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'Oh! Susanna' songwriter's statue removed from Pittsburgh park after criticism

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I agree with you about the Mark Twain books, though I never read those stories, I am doubting they have racist intentions at all. So bannin or altering them doesn’t really do any good.

They don't have any intentions except what people read into them. The book causing the most controversy (and the one that has been banned from many school libraries) is 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn'. Some people had a huge problem with the relationship between Huck and the escaped slave, Jim. I'm sure a lot of those people branded Jim as a predator. I don't think they could accept a white boy being friends with a black man.

Funnily enough, 'To Kill a Mockingbird' was banned because a lot of people felt that it was racist and promoted white supremacy. Perhaps it's because the white jury, despite all the evidence presented by Atticus, convicted Tom of raping Mayella Ewell even though Mayella's injuries were caused by a left-handed man (her father was left-handed) and Tom Robinson's left arm was paralysed.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

An uncharitable reading considering white people did call it reverse racism. It's a favored concept you can see in the comments section which was also referred to in the original post.

You buggers realize that quite a bit of racist behavior is unconscious, right? Pointing out the behavioral/viewpoint discrepancy is not an attack on how good you try to be as a human being, it's just a matter of course. Shit. Happens. Everyone contributes to that, many a mess both tiny and gargantuan. It's much simpler and healthier in the long run to accept that fact of life and work on it than it is to insist there couldn't possibly be an issue with any view or behavior less than, say, a slur.

Kind've like how misogynistic slurs are pointed to in rap by many a white person but the obvious parallels in other musical genres are rarely recognized for the misogyny they're replicating. It's not brought up because the extent of it not realized. That's not a conscious behavior. But it's still endorsing misogyny by inadvertently promoting ignorance.

Arguing that all (general) you's behavior is above reproach because it may not be as deliberately racist as a slur or a lynching isn't how issues are resolved.

They ain't resolved by pretending that your own possibly nascent guilt that you've been fucking up a bit is really this other person's fault for bringing racism up, either.

Did all white people say this? Or, did some white people say this? I have yet to see a quote or link of ANY white people saying this.
The title is an obvious slur at all white people, at the white majority that some seem to resent so deeply. Notice how I said "some" and not
all?
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I would see lack of intellectual insight as one who can only view life from one perspective, as in this thread. The attitude of "it's all the white mans fault" does not pay the bills.
Consider other cultures, The Jews are a good example, they might speak of the Holocaust so the world never forgets, but they do not wrap themselves in the cloak of victim hood. They have a culture that believes in true education, being productive and responsibility.

I know and have seen and READ what blacks have faced in the colonies and in America. I really don't care if you think that I am myopic.
The truly myopic people are those who dwell in the past or think that those who don't march in lock step with the snow flakes seem to lack intellect.

What is "myopic" is that you think that this is in the past (e.g. "What blacks have faced in the colonies and in America.") It's STILL going on, and you've got not just blinders on: you are BLIND, PERIOD. It's still happening. Every single week. Yes, you project a striking degree of racism. Doesn't make you a bad person, just an ignorant one.

The truly myopic are those who refuse to see what is happening around them, past or present.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Didn't know that part, no wonder they're flaming mad. Also why are you in my thread acting normal? It's.... weird.

tumblr_ne6lfcWG991rlafseo1_500.gif

some five hundred [the amount of "niggers" killed in the lyrics to Oh Susanna]
I'm certainly learning something new tonight. I never knew about this part of the original song. (I take it, that it was about a slave ship sinking?) :eek:

removing racism from American history is not unlike trying to separate sand and salt

and we could remove all the statues we still have to deal with housing [policies written during integration that are still on the books] and job discrimination...
Of course, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.

Statues of Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis, or Confederate flags flying, are usually "in a vacuum" without very much discussion of the consequences of historical events, or the background. A statue of Jefferson Davis may not say much more than something about the history of being President of the Confederacy.

Unfortunately the aspects of history that need to be remembered and NOT FORGOTTEN (lest some new despot tries the same thing out, and not enough people know what it became the last time it was tried), cannot be summed up easily in tiny sound bites, and a lot of Americans have short attention spans.

I'd be curious what part of the general population (or that of Pittsburgh) ever knew about any racism in Foster's music. It's probably not a high percentage, but it needs to be addressed.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

What is "myopic" is that you think that this is in the past (e.g. "What blacks have faced in the colonies and in America.") It's STILL going on, and you've got not just blinders on: you are BLIND, PERIOD. It's still happening. Every single week. Yes, you project a striking degree of racism. Doesn't make you a bad person, just an ignorant one.

The truly myopic are those who refuse to see what is happening around them, past or present.


It's still going on? Are blacks sent to the back of the bus? Can they eat at lunch counters with whites? Do they have to use a separate drinking fountain? Can they marry whites? Are they forced into involuntary servitude?

Some things are going on, it has little to do with a statue. The incarceration rate for young black men is disproportionate. Cops are far more likely to shoot black man than a white. The poverty rate is higher than the general population, teen pregnancy rates are higher.
The drop out rate is higher, many who do graduate are functionally illiterate. I am sure that I did not cover all problems due to my lingering myopic attitude and blinders.

I would ask you this; What do any of the problems that I through my ignorance have noted have to do with the removal of a statue?
I stated a post a few years ago about the fact that it was illegal to teach a slave to read. I said that even after the slaves were freed and their children went to supposed 'separate but equal' schools that these children were at a disadvantage because they came home to illiterate parents and had no support. I went on to say that the test scores today in predominantly black schools might still reflect this disadvantage as it would take many generations even after integration for the black community to be on an equal footing.
Well, some fellow Jubbers came out of the woodwork and were pissed because of that thread. They were mad and assumed that I was saying that blacks were not as smart as whites.

Take a look at the test scores in schools where the students come from a background where education was a priority, dare I mention Asians and Jews? there score the highest as they come from homes where studying and learning were on the front burner.

So, what might be done to 'fix' society today? When it comes to black men being shot, all Americans need to express outrage and the cops who do it to unarmed men need to be sent away. The practice of blacks receiving a harsher sentence that a white has to change. Once a person is 'in the system' they are likely to stay there, it's called recidivism just in case some might think that I have not cracked a tome as of late. Society must evolve past these things. But prison is an industry, perhaps that needs to be addressed?

I would however suggest that sometimes we need to clean our own house. How about programs aimed at inner city and low income adults
with school aged children that would bring them up to speed in their reading and math skills so that there children would have someone to help then with their homework? Teenage pregnancy could be addressed in a number of ways, but taking down a statue is not one of them.

Malcolm X once asked black people this question; Who told you that your skin was the wrong color or that your hair was the wrong texture? (not a verbatim quote) Well, it seems to be a rhetorical question. It was the white man. If you want to break the chains of poverty, illiteracy, single mothers and drugs and violence forget that statue. Forget Star Bucks as well. Forget slavery, forget hatred and bitterness. Forget victim hood and complaining, look at your skin and your hair, there ain't a damned thing wrong with it. Rise above those like me who you accuse of being ignorant, blind and myopic.

I said this in a post not long ago, I hate being redundant. When I was 13 I was sent 'away', it was a bit of a rough place, physical and sexual assaults were a daily occurrence. But one great, wonderful thing came out of it, I was away from those who told me that I was stupid, retarded and no good. I was there a few months before I realized that my mother, brother, school teacher and some fellow students were wrong as hell, there wasn't a damned thing wrong with me. Sure my thinking was a little different, I was socially awkward and didn't 'fit in' with the majority. But for the first time in my life I knew that I was fine.

So, if you and others want to be condescending and call me myopic, or think that because you have a formal education that I am just some dropout dummy, I would tell you that I never 'dropped out', I shook the dust from my feet and proved those who had said that I was a retard that they were wrong.

If taking down a statue provides some pleasure go for it, I would suggest that it is time for the black man to tell the white establishment to get lost, rise above them and not look back.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I think it’s funny that people are basically claiming that it’s no big deal about a statue but are making a big deal about people having a problem with it.


Hmm.

That tells you everything you need to know about said people. Unsurprisingly it's the usual suspects who are always in opposition to anything a person of color says, the counter-argument starts rolling off their lips before the black person has even finished their sentence. :rolleyes:
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

If taking down a statue provides some pleasure go for it, I would suggest that it is time for the black man to tell the white establishment to get lost, rise above them and not look back.

This post is the most disingenuous thing I've ever seen you write. Suddenly you care about black problems AND you have all the answers? There are black-founded initiatives locally and nationally to address every single ill you mentioned from violence to teen pregnancy, they just don't get any attention because Kim Kardashian isn't the spokesperson. :rolleyes:

Let's drop the pretense, we know how you and your crew feel about black people, you don't even hide it, it comes bursting out the seams in any discussion containing the words "black people." And your position is always the same, and when called out you draw back and hide behind a facade of care and concern, just wanted you to know that you aren't fooling anyone.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

This post is the most disingenuous thing I've ever seen you write. Suddenly you care about black problems AND you have all the answers? There are black-founded initiatives locally and nationally to address every single ill you mentioned from violence to teen pregnancy, they just don't get any attention because Kim Kardashian isn't the spokesperson. :rolleyes:

Let's drop the pretense, we know how you and your crew feel about black people, you don't even hide it, it comes bursting out the seams in any discussion containing the words "black people." And your position is always the same, and when called out you draw back and hide behind a facade of care and concern, just wanted you to know that you aren't fooling anyone.

It's your call, if taking down a statue will free wrongfully incarcerated young black men, I will meet and and help you take it down.
If it will end illiteracy, I will meet you and help you take it down.
If it will end teen pregnancy, I will meet you and help you take it down.
If it will end poverty in the inner city, I will meet you and help you take it down.

But, when the statues are gone, where will the black man be?

I would add that if you don't want my opinion, then don't post this 'stuff'.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

It's your call, if taking down a statue will free wrongfully incarcerated young black men, I will meet and and help you take it down.
If it will end illiteracy, I will meet you and help you take it down.
If it will end teen pregnancy, I will meet you and help you take it down.
If it will end poverty in the inner city, I will meet you and help you take it down.

But, when the statues are gone, where will the black man be?

I would add that if you don't want my opinion, then don't post this 'stuff'.

Defeating racism isn't just the obvious culprits but the soft-spoken hiding-in-plain-sight monuments that were created to remind black people of their place in this country.

White people when black people discuss slavery/Jim Crow: Ohmygawwwwwwwwwwsh it's the paaaaaaaaaaaaaast like get over it
White people when black people wanna take down a statue or ban a racist song: Wait a minute hold on now don't go messin with my history now.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I'm certainly learning something new tonight. I never knew about this part of the original song. (I take it, that it was about a slave ship sinking?) :eek:

I'm pretty sure a bullgine is a steam train engine. I'd thought one accident caused another from the narrator's sequence of events during his travel, though I suppose it could've only been the one considering terms often change hands.

It would probably help matters if people were aware of the deliberate intent of the abolitionists who both helped create and also seized on the genre as a way of introducing humanity into the slavery equation. While I wouldn't describe Foster as without issue there's a difference between a description of events and deliberately negative descriptions within those events. As far as language goes, once Foster seems to have realized his dialect shifts weren't helping matters, they were dropped.

If anyone wants to learn about racism and Foster's music look at what art historians have to say. And read for content.

Mind you, none of that is a vote to keep horrendous statuary in a place of public prominence.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Defeating racism isn't just the obvious culprits but the soft-spoken hiding-in-plain-sight monuments that were created to remind black people of their place in this country.

White people when black people discuss slavery/Jim Crow: Ohmygawwwwwwwwwwsh it's the paaaaaaaaaaaaaast like get over it
White people when black people wanna take down a statue or ban a racist song: Wait a minute hold on now don't go messin with my history now.

You don't have to live in that place, there was no shame in being a slave. There is (retrospectively) in having owned them, which leaves a spot on the legacy of our early leaders.
I would think that statues and memorials that were put up for the express purpose of bragging about owning another human would be as embarrassing to our nation as what is left of the death camps are to Germany.

I would think that a person who has been successful in life would scoff at these statues and say 'that's what they thought of us', I would think that you might want to demand that the white man leave these statues right where there are as a reminder of how ignorant and myopic the white man was.

But, do what you want, it's your party, cry if you want to.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I would think that a person who has been successful in life would scoff at these statues and say 'that's what they thought of us', I would think that you might want to demand that the white man leave these statues right where there are as a reminder of how ignorant and myopic the white man was.

If you genuinely believe that purpose is served by these statues I've got some oceanfront property in Illinois I'd like to sell you.

But, do what you want, it's your party, cry if you want to.

You guys are the ones crying about a statue [of a man none of you know whose songs you couldn't name if you were offered a million dollars to] being taken down as if you built it with your bare hands.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Contrivance much? A kid passing that statue wouldn't have identified with it at all. It's a caricature, and the musician is enjoying himself. It hardly implies the black man will never be anything more than a minstrel singer. Fuck. We live in an era in which blacks work in government at all levels, are represented in all media and entertainment, and admitted to every university out there. When I left teaching in 1986, I went to work on a factory production line, and was paid MORE than my teaching job, alongside blacks and whites, and they largely hadn't even finished high school with decent grades. And that was the deep south.

No, that isn't contrivance. Everything sinks into humanity's brain, one way or another. If you think a black kid walking by that statue wouldn't notice its composition and tuck it away with all the other casual racism that's on display you're mistaken. Much like I tucked away all the casual transphobia via gender essentialism as a child and noted it real well.

I suppose next you'll be stating that casual homophobia didn't sink into your conception of how others were likely to perceive you after you noticed your own sexuality?

It would be an interesting argument but it's one that hinges on the subject having a supreme level of obtuseness. And while humanity is often obtuse, it's not that bad at making obvious connections so long as the information pertains to onesself and inequity.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

You guys are the ones crying about a statue [of a man none of you know whose songs you couldn't name if you were offered a million dollars to] being taken down as if you built it with your bare hands.

I much to my chagrin was unaware of this statue. I knew nothing of it until I read your post. Unlike some statues that have civil war rebels
and the stars and bars this statue just depicted a period of time in our history, but, if it makes you feel better, Mr. Fabulous, Tear down that statue.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

No, that isn't contrivance. Everything sinks into humanity's brain, one way or another. If you think a black kid walking by that statue wouldn't notice its composition and tuck it away with all the other casual racism that's on display you're mistaken. Much like I tucked away all the casual transphobia via gender essentialism as a child and noted it real well.

This. Motherfucking this.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I much to my chagrin was unaware of this statue. I knew nothing of it until I read your post. Unlike some statues that have civil war rebels
and the stars and bars this statue just depicted a period of time in our history, but, if it makes you feel better, Mr. Fabulous, Tear down that statue.

At the end of the day don’t get upset at anyone on here because you don’t want to expand your world view.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I much to my chagrin was unaware of this statue. I knew nothing of it until I read your post. Unlike some statues that have civil war rebels
and the stars and bars this statue just depicted a period of time in our history, but, if it makes you feel better, Mr. Fabulous, Tear down that statue.

No. That is not 'just what the statue depicts'. It was a statue composed in a specific mindframe with specific intentions that, I notice, did not jive with the original artist's intentions.

Difficult to claim it's solely a tribute considering 'only' 270+ odd songs out of 300 of Foster's work didn't mention black specifically, let alone showcase a happy slave in bronze.

That people are both arguing that the statue has no deliberate intention within its composition and that it has deliberate intention within its composition but that doesn't matter despite how people view that statue due to its composition because 'crickets' is a hell of a large mental gap to entertain. I try not to make a habit of entertaining mental leaps of that nature.

And quitchure whinging, nobody's melting it down, it's just getting moved. As it should be, since I'm usually loath to melt America's racist intentions via homage. The way you're complaining it sounds like what you're really mad about is it getting moved out of the spot of honor. You don't need honor to acknowledge racist intent.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

At the end of the day don’t get upset at anyone on here because you don’t want to expand your world view.

I always look for ways to expand my world view, but, I will not allow the pc crowd, the thought police to change my world view.
If tearing or taking down statues makes people feel better then have at it. I just see it as a futile exercise, but go ahead and fiddle while Rome burns. Yes, I know that the violin wasn't around at that time https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/nero.htm, but I couldn't resist saying it
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

I'm pretty sure a bullgine is a steam train engine.

I did a quick search and a 'bullgine' is the steam engine itself and not necessarily the locomotive. Bullgines were used in ships as well, but, apparently, the sailors didn't like them and they practically fell into disuse for sailing ships. They were used most prominently in steam locomotives. Apparently, 'bullgine' is the derisive name that sailors coined for an engine they hated.

I've never heard of them before.
 
Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

No. That is not 'just what the statue depicts'. It was a statue composed in a specific mindframe with specific intentions that, I notice, did not jive with the original artist's intentions.

Difficult to claim it's solely a tribute considering 'only' 270+ odd songs out of 300 of Foster's work didn't mention black specifically, let alone showcase a happy slave in bronze.

That people are both arguing that the statue has no deliberate intention within its composition and that it has deliberate intention within its composition but that doesn't matter despite how people view that statue due to its composition because 'crickets' is a hell of a large mental gap to entertain. I try not to make a habit of entertaining mental leaps of that nature.

And quitchure whinging, nobody's melting it down, it's just getting moved. As it should be, since I'm usually loath to melt America's racist intentions via homage. The way you're complaining it sounds like what you're really mad about is it getting moved out of the spot of honor. You don't need honor to acknowledge racist intent.

You wanna get together and burn some books?
 
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