OMG, a true horror story in a religious book !!!

[FirmaFan]

When we "die" our consciousness dissolves and so does our bodies.
We rejoin the circle of materials and we help to recreate life as its ingredients.

I agree to an extent. But the energy produced by the decay of my body isn't something I could call "life", at least not "my life" - plus, there is no guarantee that the molecules and energy of my body would be used to produce anything organic (which is where I disagree from your idea that it would help create life). I could no more define that as "life" than I could define the exhaust that comes out of my car as "gasoline".

 

[FirmaFan]

I believe you mistake the word "life" with the word "consciousness".
If we talk about logic however your reasoning is false.
A logical person always assumes the worst posssible outcome.

Worst possibility: MikeyLove is right and his religion is right.
How to prepare for this possibility? Live a good life filled with good deeds and compassion.
Result: If our assumption of God was right than we shall claim reward. If it was wrong, than we lived a full, happy life and we helped a lot of people to do the same.

You argue Pascal's Wager and then call my logic flawed? What if the worst possibility is that Zeus is the true god? How should I prepare for that possibility? Dare I prepare for the possibility that MikeyLove's religion is right, only to be pissing off Allah and Muhammad in the process? There are thousands and thousands of gods, past and present, that have been worshiped, many that are mutually exclusive, and countless that punish non-belief or belief in another deity. According to MikeyLove's religion, simply being a good person does not get you this infinite reward, it is unquestioned belief that does that. All other transgressions can be forgiven, but non-belief is the one exception. I can not suddenly start believing in MikeyLove's religion anymore than I can start believing that Santa Clause is real. To claim belief simply to cover my own ass in the unlikely event that MikeyLove is right, well, you'd think an omnipotent being would see though the ruse. I could continue, as Pascal's Wager is flawed well beyond the topics I have just discussed.

 

[FirmaFan]

I can call your logic flawed whenever I want because it is ultimately true.
Sorry I am messing with you.

However you didn't quite understand what I was trying to say here.
What I meant was: No matter what happens, if you lead a good life you won't be screwed up for sure.

What is Pascal's Wager By the way? I hope it's not a book, cause I don't happen to have the time to read such idle philosophical scriptures.

Pascal's Wager is a flawed argument put forth by Blaise Pascal to show why a person should believe in the christian god. Quickly summarized, it states that if you believe in the christian god, and christianity turns out to be true, you gain the benefit of eternal heaven. If Christianity is not true, you have lost nothing for believing. Therefore, it is better to believe in the christian god.

It is a flawed argument on several premises, many of which I touched upon in my previous post.

It is better to, as you have said, lead a good life. Be a good person for the sake of being a good person.

 

[Brian Smith]

I believe you mistake the word "life" with the word "consciousness".
If we talk about logic however your reasoning is false.
A logical person always assumes the worst posssible outcome.

Worst possibility: MikeyLove is right and his religion is right.
How to prepare for this possibility? Live a good life filled with good deeds and compassion.
Result: If our assumption of God was right than we shall claim reward. If it was wrong, than we lived a full, happy life and we helped a lot of people to do the same.

No, the worst possibility is that God really is evil, and only the most cruel, materialistic and Machiavellian of his followers will be rewarded. The most snide and homophobic Southern Baptists you have ever known will be held in higher esteem than you in the hereafter. People who have driven gay people to suicide will be exalted and praised for all eternity. People who have murdered and persecuted non-Christians rank highest among the Saints. Believe me, the "God really is a tyrannical bastard" scenario is the worst conceivable scenario.

If I knew the only way I could stop having to share a universe with such a churlish and reprehensible creature was by throwing my body on some jagged rocks, I swear that I would do so right now. My keys would be in the ignition to go and find a place to do so ten seconds from now. Part of the reason that I became an atheist, in the first place, was that I made up my mind that, if all atheists are going to Hell, I'll go with them. If all atheists are going to burn, I guess I'll have to burn, too. I could not imagine the kind of disgusting person who would seriously worship a deity that was so egotistical and monstrous. I would renounce any relationship I had with such a person. I could not stomach worshiping a cosmic bastard, and I want no connection with his followers.

The only thing that has ever made me feel tempted to become a part of the Christian faith was when I was taking care of an AIDS patient, for a while, who was suffering from a bad bout of bronchitis. For his sake, I accompanied him to this little desolate, white-washed building on a dirt lot. It was a poor folks' church. They were Pentecostals of the most old-fashioned kind. They wept together. They prayed together. They genuinely cared about the plights of the members of their congregation and their families. The troubles and issues of even the least of them was deeply personal to them. However, their joy also was shared communally. Sometimes, I have wistful thoughts that I could become a part of something like that. That kind of life seems so superior to the estranged, materialistic and disjointed culture we live in.

But there is nothing that has driven me to atheism like the condemnation of all members of other faiths and all atheists and skeptics to eternal Hellfire. The kind of "faith" that inspires is so cold. It is empty. It is desolate, and it is heartless. I consider it to be entirely mercenary, and I regard it as worthless. It is the empty garbage that the Almighty God of White Trash and Vermin deserves to be thrown.

 

[ludolfo]

I believe you mistake the word "life" with the word "consciousness".
If we talk about logic however your reasoning is false.
A logical person always assumes the worst posssible outcome.

Worst possibility: MikeyLove is right and his religion is right.
How to prepare for this possibility? Live a good life filled with good deeds and compassion.
Result: If our assumption of God was right than we shall claim reward. If it was wrong, than we lived a full, happy life and we helped a lot of people to do the same.

More like if it was wrong I have lived a dry aesthetic joyless life, and caused others to with my example and praching, and made myself and others be ashamed of sexuality, and restricted myself and others from experiencing psychedelic experience which reminds me:

I had a friend years ago. he was Jamaican and I met him....I daren't tell you, but it was a strange meeting. Anyway, we got on quite alright, but he was called Calvin and was a Christian (maybe it coulda been Calvinist considering his name, not sure). Anyhow, as things happen we went our separate ways after a bit,but one day we met up again after he contacted me. At that time I had previously collected some magic mushrooms and had kept little stashes of them dried. So anyway, we have a good evening, but when I offered him some mushrooms his whole demeanor changed towards me as though I had suddenly turned into the 'Devil'. His body language recoiled and it was like I had deeply offended him, and tempted him with the very fruit of the Garden of Eden. I never saw him again after that night. So sad.

 

[FirmaFan]

I hate to burst your cute bubbles, but......Santa Clause is real. ie; in the person of St. Nicholas I never stopped believing he existed.

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/home/

I would be hard pressed to find an example of an obviously fictitious figure that wasn't based upon some real world figure. To make my argument more concise, I will clarify that I was referring to the fat man in a red suit that lives at the north pole, has a toy factory, hires vertically-challenged pointy eared slaves, works for milk and cookies, and delivers presents to children all over the globe in one night in a venison-powered sleigh guided by a steed with the worst case of chronic rhinitis I've ever seen. I believe Weird-Al Yankovich penned a biopic detailing his descent into utter madness.

 

[FirmaFan]

Indeed yet this idea is adapted to most religions.

One of the most obvious flaws of Pascal's wager. It doesn't take into account the existence of all other religions, or the possibility that another religion may be the correct one. The idea was first proposed within the christian framework, but many others outside of christianity have used it as well, just substituting their own god for the christian one.

 

[ludolfo]

But there is nothing that has driven me to atheism like the condemnation of all members of other faiths and all atheists and skeptics to eternal Hellfire. The kind of "faith" that inspires is so cold. It is empty. It is desolate, and it is heartless. I consider it to be entirely mercenary, and I regard it as worthless. It is the empty garbage that the Almighty God of White Trash and Vermin deserves to be thrown.

Yes I was thinking earlier on about the Christian 'virtue' 'having fear of the lord'. That to me is awful because where there's fear there's no love. If people are fearful of being thrown into a hell for ever and ever amen, how the hell can they truly feel love for anyone or anything. They are too full of fear and watching their own arse dont get burned than having genuine love for the other. THAT is why you/me others sense that there is something deeply missing from their do-gooding. Real people on the street sense this too of course. The love offered is stiff and artificial hypocritical and is rooted in F E A R.

 

[ludolfo]

Are you really that short-sighted or you act like that on purpose?
You act like as if I said that in order to lead a good life it has to suck...
You are impossible.

And yeah, by the way I would probably never meet you again if you offered me drugs.
I totally understand the guy.

Yes mr logical, god forbid your graet logic-head gets a contra-diction hey? your lot are as bad as the fundamentalist preachers.

 

[Brian Smith]

Yes I was thinking earlier on about the Christian 'virtue' 'having fear of the lord'. That to me is awful because where there's fear there's no love. If people are fearful of being thrown into a hell for ever and ever amen, how the hell can they truly feel love for anyone or anything. They are too full of fear and watching their own arse dont get burned than having genuine love for the other. THAT is why you/me others sense that there is something deeply missing from their do-gooding. Real people on the street sense this too of course. The love offered is stiff and artificial hypocritical and is rooted in F E A R.

Well, something that really creeps me out is that the big-church Southern Baptists will often tell you, as a reason you ought to convert to Christianity, that people who have "salvation" will all get to "live in a nice house, have a nice car, and have all the money they want" or something like that. That materialistic thinking revolts me. I would sooner be reborn into a cesspool as a nematode.

Some people have just never had a spiritual thought in their lives. It leaves me shaking my head in disgust.

 

[ludolfo]

Yes they equate their fortune with God loving them more than about half the people on planet earth living in poverty whose very poverty SUPPORTs the relatively small percentage of people in the western world who rely on that impoverishment to be rich! THAT is just how ignore-ant they are. They will cherry pick out of their fave Big Book eg 'God helps those who helps themselves'.

 

[ludolfo]

But that Santa Clause was a secular, ie; an abomination of St. Nicholas, to sell Christmas commercially beginning in the late 1800's.

ahaaa that fave Christian term again "A B O M I N A T I O N" which must be said in an echo chamber for full effect by men in hoods with faces shadowed carrying torture tools


I've heard that father christmas real origins comes from Siberian shamanism and the amanita muscaria mushroom which shamans there use as their psychedelic sacrament:

“The Pine tree is one of the well-known central relics of Christmas. Under this tree is where those who are deemed good find their reward in the form of a present. A big red and white rounded mushroom grows under the very tree we are to look under on Christmas morning to find our gift.” –James Arthur, “Mushrooms and Mankind”

To this day Siberian shamans dress in ceremonial red and white fur-trimmed jackets to gather the magic mushrooms. First they pick and place the mushrooms to partially dry on nearby pine boughs which prepares them for ingestion and makes the load lighter. This is why we decorate our Christmas trees with ornaments and bulbs, because the gatherers would always adorn trees with drying mushrooms. Next the shaman collects his red and white presents in a sack and proceeds to travel from house to house delivering them. During Siberian winters, the snow piles up past the doors of their yurts (huts), so the red and white clad shaman must climb down the smoke-hole (chimney) to deliver the presents in his sack. Finally the appreciative villagers string the mushrooms up or put them in stockings hung affront the fire to dry. When they awake in the morning, their presents from under the pine tree are all dried and ready to eat.

“The amanita mushroom needs to be dried before being consumed; the drying process reduces the mushroom's toxicity while increasing its potency. The shaman would guide the group in stringing the mushrooms and hanging them around the hearth-fire to dry. This tradition is echoed in the modern stringing of popcorn and other items.” -Dana Larsen, “The Psychedelic Secrets of Santa Claus” Cannabis Culture, Marijuana Magazine, Dec 18th, 2003

“The ancient shamanic use of Amanita muscaria in Siberia is well documented. Despite governmental oppression against its use, there are still many who refuse to accept the authorized state religion, and continue the shamanic traditions in secret. Just as the Siberian shaman (commonly dressing in red and white) would enter through the opening in the roof of a home where a ritual was to be done, Santa Claus also arrives on the roof and enters through the chimney. Just as the shamans would gather the mushrooms in bags which they would bring with them when performing a ceremony, Santa Claus also (on the Holy Day) brings presents in a bag.” -James Arthur, “Mushrooms and Mankind”

“Reindeer were the sacred animals of these semi-nomadic people, as the reindeer provided food, shelter, clothing and other necessities. Reindeer are also fond of eating the amanita mushrooms; they will seek them out, and then prance about while under their influence … The effects of the amanita mushroom usually include sensations of size distortion and flying. The feeling of flying could account for the legends of flying reindeer, and legends of shamanic journeys included stories of winged reindeer, transporting their riders up to the highest branches of the World Tree.” -Dana Larsen, “The Psychedelic Secrets of Santa Claus” Cannabis Culture, Marijuana Magazine, Dec 18th, 2003

The flying reindeer, sleigh, and the entire Santa Claus mythology originates from Siberia where Saint Nicholas, the patron Saint of children, is a supplanter to the indigenous Shamans.

“Saint Nicholas, known as the ‘Patron Saint of Children,’ is the most revered saint in Russia, second only to the apostles. He is the Russian Orthodox Church's supplanter to the native people's highly respected local Shaman. A Shaman is a holy man that is well acquainted with a form of spirituality that incorporates plant entheogens which facilitate the NDE (Near Death Experience), or ‘out of body’ experience. Saint Nicholas may not have been a shaman, yet the symbolism on, and coloring of his robes could lend to speculation.” –James Arthur, “Mushrooms and Mankind” [all images and text, and more, taken from here

 

[FirmaFan]

But that Santa Clause was a secular, ie; an abomination of St. Nicholas, to sell Christmas commercially beginning in the late 1800's.

Not the point. The point was, the Santa Clause I described is clearly fictitious, and it would be just as impossible for me to decide to believe in him as it would be for me to decide to believe in god.

 

[Brian Smith]

Yes they equate their fortune with God loving them more than about half the people on planet earth living in poverty whose very poverty SUPPORTs the relatively small percentage of people in the western world who rely on that impoverishment to be rich! THAT is just how ignore-ant they are. They will cherry pick out of their fave Big Book eg 'God helps those who helps themselves'.

And those people ought to remember the landlord's conversation with Thanatos. It went like this:

Quoth the Landlord:

O, Death. O, Death.
Won't you spare me over 'til another year?
Well, what is this that I can't see
With ice cold hands takin' hold of me

Quoth Thanatos:

Well I am death, none can excel
I'll open the door to heaven or hell
'O, death' someone would pray
'Could you wait to call me another day?'
The children prayed, the preacher preached
Time and mercy is out of your reach
I'll fix your feet 'til you can't walk
I'll lock your jaw 'til you can't talk
I'll close your eyes so you can't see
This very hour, come and go with me
I'm death I come to take the soul
Leave the body and leave it cold
To draw the flesh off of the frame
Dirt and worm both have a claim

Quoth the Landlord:

O, Death. O, Death.Won't you spare me over til another year?
My mother came to my bed
Placed a cold towel upon my head
My head is warm my feet are cold
Death is a-movin' upon my soul
Oh, death how you're treatin' me
You've close my eyes so I can't see
Well you're hurtin' my body
You make me cold
You run my life right outta my soul
Oh death please consider my age
Please don't take me at this stage
My wealth is all at your command
If you will move your icy hand

Quoth Thanatos:

The old, the young, the rich or poor
All alike to me, you know
No wealth, no land, no silver no gold
Nothing satisfies me but your soul

Quoth the Landlord:

O, Death. O, Death.
Won't you spare me over 'til another year?'

Now, this is popular as a song, but I don't think the meaning of it is sinking in with some people. The point of the dirge is that we can't take our wealth with us when we go, wherever we think we are going, and it isn't going to ward off death, either. In the end, we all go to the same place, and we go there naked. Ancient cultures sure gave it their best shot, but do you remember what we found in those old pyramids when we dug our way into them? The same stuff. In fact, the same belongings serve a more noble purpose when they are taken out and put where they always should have been: in a place where the whole world can benefit from them.

 

[ludolfo]

Yes the greedy gets would even have their whole slave entourage murdered with them so they could carry on abusing them in the 'afterlife' so they believed

 

[Brian Smith]

Contradiction where exactly?

Oh, let me try to explain what I've gleaned about Ludolfo's views. He thinks that people who have a generally rationalistic outlook, religious or otherwise, are really not taking in the fullness of reality. He thinks that seeing the world in its true light requires us to let go of purely rational perspectives on things. That is why he is an advocate of using psychedelic drugs. I don't strictly speaking agree with it, but it is a perfectly valid worldview.

 

[ludolfo]

Contradiction where exactly? I see stupid inults without solid evidence and the self-created illusions of a childish mind.

and that and your previous posts to me aren't insult I presume ...? Now I await how you use 'logic' to 'prove' they aren't................?

 

[ludolfo]

Oh, let me try to explain what I've gleaned about Ludolfo's views. He thinks that people who have a generally rationalistic outlook, religious or otherwise, are really not taking in the fullness of reality. He thinks that seeing the world in its true light requires us to let go of purely rational perspectives on things. That is why he is an advocate of using psychedelic drugs. I don't strictly speaking agree with it, but it is a perfectly valid worldview.

Yes, I shared a story about offering magic mushrooms to a friend, and you jump in making insinuations which are not welcome. Attacking people for the rights to explore their consciousness with psychedelic vegetation and substances is as bad as attacking people because of their sexual love and sexuality with the same sex.
I strongly agree with this:

We have had a mind-programming exercising, thats called "the war on drugs" for the last 40 years, which has been designed to create an internal enemy in our societies and convince people that there are these evil, wicked groups who are doing these terrible, sinful things smoking these drugs and doing this and that. A very dark image has been created around this and people get very upset irrationally about this whole issue. And actually what's been forgotten in all of this, is that when the state sends us to prison for essentially exploring our own consciousness. This is an grotesque abuse of human rights. It's a fundamental wrong if I as an adult am not sovereign over my own consciousness then I'm absolutely not sovereign over anything. I can't claim any kind of freedom at all and what has happen over the last 40 or 50 years under the disguise of the war on drugs, is that we have been persuaded to hand over the keys of our consciousness to the state. The most precious, the most intimate, the most sapient part of ourselves, the state now has the key and Furthermore! They have persuaded us that thats in our interests. This is a very dangerous situation.
Graham Hancock (Joe Rogan Podcast - 142, September 25 2011)

 

[Brian Smith]

Yes, I shared a story about offering magic mushrooms to a friend, and you jump in making insinuations which are not welcome. Attacking people for the rights to explore their consciousness with psychedelic vegetation and substances is as bad as attacking people because of their sexual love and sexuality with the same sex.

Depends. I would be willing to try LSD, given the opportunity. However, something wacky like PCP? Well, the way I look at it, I could shoot myself up with battery acid to see what happens. That doesn't mean I'm going to do so, and I would look at anyone who talked about doing it and say, "do wat you wan, senor, but I think you crazy." Same goes for crystal meth, crack, and so on. But LSD just sounds interesting.

 

[ludolfo]

Actually there is lots of research ancient and modern that shows how when taken with respect psychedelics can help you stop destructive habits with drugs including alcohol (it is quite amusing how not many people associate booze with being a drug), etc. This is because they reveal parts of yourself and nature that usually your not aware of, and this can be deeply healing.