Our Schools or our System... WHY

[Kulindahr]

Okay but what do those trading studies show?
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Some measurable average gender difference? Probably nobody (no scientist) would argue with that. Some gender difference based on biology? Probably no argument there either.

But totally different categories? Not very often. There can be a measurable trend, but it still means most people can overlap regardless of maleness or femaleness on any given trait.

That lower chart is badly done -- it looks like it's saying that there are risk-averse and risk-seeking traders who are outside the sets of either men or women....

 

[bankside]

That lower chart is badly done -- it looks like it's saying that there are risk-averse and risk-seeking traders who are outside the sets of either men or women....

Well - a week's detention for me, then… LOL

I could acknowledge that a venn diagram is not an ideal way to portray the concept i'm getting at, but instead i'll just add that intersexual people should be allowed to invest in the stock market as well.


The point is, unlike JayHawk's argument (and many others), I don't believe there is any good science behind the idea of "the opposite sex."

It's more like "the overlapping sexes" or "the slightly-offset-from-each-other sexes."

You can't untangle people's needs, behaviours, intuitions, actions, based on whether they have penises or vaginas. At least not for most people. Most men and women are different in their anatomy, but completely comparable in their thought processes, strengths, weaknesses. There are outliers for either gender. (Some men for whom there is no comparable woman, and some women for whom there is no comparable man.)

And that means the kind of gender-differentiated education proposed by these theorists would help some boys to excel, and some girls to excel. But it wouldn't necessarily do a damn thing for the majority of people who are in the Great Tangled Middle Ground, and it might actually eject and exclude people. Some boys won't relate to being treated like a stereotype one-size-fits-all prototype boy. Most boys don't need to be shouted at in a loud direct voice in order to understand their lessons. Most girls don't need to have a supportive "feelings check" before they get on with their science class. The ones who do are likely the way they are because of their biology, but in no way is it clear they are the majority or that the entire school age population will easily relate to their learning style.

Isn't there a way to figure out what kind of learning style works for each kid and then just put them in that class?

 

[JayHawk]

Well - a week's detention for me, then… LOL

I could acknowledge that a venn diagram is not an ideal way to portray the concept i'm getting at, but instead i'll just add that intersexual people should be allowed to invest in the stock market as well.


The point is, unlike JayHawk's argument (and many others), I don't believe there is any good science behind the idea of "the opposite sex."

It's more like "the overlapping sexes" or "the slightly-offset-from-each-other sexes."

You can't untangle people's needs, behaviours, intuitions, actions, based on whether they have penises or vaginas. At least not for most people. Most men and women are different in their anatomy, but completely comparable in their thought processes, strengths, weaknesses. There are outliers for either gender. (Some men for whom there is no comparable woman, and some women for whom there is no comparable man.)

And that means the kind of gender-differentiated education proposed by these theorists would help some boys to excel, and some girls to excel. But it wouldn't necessarily do a damn thing for the majority of people who are in the Great Tangled Middle Ground, and it might actually eject and exclude people. Some boys won't relate to being treated like a stereotype one-size-fits-all prototype boy. Most boys don't need to be shouted at in a loud direct voice in order to understand their lessons. Most girls don't need to have a supportive "feelings check" before they get on with their science class. The ones who do are likely the way they are because of their biology, but in no way is it clear they are the majority or that the entire school age population will easily relate to their learning style.

Isn't there a way to figure out what kind of learning style works for each kid and then just put them in that class?

Where do you get this ignorant idea that what is proposed is shouting?

It has to do with Males interacting, NOT I SAY AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, not military shouting.... there see!!! You have made me shout, so apparently you are one of the boys who doesnt get it unless shouted at.....

About males interacting not shouting
About males interacting not shouting
About males interacting not shouting
About males interacting not shouting
About males interacting not shouting
About males interacting not shouting

Write that ten times on the chalk board then clean the erasers.

If the idea isnt worthy then why is it that:

High school graduation is an economic imperative in today’s global economy driven by knowledge and innovation. Mentoring is a positive youth development strategy that supports the goal of reducing the dropout rate by 50 percent over the next five years. Research has shown that mentoring has significant positive effects on two early indicators of high school drop-outs: high levels of absenteeism (Kennelly & Monrad, 2007) and recurring behavior problems (Thurlow, Sinclair & Johnson, 2002). A landmark Public/Private Ventures evaluation of Big Brothers Big Sisters programs showed that students who meet regularly with their mentors are 52 percent less likely than their peers to skip a day of school. An analysis of mentoring program evaluations conducted by Jekielek, Moore and Hair found that youth in mentoring relationships present better attitudes and behaviors at school and are more likely to attend college than their counterparts.

 

[bankside]

The ignorant idea comes from Dr. Sax, the author of that book you're all keen on. He says not only do males have to interact (agreed), but that he has some special theory about how to do it. Apparently it involves keeping the room cold, raising your voice, and moving around a lot. It's all too easy to wind up on Saturday Night Live.

My whole point is just because some kid has a penis does not mean he needs some blowhard teacher catering to stereotypes of maleness to help him learn (either math, or how to be a man).

 

[Kulindahr]

Isn't there a way to figure out what kind of learning style works for each kid and then just put them in that class?

OMG... that would be...

alternative education!


I just have to add this:

 

[JayHawk]

The ignorant idea comes from Dr. Sax, the author of that book you're all keen on. He says not only do males have to interact (agreed), but that he has some special theory about how to do it. Apparently it involves keeping the room cold, raising your voice, and moving around a lot. It's all too easy to wind up on Saturday Night Live.

My whole point is just because some kid has a penis does not mean he needs some blowhard teacher catering to stereotypes of maleness to help him learn (either math, or how to be a man).

Weird I read Boys Adrift and never came across that particular guidance... must be a later theory.

From what I have read he does not encourage yelling simply louder speaking. As boys typically respond to a louder teacher... not a yelling teacher. Similar to boys responding typically better to equations versus word problems ... seems you interject what you feel to be the summation of his ideas by posting a drill sergeant. I find that misguided at best.

Still the main thrust of this was to discuss how we could encourage greater male leadership of younger males. The mentor statistics proves that it works. No yelling, no drill sergeants, just involvement.

 

[bankside]

Or hopefully an earlier one. I haven't read the book. I read it out of a PDF he authored on his site. Hopefully the book comes later and is maybe more well-developed.

Anyhow I don't even disagree that it will work better for some boys. But it's not because "boys are like that." It's because those boys are like that. If you taught all boys the way Sax suggests, lots of them would tune out, because although they are completely male, there is more than one mindset, learning style, to being male.

That's really the only hill I'll die on here. I totally agree about even just having the presence of males in the school system. If a kid has even one male teacher by the time he's in Junior High, he's in a lucky minority. And all that teaches him, implicitly, is that educated people are all female.

 

[JayHawk]

well, I will have to admit, I haven't studied his works.

Still the compelling storyline I drew from his book was that males need male leadership to have an example of what to be. I read it just after Iron John so perhaps I was already in a train of thought.

 

[Kulindahr]

Or hopefully an earlier one. I haven't read the book. I read it out of a PDF he authored on his site. Hopefully the book comes later and is maybe more well-developed.

Anyhow I don't even disagree that it will work better for some boys. But it's not because "boys are like that." It's because those boys are like that. If you taught all boys the way Sax suggests, lots of them would tune out, because although they are completely male, there is more than one mindset, learning style, to being male.

That's really the only hill I'll die on here. I totally agree about even just having the presence of males in the school system. If a kid has even one male teacher by the time he's in Junior High, he's in a lucky minority. And all that teaches him, implicitly, is that educated people are all female.

Somehow I doubt that style would have helped Bill Gates in the least. In fact, as far as I judge, it's part of the "factory" approach to education we've relied on since (even before) Otto von Bismarck decided that schools should be instruments for turning out obedient and productive citizens/subjects. We'd do far better to go, as in the TED talk I posted, to get out of that entirely, and far more into individualized approaches. If that ends us up with some small classes of boys who thrive in a regimented, authoritarian sort of atmosphere... well, don't be surprised if a good chunk of girls fit into the same space.


BTW, I observed at OSU that one of the most effective professors for building male self-image was the head ballroom dance instructor -- she had a knack for imparting confidence and assertiveness that beats about anything I've seen elsewhere.

 

[JayHawk]

Kulio it is true that MOST self made men have run away from organized education like the brain washing it is....

Lip on Shameless sums it up nicely....

Skip to 1.20 if you dont want the feed story....

 

[maxpowr9]

^That's where most public schools do fail. Public schools don't teach critical thinking anymore and it's quite embarrassing. They teach to an exam instead. I would say my college was split 60:40 publicly to privately educated and it was most of the public school children that floundered throughout college because most of them fail at "application" of theories. They know how to get from A to C but skip over the 'B' between the two. Without understanding 'B' you can't even comprehend why 'C' exists.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kulio it is true that MOST self made men have run away from organized education like the brain washing it is....

Lip on Shameless sums it up nicely....

Skip to 1.20 if you dont want the feed story....

Reminds me of the honors class I took in problem solving. We were assigned the theme of "Form and Function" for a paper, and one of the guys made bold to argue the absolute foolishness of having problem solving as an honors class. It set off a major debate among the panel of professors leading the class, mostly because it offended two of the five -- I guess they took it personally. But it fits; he was arguing basically that, that most students get taught to tweak existing approaches, not to really tackle things with creativity... and since everyone in every field has to deal with solving problems, that ought to be a foundational course at the start, not one over halfway through to a degree.