable measures for a such kid, the state steps in.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

After seven pages of this "debate", I have an idea. Why doesn't someone simply invent glue-on foreskin?

It could become the rage.

Like Lee's Press-on Nails, young men who were, er, "scalped" at birth could merely hide their shame, mutilation - and religion - by slapping on a temporary glue-on piece of flesh-colored latex.

It could even come in FLAVORS with Microban technology built right in.

That way, these misfits of the madman's surgical tent could fit in when swinging schlong in German gay health spas.

And yet, with one simple tug, they could remove the foreskin toupee when its time to attend their nephew's all-nude Bar Mitzvah swim party.

I think I've come up with the solution and all debate here can now end.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Argh!

I was hoping no one would post that notion....

 

[fetaby]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

After seven pages of this "debate", I have an idea. Why doesn't someone simply invent glue-on foreskin?

It could become the rage.

Like Lee's Press-on Nails, young men who were, er, "scalped" at birth could merely hide their shame, mutilation - and religion - by slapping on a temporary glue-on piece of flesh-colored latex.

It could even come in FLAVORS with Microban technology built right in.

That way, these misfits of the madman's surgical tent could fit in when swinging schlong in German gay health spas.

And yet, with one simple tug, they could remove the foreskin toupee when its time to attend their nephew's all-nude Bar Mitzvah swim party.

I think I've come up with the solution and all debate here can now end.

There may just be something of the sort already in existence...

 

[pat grimshaw]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

Two doctors from the Jewish Hospital (in Berlin, I think) were interviewed on TV tonight.

They were extremely anxious and angry at the court decision. They said they were being persecuted. They said circumcision is 'The basis of who we are', 'It is the most important part of our faith'.

There was also a very unhappy shopkeeper who sold the miniature robes that the baby wears at the ceremony. They were very trizzy-looking.

 

[hungkee]

Re: Circumcision of boys is a crime

There may just be something of the sort already in existence...

Guys could keep a box of them in their car's glove compartment - right next to their funny fake mustache. That way, they'd be prepared at any time for any occasion.