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'Oh! Susanna' songwriter's statue removed from Pittsburgh park after criticism

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I mean I guess you guys are arguing we should erect statues of Hitler or something like that.

You've given them too much credit; people rarely travel to the logical conclusion of the fallacious argument they're espousing. People who are not uncomfortable just want tomorrow to be much like yesterday, and damn the consequences. Describe it as the banality of evil, if you like.

I have a quote somewhere, a particular favorite, wonder if I can find it.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

You've given them too much credit; people rarely travel to the logical conclusion of the fallacious argument they're espousing.

This is true.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

If people need a statue to remind them there was a dark history such as slavery in our Country, they’re already lost. People should be taught this, not rely on a statue. But let’s not pretend that the statement about removing the statue means we’re erasing knowledge of slavery, that’s just being willfully ignorant.

I mean there are actual instances of practices in schools where they are trying to hide parts of history, but again let’s not dumb down the issue and pretend that’s what’s going on here.

I mean I guess you guys are arguing we should erect statues of Hitler or something like that.

If you read my post I said to take them down and erase all history, what does that have to do with Hitler???
I say go for Mt.Rushmore....
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

"I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee..."

Perhaps that was what inspired the statue. The man in the song was not a slave.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Stephen Foster was inspired by the singing and songs of the slaves. That's what the statue shows. What's wrong with showing a black man playing a banjo? Isn't it showing the great contribution that enslaved black men and women made to American music, and therefore the music of the world?

I thought you'd have a more nuanced and educated eye when it came to deconstructing the iconogaphy of a piece of sculpture or other work of art.

Maybe it is that you don't fully grasp the density of symbolism and composition in this case because you are too geographically distant from the historical context, which is very understandable.

But just like in other countries, a statue is not just a statue. It can be imbued with many layers of intent and meaning depending on the figures, the positioning, the clothing or lack of it, etc.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

"I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee..."

Perhaps that was what inspired the statue. The man in the song was not a slave.

Wrong. At least from the particular song they used as their inspiration. You know, a couple seconds of google search would clear that right up.

The ditty was titled 'Uncle Ned', and it was specific in the fact that he was a slave. That includes the artist of the statue & the committee that gave him the description of what they envisioned it to be worked in the metal.

It would probably help if artists didn't have a 'habit' of incorporating unexperienced perceptions into their work. Unfortunately it seems to be a very human trait.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Listening to and watching blacks go from issue to issue reminds me of people that I have know who were always ill, when I saw them I knew I would hear of their disease du jour. You couldn't convince them that they weren't sick, you just nodded your head and listened.
My mother was like that, then one day she developed some horrible pain, my brother who had been a medic took her pulse and said she was fine, thinking it was another phcosymatic episode. My mother then called me at work, I went home and saw some serious distress and fear on her face and took her to the hospital. It turned out to be pancreatitus, she nearly died.

Yes, I get why some blacks would find some statues offensive, but when the statues are gone it will be a new complaint that will manifest, after that another and on it goes. Never ending cries of racism and unfair. But, I find that while I can do nothing to correct history and am not responsible for history, I have to listen to the complaint of the day.
Well, that complaint and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Star Bucks. But, don't look to me to take it seriously. I have been called a racist scumbag on this forum, along with just a plain racist. I feel little sympathy for those who drink from the cess pool of hatred and embitterment, but at the end, a person names their own poison.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

The ditty was titled 'Uncle Ned', and it was specific in the fact that he was a slave. That includes the artist of the statue & the committee that gave him the description of what they envisioned it to be worked in the metal.

What I mean is, if you contrast it with his other popular works, the original verse about 500 dead in a crash from Old Susanna's overall lonesomeness doesn't quite fit. Statue looks a bit too relaxed and happy, No?

Whereas the physical description given from the committee about what they were looking for fit Uncle Ned rather well. And given the overall 'beneficent' impression of the act of slavery people were trying to whitewash with, wordplay fully intended, that statue contains no ambiguousness in itself.

Unlike the lyrics to the work of Uncle Ned, which do not tout Happy & Smiling, even though the statue of the black man fits to a T the physical description listed. That people scuttled off with Foster's work and embellished it with the tone of the time in ways that were intentional on their part should be noted. Nowhere in either Old Susanna or Uncle Ned was the black man happy while strumming a banjo to the tune of slavery.

I jumped aboard the telegraph and traveled down the river,
Electric fluid magnified, and killed five hundred Nigger.
The bullgine bust, the horse ran off, I really thought I’d die;
I shut my eyes to hold my breath—Susanna, don’t you cry.

And here's the lyrics to Uncle Ned. It seems to be both a problematic lamentation and the odd juxtaposition of death as reward. Not surprising considering the time period.

http://utc.iath.virginia.edu/minstrel/ounedfr.html
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Listening to and watching blacks go from issue to issue reminds me of people that I have know who were always ill, when I saw them I knew I would hear of their disease du jour. You couldn't convince them that they weren't sick, you just nodded your head and listened.
My mother was like that, then one day she developed some horrible pain, my brother who had been a medic took her pulse and said she was fine, thinking it was another phcosymatic episode. My mother then called me at work, I went home and saw some serious distress and fear on her face and took her to the hospital. It turned out to be pancreatitus, she nearly died.

Yes, I get why some blacks would find some statues offensive, but when the statues are gone it will be a new complaint that will manifest, after that another and on it goes. Never ending cries of racism and unfair. But, I find that while I can do nothing to correct history and am not responsible for history, I have to listen to the complaint of the day.
Well, that complaint and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Star Bucks. But, don't look to me to take it seriously. I have been called a racist scumbag on this forum, along with just a plain racist. I feel little sympathy for those who drink from the cess pool of hatred and embitterment, but at the end, a person names their own poison.

Oh, knock it off already. Crack a damned tome once in a while, your learnin' would do others a world of good.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Oh, knock it off already. Crack a damned tome once in a while, your learnin' would do others a world of good.

Tell those who can't get a job to crack a book, I always made a good living in a variety of fields.
Tell those who need to bring up race in a gay forum to knock it off. The black culture in America is know by all to be misogynistic and homophobic. I have heard blacks tell gays to "not hitch their cart to the civil rights movement".

If some would grow a pair and man up it would do others a world of good.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

For your last sentence, you need to get out more if you're under the impression the shit today hasn't been both critiqued and boycotted. The differences are the sense of time and the context; it's much easier to spot water when you're not swimming in it, said the diver to the shark.

Hot Topics isn't a cave. It is getting out. We have much more protesting here than in any 3D place I have ever visited.

And that supposedly critiqued and boycotted language is used daily by our most vociferous SJW here. That's why there's an "N" word but no "B" word, because Bitches' Lives don't Matter.

We have a few SJW sentinels on duty 24/7. Whereas a statue which doesn't actively repress anyone today, although offensive to some, is a hot topic, there isn't any parallel thread on the treatment of women in modern pop music, which is indeed played 24/7 in this country, reaches a vast audience, and actively promotes the continued denigration of women in every utterance. Yet, somehow that injury isn't a thing, isn't an outrage worth calling out, isn't the victimization howl that calls the dog pack.

It's because it doesn't fit the requirements. It holds contemporary culture up for the same scrutiny the revivalists are expecting the past to be judged by.

For a supposed symbol to have power in any meaningful way, it would have to be known and understood by those living around it. Like most of history, you'd find only a few people, in the single digit percents, who even know that the statue is Stephen Foster in that town, before the protest, and farrrrrr fewer of the generations under 50. If it's propaganda today, regardless of what it may or may not have been in 1900, it's doing worse than a mass mailing for returns.

But, focusing on it will no doubt improve conditions for black Americans, and bring a more harmonious society into being, as all the generator of hatred and contempt is hauled away. Stalin is dead. Stalin is dead.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Hot Topics isn't a cave. It is getting out. We have much more protesting here than in any 3D place I have ever visited.

Ah. 'Fraid not. A few people pointing things out in an online forum doesn't hold a vigil's candle to a warm body in a line. Have you never been in the presence of a protest or a picket line? Really?

'....Whereas a statue which doesn't actively repress anyone today"

Oooooh, mistaken again. What do you think it does to, say, a kid's self-esteem to see a particularly false representation of reality that does considerably more than gesture to an 'overall beneficence of slavery' in a place of honor? History is 'living'; it doesn't tend to die with the individual despite humanity loving to pretend otherwise.

A failure to critique misogyny in music does not mean there is no point to be had with other's clinging to rosily racist depictions while insisting that they're benign ....because the 'past is in the past', despite the past smelling eerily like the present.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Wrong. At least from the particular song they used as their inspiration. You know, a couple seconds of google search would clear that right up.

I've never heard of the song 'Old Uncle Ned', and I had to Google it, but I could Google it only because you told me the name, and I had no idea that Ned was the inspiration for that statue. My suggestion was about 'O Susanna'. Uncle Ned may have been a slave, but the banjo player in 'O Susanna' wasn't.

Goggle would not and could not have cleared that up for me, so please pardon my ignorance. There are one or two things I don't know, and Uncle Ned was one of them.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I've never heard of the song 'Old Uncle Ned', and I had to Google it, but I could Google it only because you told me the name, and I had no idea that Ned was the inspiration for that statue. My suggestion was about 'O Susanna'. Uncle Ned may have been a slave, but the banjo player in 'O Susanna' wasn't.

Goggle would not and could not have cleared that up for me, so please pardon my ignorance. There are one or two things I don't know, and Uncle Ned was one of them.

Sorry about that, I tend to forget I'm used to active research - it's probably easier for me to know how to research than it is for someone giving their best effort who, I often forget, may be unused to it. I only know a little of Foster. Most of it, including the finding of Uncle Ned, was done during perhaps a half hour, maybe forty minutes on-again/off-again last night on Google. I was listening to a movie and playing a game as well, or it wouldn't have taken me quite so long.

Technically speaking, the statue could point to a few of his popular songs (or to all of them, but I don't believe the latter is likely. The reasoning there, however, has not much to do with Ned-the-song, it's that he wrote close to three hundred works and only 20 or so mentioned black people. Since nobody describes a writer by what their music doesn't mention and The White Man was the default ...you get the idea.

But to narrow the probability down, consider the time period, the lyrics, the statue's physicality and that in 1900 white people were actively pushing some very specific concepts about the recent past that were, uh, let's call them unashamedly vicious lies involving motive, intent and personal liability.

It didn't occur to me Old Susanna would honestly be people's first guess. Sure, it was popular and still well known today, plus there's a banjo mention - but the railroad car crash is left out of the verse collection so when people imagine singing it, they often imagine Foster singing it, since the music usually comes on the heels of a brief Americana history lesson.

What people don't tend to imagine, I think, is an old, toothless, wrinkled bald black man singing about true love and travel as if he were twenty and train hopping. In 1900 the theme goin' in statuary seemed to be 'beneficent slavery'. That banjo player ain't wearin' travelling clothes - that it's likely to reference Old Susanna instead of the Happy Slave Social Meme of the time is, I'm saying .....slim. I try not to take the mention of a single item depicted (banjo in this case) as indicative of intent, particularly for older works; so much of the context is either never taught or forgotten.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I think it’s funny that people are basically claiming that it’s no big deal about a statue but are making a big deal about people having a problem with it.


Hmm.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Tell those who can't get a job to crack a book, I always made a good living in a variety of fields.
Tell those who need to bring up race in a gay forum to knock it off. The black culture in America is know by all to be misogynistic and homophobic. I have heard blacks tell gays to "not hitch their cart to the civil rights movement".

Learning has nothing to do with receiving a paycheck. Your actual job, or what should've been your job both before and after your retirement, is to better yourself. What people pay you to do may or may not have anything to do with that learning process. You're championing intellectual (and emotional by extension) laziness.

You have zero room to claim that your irritation with the finer distinctions in offensive commentary are all to be allocated to black people on this forum who point out the intersections of race and sexuality. That's not how honest types of discussion work. Besides, some of those 'not analogous' critiques have been extremely accurate - they're not all couched in homophobia.

There's also that the misogyny and homophobia in music isn't worse in the black community. That's actually a rather racist stereotype. Shall I bring up some oldies-but-goodies of the whiter persuasion that highlight misogyny and sexism? I know there's oodles of popular lyrics still being written off unintentionally here because the critique of them rarely comes from men, white or otherwise.

'Tell those who need to bring up race in a gay forum to knock it off'.

You seem to have particular difficulties acknowledging someone can be both black and gay. That's on you.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I think it’s funny that people are basically claiming that it’s no big deal about a statue but are making a big deal about people having a problem with it.

'They think they want good government and justice for all, Vimes, yet what is it they really crave, deep in their hearts? Only that things go on as normal and tomorrow is pretty much like today.'
-Pratchett

--Barring (of course), generally speaking, one's own social ills.

---People who cherish their own ignorance do not get to have an informed opinion. Fact of life.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Learning has nothing to do with receiving a paycheck. Your actual job, or what should've been your job both before and after your retirement, is to better yourself. What people pay you to do may or may not have anything to do with that learning process. You're championing intellectual (and emotional by extension) laziness.

You have zero room to claim that your irritation with the finer distinctions in offensive commentary are all to be allocated to black people on this forum who point out the intersections of race and sexuality. That's not how honest types of discussion work. Besides, some of those 'not analogous' critiques have been extremely accurate - they're not all couched in homophobia.

There's also that the misogyny and homophobia in music isn't worse in the black community. That's actually a rather racist stereotype. Shall I bring up some oldies-but-goodies of the whiter persuasion that highlight misogyny and sexism? I know there's oodles of popular lyrics still being written off unintentionally here because the critique of them rarely comes from men, white or otherwise.

'Tell those who need to bring up race in a gay forum to knock it off'.

You seem to have particular difficulties acknowledging someone can be both black and gay. That's on you.

"Learning has nothing to do with receiving a paycheck." Well, then why go to school? Are you serious? I spent years teaching those with far more "formal" education than I have simple things, like fractions and decimals. You have no clue as to how many people don't know how to read a tape measure. With my 9th grade education I had to explain what symmetrically opposite meant to guys with 2-4 years of college.

Then I loved having to tell a few people what unicameral meant. These "educated" people stumbled at percentages and don't even mention Trig. I always wondered how in the hell they received a diploma. Honestly, this post of yours is one of the most asinine things that I have ever read in hot topics.

"You're championing intellectual (and emotional by extension) laziness." Because I think for myself? Because I don't join the cause? Oh, I dare to disagree with some liberal professor somewhere, so I am lazy. I would submit to you that those who regurgitate what they have heard and then chant the mantra of the day are lazy.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Tell those who can't get a job to crack a book, I always made a good living in a variety of fields.
Tell those who need to bring up race in a gay forum to knock it off. The black culture in America is know by all to be misogynistic and homophobic. I have heard blacks tell gays to "not hitch their cart to the civil rights movement".

If some would grow a pair and man up it would do others a world of good.

So, you are implying that a "gay forum" should not include anything other than White cultural references? And that "gay" is a synonym for "White"? And when gays who are Black bring up issues of racism within the gay community, or historical references to America's (obvious) racism it's just people weeping for themselves instead of pointing out injustices and how to address turning that into Justice?

I wonder if you would stand in front of a crowd of White women and say to them, you complain too much about men sexually harassing you and the fact that you were raped. And I purposely said WHITE women, since we wouldn't want race to be part of that conversation. So, lets, just for the sake of argument, say that you said that to a group of White women (just so we can ignore the race part-for the moment). What do you think your chances of survival are?
My thought?

You wouldn't get out of the building alive.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

fabulouslyghetto said:
A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

The term “reverse racism” does not appear in the NBC News article linked in the opening post. Do you have another source that validates the thread title?
 
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