'Oh! Susanna' songwriter's statue removed from Pittsburgh park after criticism

[bankside]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Europe is carpeted in centuries of statues that capture in bronze and stone all the prejudice and hatred and injustice foisted upon their fellow Europeans on behalf of the great schisms between Catholicism and Protestantism, monarchists vs republicans, communists vs liberals, one prince vs another.

Removing any one of those statues because we now realize the depths of their stupidity is a dull way forward. Why not better to add a new statue about the principles we now rightly follow? Seems like you find out more about where you’ve been and the values we now hold when you can look back and see what people thought in generations past.

 

[mcbrion]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Okay, lets play statue. While you live in dread fear that some child from the ghetto will see this depiction and be scarred for life albeit 'subconsciously', I fear that this child who is puzzled about life's mysteries, such things as "why have I never met my dad?" "why did the cops take away my uncle?" "why do the girls hang out om the street corner?" "why is the heat turned off?" "why is the refrigerator empty?" might ask "what does this statue have to do with this?"
Well, the statue can't hurt him anymore, all is well with the world.

Now you're being a stone cold racist. Living in "the ghetto" is an address for like-minded groups. Jews have ghettos. You DO remember Germany, right, where Jews lived in "ghettos" because they were shunned by "polite society" (who were every bit as racist as your thinking shows you to be).
Many Vietnamese lives in ghettos - there's one in Orange County, California, just south of LA! But your disgusting statement about "why haven't I met my dad" doesn't apply to merely Blacks, any more than "why are my parents divorced," "why did my parents send me to a boarding school," "why don't I ever see my dad anymore" (he's out with his mistress/the "boys" in the golf club/just plain distant) applies to White children. While there certainly are Blacks living in poverty, there are even a HIGHER numbers of Whites living in poverty - without heat, food, electricity. And NOT living in the ghetto - but STILL living in those conditions. Since we're talking psychology, let look at the cultures: Black America is far more "family oriented" than White America because it is a Matriarchal-based society, whereas White culture is a Patriarchal (e.g., "approval-based") society. Which explains the suicide rates for Whites is 3X that of Blacks. So, let's keep our comments based on a critical observation level, and not a 1973 Steve Wonder song "Living For The City about Blacks in the inner city, which became the inner city because of White Flight to the 'burbs, causing educational funds to be diverted from the cities to those in the suburbs (White, White, White).
And the cops took away my uncle because for 100 years, trumped-up charges were leveled against Blacks - or have you never read "To Kill A Mockingbird"? And the police still do: just read the newspapers daily for outlandish reasons Blacks get arrested. How ironic then, that The California Serial Killer, who evaded capture for 40 years was formerly a police officer. But thats' wandering off the subject.
Like so many others you are a perfect example of Isaac Asimov's statement: “Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
Try scrubbing yours off: you've got quite the buildup there, kid.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Now you're being a stone cold racist. Living in "the ghetto" is an address for like-minded groups. Jews have ghettos. You DO remember Germany, right, where Jews lived in "ghettos" because they were shunned by "polite society" (who were every bit as racist as your thinking shows you to be).
Many Vietnamese lives in ghettos - there's one in Orange County, California, just south of LA! But your disgusting statement about "why haven't I met my dad" doesn't apply to merely Blacks, any more than "why are my parents divorced," "why did my parents send me to a boarding school," "why don't I ever see my dad anymore" (he's out with his mistress/the "boys" in the golf club/just plain distant) applies to White children. While there certainly are Blacks living in poverty, there are even a HIGHER numbers of Whites living in poverty - without heat, food, electricity. And NOT living in the ghetto - but STILL living in those conditions. Since we're talking psychology, let look at the cultures: Black America is far more "family oriented" than White America because it is a Matriarchal-based society, whereas White culture is a Patriarchal (e.g., "approval-based") society. Which explains the suicide rates for Whites is 3X that of Blacks. So, let's keep our comments based on a critical observation level, and not a 1973 Steve Wonder song "Living For The City about Blacks in the inner city, which became the inner city because of White Flight to the 'burbs, causing educational funds to be diverted from the cities to those in the suburbs (White, White, White).
And the cops took away my uncle because for 100 years, trumped-up charges were leveled against Blacks - or have you never read "To Kill A Mockingbird"? And the police still do: just read the newspapers daily for outlandish reasons Blacks get arrested. How ironic then, that The California Serial Killer, who evaded capture for 40 years was formerly a police officer. But thats' wandering off the subject.
Like so many others you are a perfect example of Isaac Asimov's statement: “Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
Try scrubbing yours off: you've got quite the buildup there, kid.

You must not know peon, he's our resident "I'm not racist BUT....." excellent post.

 

[mcbrion]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Okay, lets play statue. While you live in dread fear that some child from the ghetto will see this depiction and be scarred for life albeit 'subconsciously', I fear that this child who is puzzled about life's mysteries, such things as "why have I never met my dad?" "why did the cops take away my uncle?" "why do the girls hang out om the street corner?" "why is the heat turned off?" "why is the refrigerator empty?" might ask "what does this statue have to do with this?"
Well, the statue can't hurt him anymore, all is well with the world.

Now you're being a stone cold racist. Living in "the ghetto" is an address for like-minded groups. Jews have ghettos. You DO remember Germany, right, where Jews lived in "ghettos" because they were shunned by "polite society" (who were every bit as racist as your thinking shows you to be).
Many Vietnamese lives in ghettos - there's one in Orange County, California, just south of LA! But your disgusting statement about "why haven't I met my dad" doesn't apply to merely Blacks, any more than "why are my parents divorced," "why did my parents send me to a boarding school," "why don't I ever see my dad anymore" (he's out with his mistress/the "boys" in the golf club/just plain distant) applies to White children. While there certainly are Blacks living in poverty, there are even a HIGHER numbers of Whites living in poverty - without heat, food, electricity. And NOT living in the ghetto - but STILL living in those conditions. Since we're talking psychology, let look at the cultures: Black America is far more "family oriented" than White America because it is a Matriarchal-based society, whereas White culture is a Patriarchal (e.g., "approval-based") society. Which explains the suicide rates for Whites is 3X that of Blacks. So, let's keep our comments based on a critical observation level, and not a 1973 Steve Wonder song "Living For The City about Blacks in the inner city, which became the inner city because of White Flight to the 'burbs, causing educational funds to be diverted from the cities to those in the suburbs (White, White, White).
And the cops took away my uncle because for 100 years, trumped-up charges were leveled against Blacks - or have you never read "To Kill A Mockingbird"? And the police still do: just read the newspapers daily for outlandish reasons Blacks get arrested. How ironic then, that The California Serial Killer, who evaded capture for 40 years was formerly a police officer. But thats' wandering off the subject.
Like so many others you are a perfect example of Isaac Asimov's statement: “Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
Try scrubbing yours off: you've got quite the buildup there, kid.

 

[peeonme]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Now you're being a stone cold racist. Living in "the ghetto" is an address for like-minded groups. Jews have ghettos. You DO remember Germany, right, where Jews lived in "ghettos" because they were shunned by "polite society" (who were every bit as racist as your thinking shows you to be).
Many Vietnamese lives in ghettos - there's one in Orange County, California, just south of LA! But your disgusting statement about "why haven't I met my dad" doesn't apply to merely Blacks, any more than "why are my parents divorced," "why did my parents send me to a boarding school," "why don't I ever see my dad anymore" (he's out with his mistress/the "boys" in the golf club/just plain distant) applies to White children. While there certainly are Blacks living in poverty, there are even a HIGHER numbers of Whites living in poverty - without heat, food, electricity. And NOT living in the ghetto - but STILL living in those conditions. Since we're talking psychology, let look at the cultures: Black America is far more "family oriented" than White America because it is a Matriarchal-based society, whereas White culture is a Patriarchal (e.g., "approval-based") society. Which explains the suicide rates for Whites is 3X that of Blacks. So, let's keep our comments based on a critical observation level, and not a 1973 Steve Wonder song "Living For The City about Blacks in the inner city, which became the inner city because of White Flight to the 'burbs, causing educational funds to be diverted from the cities to those in the suburbs (White, White, White).
And the cops took away my uncle because for 100 years, trumped-up charges were leveled against Blacks - or have you never read "To Kill A Mockingbird"? And the police still do: just read the newspapers daily for outlandish reasons Blacks get arrested. How ironic then, that The California Serial Killer, who evaded capture for 40 years was formerly a police officer. But thats' wandering off the subject.
Like so many others you are a perfect example of Isaac Asimov's statement: “Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
Try scrubbing yours off: you've got quite the buildup there, kid.

And so you are conceding that "white privilege is a lie?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

And so you are conceding that "white privilege is a lie?

And the award for boldest and most obvious obfuscation goes to.....

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

And so you are conceding that "white privilege is a lie?

Conceding? Now that's an interesting word choice. You are aware that racism is the opposite of white privilege, right.

Which means you're also describing current racism as a lie while ignoring the white flight and monetary withdrawal for school districts that's currently occurring and has occurred previously.

Current.

As in, not the long-dead past.

As in, the present. The same present you're determined not to acknowledge that white people benefit from. Because for the lack of electricity, the lack of food and heat, I still had access to those schools. Admittedly a bit limited, as the extracurriculars cost money, but access all the same.

I mean, surely you haven't been ignoring that inner city schools aren't considered the best in the business, it's why my parents hauled ass back across country.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Conceding? Now that's an interesting word choice. You are aware that racism is the opposite of white privilege, right.

Which means you're also describing current racism as a lie while ignoring the white flight and monetary withdrawal for school districts that's currently occurring and has occurred previously.

Current.

As in, not the long-dead past.

As in, the present. The same present you're determined not to acknowledge white people benefit from. Because for the lack of electricity, the lack of food and heat, I still had access to those schools.

 

[peeonme]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Conceding? Now that's an interesting word choice. You are aware that racism is the opposite of white privilege, right.

Which means you're also describing current racism as a lie while ignoring the white flight and monetary withdrawal for school districts that's currently occurring and has occurred previously.

Current.

As in, not the long-dead past.

As in, the present. The same present you're determined not to acknowledge white people benefit from. Because for the lack of electricity, the lack of food and heat, I still had access to those schools. Admittedly a bit limited, as the extracurriculars cost money, but access all the same.

You guys are just so cranky! All I have heard is that the black man is the under dog because of white privilege. Then I am told :

While there certainly are Blacks living in poverty, there are even a HIGHER numbers of Whites living in poverty - without heat, food, electricity. And NOT living in the ghetto - but STILL living in those conditions.

So, where is the privilege? If we get it all because we are white, then why are more white people living in poverty? It seems like all of this racism doesn't have the impact that some might claim.

Or..... could it be that mcbrion neglected to say that the number of blacks living in poverty 'per capita' is much higher?

https://www.statista.com/statistics...in-the-united-states-by-race-or-ethnic-group/

 

[mcbrion]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

It is ironic that England, from which the colonists fled for "persecution," ended slavery before the end of the 18th century, while the United States slithers along with subtle forms of slavery/racism to this very day. The number of Blacks on Death Row (42% on death row, while Blacks are 13% of the US population). Murders by police of the young Black man in the back yard of his own home. The arrest of the Eminent Dr. Henry Gates at his own front door, trying to get into his own home because he lost his keys. A 12-year old shot by the police ("He's got a gun! He's got a gun!" Only... NO GUN.)

Myself? I'm not in favor of pulling down the Confederate statues. Americans are highly oriented towards an "out-of-sight-out-of-mind mentality. Now, as well, a Memphis theatre will no longer show Gone With The Wind, because it "romanticizes" slavery. As if that will change anything. I've been on this planet close to 70 years and I KNOW that peoples' memories are tied to what is dead in front of their faces: they try to forget what they can no longer see. Now that enough time has passed, history revisionists claim that The Holocaust was "a hoax." Why? No evidence? (Of course, there is, but nope, nobody was burned in the Jewish internment camps. Just a hoax.)

No, people are not remotely evolved enough that they will become "fair-minded citizens" once those statues are removed, something I wrote about in an article back in 1988. Perhaps in 200 years - but not now. The fact that the statues are gone will not cause them to suddenly forget their hateful history of - and treatment of - Blacks. I suppose it could be argued that removing the statutes removes the glorification of the South, but that's poppycock. The darkness is too far embedded in their hearts to simply disappear by the removal of statutes. That kind of thing takes many generations to disappear. That should be evident to anyone with a brain. The increase of hate groups by 20% has nothing to do with statues in the South. Many of the hate groups are in the North and west. Oregon? Colorado? See any statutes there??? And there are 5 hate groups right here in Connecticut.
No, this "removal" is simply a display of "doing the right thing." If the removal of a mere physical display was effective, the hate group population would not have surged when Donald Trump was elected. Meet the new face of racism: The President of The United States.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

It is not merely a removal of the statue into obscurity. It is a removal of the statue to a visible place that doesn't specifically promote awe and honor while keeping a suspicious lack of context o'the thing for the average viewer.

Personally I'd vote to mix such deliberately racist statuary into current museums while sticking every last confederate leader 'hero' statue into a building, each within its own state that has them, where they may be viewed with the historical facts of the matter readily apparent. Possibly next to cemeteries, though personally I'd locate them much farther away from a symbol where one would expect to feel grief and sadness. Keep those erroneous mental linkages to a minimum.

 

[bankside]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

It is not merely a removal of the statue into obscurity. It is a removal of the statue to a visible place that doesn't specifically promote awe and honor while keeping a suspicious lack of context o'the thing for the average viewer.

Personally I'd vote to mix such statuary into current museums and stick every last confederate statue into a building, each in its own state, where they may be viewed with the historical facts of the matter readily apparent. Possibly next to cemeteries, though personally I'd locate them much farther away from a symbol where one would expect to feel grief and sadness.

I could vote for that. I would prefer that the statues stay where they are and that their shortcomings be answered by new statues that show us a deeper understanding. In Canada we have streets and statues to commemorate the likes of anti-suffrage politicians like Lionel Groulx and Henri Bourassa. Rather than remove their monuments, I would refer to ensure that Groulx Road leads to Emily Murphy Park, that kind of thing.

You talk about the context and the need to give a full perspective. I like that but I would rather take the lessons out of the museum buildings into the original squares and plazas. I see the good in showing how some of these types ultimately lost, in the original settings intended to celebrate them.

That said I could live with your proposal.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

It is not merely a removal of the statue into obscurity. It is a removal of the statue to a visible place that doesn't specifically promote awe and honor while keeping a suspicious lack of context o'the thing for the average viewer.

Personally I'd vote to mix such deliberately racist statuary into current museums while sticking every last confederate leader 'hero' statue into a building, each within its own state that has them, where they may be viewed with the historical facts of the matter readily apparent. Possibly next to cemeteries, though personally I'd locate them much farther away from a symbol where one would expect to feel grief and sadness. Keep those erroneous mental linkages to a minimum.

This. People who act like public monuments are some kind of warning are lying through their teeth. When I see a statue in public I assume it's someone being honored for accomplishing something great, which is the intent of erecting these things. I'm soooo perplexed at people trying to actually spin this as some sort of educational tool. But we all know how they'd react if statues of notorious black panthers started popping up.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

You talk about the context and the need to give a full perspective. I like that but I would rather take the lessons out of the museum buildings into the original squares and plazas. I see the good in showing how some of these types ultimately lost, in the original settings intended to celebrate them.

We're not nearly at that spot yet. Perhaps in a couple hundred years. There's a reason Hitler's grave, sorry, death bunker, is a parking lot - it's because the general public associates 'monument' with inspiration and 'death memorial' outside of cemeteries with sacrifice for the 'greater good'.

I'm all for keeping most of the memorials - just not where they are in the context they're being celebrated in.

I still wanna melt that fucker James Marion Sim's bust down tho. He can have a zerox'd image in a cheap frame next to his list of 'accomplishments'.

 

[Latimer]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

^
Assuming--as you do--that almost all white American men and women since Europeans first came to this land were and are racist, are there any white Americans other than abolitionists who should be honored with monuments in public places? Even when there isn't a "paper trail" (FDR and Japanese internment, for example), the assumption seems to be that everyone is racist, and that racism is heinous enough that it becomes the most important factor in whether or not to honor a person.

What would you recommend regarding prominent slave owners? While you and I know it is never going to happen, do you believe that the nation would be best served by removing Jefferson's statue from the Jefferson Memorial? Removing George Washington's face from the dollar bill?

We can all agree that Stephen Foster was a talented and estimable composer. Does the fact that a few of his works were written for minstrel shows and have arguably racist lyrics or racist words automatically disqualify him from being honored with a public monument? Obviously you and others do, and those of us who don't are deemed to be racist for disagreeing.

How do you believe we should respond when charges of sexual discrimination and exploitation arise? They will. Benjamin Franklin was known to have an eye for the ladies, what should we do when we discover that he made sexual demands on his female servants? Who knows what's going to be discovered about MLK's sexual adventures and proclivities? Who decides what's most important?

But back to my earlier question: in your IDEAL WORLD, would you remove Jefferson's statue from the Jefferson Memorial? George Washington's image from the dollar bill? Columbus from the pedestal in Columbus Circle?

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

@Latimer

Assuming--as you do--that almost all white American men and women since Europeans first came to this land were and are racist, are there any white Americans other than abolitionists who should be honored with monuments in public places?

Almost? No, I mean all. I typed all, I meant all.

Don't ask loaded questions. I didn't say remove the statues of every white person nor did I say the only statuary would be to abolistionists or people sympathetic to the cause at the time. If I had said that I wouldn't vote to display a Foster statue. Just not that statue.

Even when there isn't a "paper trail" (FDR and Japanese internment, for example), the assumption seems to be that everyone is racist, and that racism is heinous enough that it becomes the most important factor in whether or not to honor a person.

No. People are saying "Quit honoring white people for their explicit racism." Read about Sim's contributions, take note of the distinction between being celebrated for racism-in-action vs someone being celebrated for being a romantic songwriter who didn't go out of his way to villify black people in his music. Which that Foster statue did not do, by the way.

And what do you do regarding prominent slave owners? While you and I know it is never going to happen, do you believe that the nation would be best served by removing Jefferson's statue from the Jefferson Memorial? Removing George Washington's face from the dollar bill?

Depends on why they're being honored there, dunnit. And what sideways facts are being obscured by a non-mention in that historical 'narrative of honor'.

We can all agree that Stephen Foster was a talented and estimable composer. Does the fact that a few of his works were written for minstrel shows and have arguably racist lyrics or racist words automatically disqualify him from being honored with a public monument?

You have apparently read nothing I've written here about the delicacy of context and Foster's own actions. Or minstrelry's slightly complicated history. there's plenty of links here, get off your ass and do some research of your own.

And what about the newly resurgent feminist morality police?
Quit pretending this is more complicated than it absolutely needs to be. Your questions have been answered, at least in part, on previous threads and this thread in the last 4 pages.

But back to my first question: in your IDEAL WORLD, would you remove Jefferson's statue from the Jefferson Memorial? George Washington's image from the dollar bill? Columbus from the pedestal in Columbus Circle?

I'd suggest context taught in school, which is is not, and including detailed plaques along with, preferably a second statue commemorating the individuals who were brushed aside or used. For Columbus, funny you should ask.

Go research Columbus's advertizing campaign and then try and insist he did something noteworthy.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

We can all agree that Stephen Foster was a talented and estimable composer.

This is fake as fuck. None of you knew who this man was before this thread and you had to google him to find out exactly who the fuck was being talked about.

the assumption seems to be that everyone is racist

Nope, nice try though. As you can see several people in this thread disagree with me such as mcbrion and somewhat Lucky and I'm not calling them racist. you have a lengthy post history that proves beyond all conceivable doubt how you feel about black people, though the past few weeks is plenty proof enough since every post you write about blacks is argumentative and dismissive of our concerns. if black people say the sky is blue you're going to say no it's not it's orange, if black people say it's cold in winter you're going to say it's hot as fuck, if police shoot a mentally handicapped unarmed black man who is physically disabled from the waist down you'll find some angle to make him the violent aggressor who "got what was coming to him." i don't even know why you deny it when it's not exactly a secret.

and that racism is heinous enough that it becomes the most important factor in whether or not to honor a person

Sure the fuck is, just like all these rappers who donate millions to charity and establish camps and after-school programs to promote education are still demonized, same rules apply to racist fuckwads I don't care if they DID invent the sugar cookie or write a dope ass song they're still a racist piece of garbage no more deserving of honor than 8 miles of ran-over donkey shit. But surprise surprise that you're audacious enough to act all flabbergasted that people say you're racist then you turn around and allude that if somebody accomplishes something great enough maaaaaybe we could and should turn a blind eye to them owning human fucking beings.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Go research Columbus's advertizing campaign and then try and insist he did something noteworthy.

I was wondering myself what the fuck he did to deserve honor-- first of all in and of itself, but also compounded with him orchestrating the slaughter and torture and enslavement of an entire indigenous peoples. Foster's "nigger" lyric and this statue pale in comparison to CC's sins, worst possible example to use ever, though telling that Latimer seems to think CC still deserves kudos. Again, for what, I couldn't guess in a thousand years.

 

[pat grimshaw]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

... Who knows what's going to be discovered about MLK's sexual adventures and proclivities? ...

And also JFK's constant adultery.

....FDR and Japanese internment, for example...

It was a time of Total War. Every state of the Union had sent sons to be massacred in the pointless war of aggression by the [Text: Removed]. FDR interned those people for their own protection.


Our complex past cannot be reduced to the dumbed-downed slogans, rants and memes that passes for discourse nowdays.

 

[pat grimshaw]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

...these rappers who donate millions to charity...

Do you have a link?