On-Topic Operation Zeus - Greek Stop and Frisk... to a new level...

[JayHawk]

Exactly right. And exactly why it is a risk to put blind trust in the officials of one's own country.

Ahh but if you refer to other threads and other matters, my trust is not blind, it is well informed as a part of the process used.

 

[kallipolis]

Good to see the voters in Greece are just like in the US where they vote on pure emotion instead of well researched policy positions. What exactly did people think would happen when they voted in people with policy positions like that? Guess we're not that different after all. Maybe tomorrow we'll get some leaked information on the surveillance efforts of the Greek government.

More sour grapes....clearly not of Greek origin.

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Exactly right. And exactly why it is a risk to put blind trust in the officials of one's own country.

Bravo, mon ami

 

[tigerfan482]

More sour grapes....clearly not of Greek origin.

Nope. Just more recognition of reality. I don't need to be of Greek origin to see how silly it is to vote a politician or group of politicians in simply because you want to get back at some other politician. Things like this are what happens when you do that. Let's hope after those of Greek origin are done having their temper tantrum, they can vote based on supported policy and get people back in that won't make decisions such as this.

 

[bankside]

Tigerfan, you forget that voters may not have a choice of credible policy options when conventional parties don't offer them.

In those circumstances, rational voters continue to vote, but the political message they communicate with their vote must necessarily be different. That's why I'm so keen to see another party/coalition, like Syriza, propose something reasonable. But if voters are not given that choice, there is no undue emotion in their choice.

In short, a protest vote is neither emotional nor irrational.

 

[tigerfan482]

Tigerfan, you forget that voters may not have a choice of credible policy options when conventional parties don't offer them.

In those circumstances, rational voters continue to vote, but the political message they communicate with their vote must necessarily be different. That's why I'm so keen to see another party/coalition, like Syriza, propose something reasonable. But if voters are not given that choice, there is no undue emotion in their choice.

In short, a protest vote is neither emotional nor irrational.

Either the vote is emotional and irrational or the response to the policy that results from the vote is. To vote a party in, not paying attention to their policy, and then acting surprised when their policy gets put into place is not a rational behavior. And I have to believe that there were alternatives to the Neo-Nazi party who a protest vote could be placed in support of. Besides, doesn't Greece have a "none of the above" option to record a vote but for no one? Couldn't that be used as a protest vote instead, so you don't actually wind up with bad policy makers?

 

[kallipolis]

Nope. Just more recognition of reality. I don't need to be of Greek origin to see how silly it is to vote a politician or group of politicians in simply because you want to get back at some other politician. Things like this are what happens when you do that. Let's hope after those of Greek origin are done having their temper tantrum, they can vote based on supported policy and get people back in that won't make decisions such as this.

Punishment for those who abused the democratic system often reveals itself, in many countries when the electorate votes for protest parties rather than the policies of those parties ensuring, that parliament represents several parties rather than being dominated by two political parties diluting the power of those who spent years stealing from the public treasury.

 

[kallipolis]

Either the vote is emotional and irrational or the response to the policy that results from the vote is. To vote a party in, not paying attention to their policy, and then acting surprised when their policy gets put into place is not a rational behavior. And I have to believe that there were alternatives to the Neo-Nazi party who a protest vote could be placed in support of. Besides, doesn't Greece have a "none of the above" option to record a vote but for no one? Couldn't that be used as a protest vote instead, so you don't actually wind up with bad policy makers?

Voting for fringe parties is a rational response by the electorate punishing the two centre parties for their criminal behaviour reaching back thirty years ensuring that the dominance of those parties is eliminated ....and also enabling the other parties (those in opposition) to keep a tighter rein on the day, to day legislative activities of the two centre parties now governing in coalition.

 

[kallipolis]

Here's a three minute clip from an interview being broadcast by the BBC today with the Greek minister responsible for the police discussing the very topic under review on this thread including references to Golden Dawn:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23202684

 

[tigerfan482]

Voting for fringe parties is a rational response by the electorate punishing the two centre parties for their criminal behaviour reaching back thirty years ensuring that the dominance of those parties is eliminated ....and also enabling the other parties (those in opposition) to keep a tighter rein on the day, to day legislative activities of the two centre parties now governing in coalition.

Well, as evidenced by this thread alone, they voted for discriminatory practices and they got discriminatory practices. I noticed today that Greece has secured yet another bailout for their economy. I'm guessing all of this "I'll show you" politics isn't really doing much to help the country, but as long as you can show them who's boss, it doesn't matter right?

 

[pat grimshaw]

Well, as evidenced by this thread alone, they voted for discriminatory practices and they got discriminatory practices. ....

They people of Greece voted for discriminatory practices so they could discriminate between taxpayers and non-taxpayers; between illegal people demanding free food and shelter and non-illegal people demanding free food and shelter.

 

[bankside]

Either the vote is emotional and irrational or the response to the policy that results from the vote is. To vote a party in, not paying attention to their policy, and then acting surprised when their policy gets put into place is not a rational behavior. And I have to believe that there were alternatives to the Neo-Nazi party who a protest vote could be placed in support of. Besides, doesn't Greece have a "none of the above" option to record a vote but for no one? Couldn't that be used as a protest vote instead, so you don't actually wind up with bad policy makers?

As kallipolis has contextualised it, what has occurred in Greece is the very definition of a protest vote.

 

[tigerfan482]

They people of Greece voted for discriminatory practices so they could discriminate between taxpayers and non-taxpayers; between illegal people demanding free food and shelter and non-illegal people demanding free food and shelter.

I'm sorry. I was under the impression they had voted for these people simply as a protest to the people still in power. But hey, if they want to vote in people who associate themselves with a Neo-Nazi movement and like to go around asking people for their papers and using that as a basis for throwing them in camps and committing acts of violence against them, then that's the country they want. I guess there's nothing wrong with being the first country to try something like that. Oh wait a minute....

 

[tigerfan482]

As kallipolis has contextualised it, what has occurred in Greece is the very definition of a protest vote.

Actually, the whole purpose of a "None of the Above" vote is to register a protest vote. Voting in an extreme party just to communicate the idea that you're unhappy with the current parties is like saying you hate the idea of spying on citizens so you're going to vote for Communist party representatives to teach a lesson to those currently in power.

 

[kallipolis]

Actually, the whole purpose of a "None of the Above" vote is to register a protest vote. Voting in an extreme party just to communicate the idea that you're unhappy with the current parties is like saying you hate the idea of spying on citizens so you're going to vote for Communist party representatives to teach a lesson to those currently in power.

Clearly you prefer not to understand how a parliamentary democracy functions.

 

[bankside]

Actually, the whole purpose of a "None of the Above" vote is to register a protest vote. Voting in an extreme party just to communicate the idea that you're unhappy with the current parties is like saying you hate the idea of spying on citizens so you're going to vote for Communist party representatives to teach a lesson to those currently in power.

That wouldn't be a protest vote because it wouldn't result in any change of government policy.

A protest vote is intended to nominally support a change in government policy, even if the change were bizarre or surreal. A protest vote is cast for a fringe party with confidence that the policy will never come to pass, and it serves as a signal to the main parties of just how many votes are up for grabs if they improve their policy.

Anyway, the sort of protest you are thinking of does exist in some jurisdictions, including, for example, Canada. Voters are enabled by the Elections Act to "refuse" a ballot on the grounds that none of the candidates is suitable, and refusals are reported in the results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refused_ballot

But the other kind of protest vote exists in every electoral system on the planet as people review their choice of candidates, and it is not a function of electoral law, but of human electoral behaviour.

Here is some reporting on the phenomenon.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/business/global/09iht-inside09.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[bankside]

Clearly you prefer not to understand how a parliamentary democracy functions.

Now that you mention the form of government, it makes me think…and it occurs to me that we live in multiparty democracies where these phenomena are described in our classrooms, in our newscasts, in election night coverage in the media. But I forget that some of our readers live in a country with binary two-party politics, and that structure subsumes this kind of detail.

Out of mind though it may be, I still think the protest vote exists in the US, for example.

Ross Perot received millions of votes, not just from people who supported his policies, but from millions who didn't care about the content of his policies at all, but could not bring themselves to vote for either of the conventional parties. These protest voters were truly indifferent to what Perot brought to the table apart from the ability to wield him as a stick with which to bash the two entrenched parties.

 

[kallipolis]

Now that you mention the form of government, it makes me think…and it occurs to me that we live in multiparty democracies where these phenomena are described in our classrooms, in our newscasts, in election night coverage in the media. But I forget that some of our readers live in a country with binary two-party politics, and that structure subsumes this kind of detail.

Out of mind though it may be, I still think the protest vote exists in the US, for example.

Ross Perot received millions of votes, not just from people who supported his policies, but from millions who didn't care about the content of his policies at all, but could not bring themselves to vote for either of the conventional parties. These protest voters were truly indifferent to what Perot brought to the table apart from the ability to wield him as a stick with which to bash the two entrenched parties.

Noteworthy and highly relevant to the debate taking place in Greece today with fringe parties on the far left, and the far right using their sticks to wield power that would not have been dreamt of five years ago in a Greece that spent far too long depending on the populist measures of our two centre parties.....but as the economic crisis mends itself I am also certain that the two extremist parties currently drunk with power will gradually fade into insignificance.

 

[tigerfan482]

That wouldn't be a protest vote because it wouldn't result in any change of government policy.

A protest vote is intended to nominally support a change in government policy, even if the change were bizarre or surreal. A protest vote is cast for a fringe party with confidence that the policy will never come to pass, and it serves as a signal to the main parties of just how many votes are up for grabs if they improve their policy.

Anyway, the sort of protest you are thinking of does exist in some jurisdictions, including, for example, Canada. Voters are enabled by the Elections Act to "refuse" a ballot on the grounds that none of the candidates is suitable, and refusals are reported in the results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refused_ballot

But the other kind of protest vote exists in every electoral system on the planet as people review their choice of candidates, and it is not a function of electoral law, but of human electoral behaviour.

Here is some reporting on the phenomenon.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/business/global/09iht-inside09.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So let's recap. You are unhappy with the current politicians. You find a fringe party whose ideas you don't agree with, but who is merely someone different. You know that this person or persons getting elected would result, as in any election, legitimacy being given to their platform and power being given to the representatives of that platform. You place the vote thinking to yourself there is no way these policies will come to pass. They get elected and their policies come to pass. You are now upset that their policies came to pass. That is as illogical as it gets.

It's a classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. And what has come of it? Greece has received multiple bailouts, they're driving a tourism industry away (first with their daily street protests and now with roving bands of paper checkers), and they have a portion of their elected government that has a platform of pretty extreme views.

The idea of protest votes is really ineffective. You mention Perot, but what did all of the votes he received do to reform the two party system and change the platform of the other two parties? Nothing. And then you have situations like this in Greece where they elect in extreme candidates who institute (or at least let happen) extreme practices that do more damage than good so that eventually, the people will just vote right back in the more moderate parties and will be right where they left off. The best form of protest vote is to vote in a candidate who is someone different AND has a platform you agree with. That is the logical vote. Anything else is, as I said before, illogical and/or emotional.

 

[kallipolis]

Well, as evidenced by this thread alone, they voted for discriminatory practices and they got discriminatory practices. I noticed today that Greece has secured yet another bailout for their economy. I'm guessing all of this "I'll show you" politics isn't really doing much to help the country, but as long as you can show them who's boss, it doesn't matter right?

Discriminatory behaviour occurs in any society with Greece no exception.

 

[tigerfan482]

Discriminatory behaviour occurs in any society with Greece no exception.

And it definitely happens when you vote for parties with those behaviors as their platforms.