"Palin is Hillary's Gift to Obama"

[MystikWizard]

Since Obama's and Hillary's agendas on all issues are about 95% identical, what exactly is Obama supposed to do to "Earn" someone's vote? If you supported Hillary then it seems logical to support Obama, that is if you are voting on issues. If you are not voting on issues then what exactly do you expect Obama to do in order to "Earn" your vote? I'm very curious about this. Many people have thrown that phrase around ("Earn my vote"). You can't expect someone to "earn your vote" when no matter what this man does, you'll always belittle him. So spare us in saying that Obama has to "earn votes". It's silly, and please don't refer to this group of hillary supporters who do not support Obama as "democrats". Party affiliations are made on the basis of Issues. Therefore if you don't support Obama and his Clear Democratic agenda when compared to McCain, then you are not a democrat (leftist, moderate, reagan, etc). Not sure what you are, but not a democrat. So, if you don't mind, lets stay out of the way of progress, and let the "Real Democrats" help Obama become our next President of the United States.
Thanks,

Very well said, MLSFreak.

It is clear that these are not "Issues" voters who are holding out their vote for Senator Obama. And therefore, these voters should not even be classified as "Democrats", and nor should they even be labeled as Hillary supporters. Because it is obvious that they did not support Hillary because of her issues that she believed in.

I wonder if these particular voters are proud of the fact that they don't vote based on Issues?

 

[JOUPER]

Very well said, MLSFreak.

It is clear that these are not "Issues" voters who are holding out their vote for Senator Obama. And therefore, these voters should not even be classified as "Democrats", and nor should they even be labeled as Hillary supporters. Because it is obvious that they did not support Hillary because of her issues that she believed in.

I wonder if these particular voters are proud of the fact that they don't vote based on Issues?

I'am no longer a registered Democrat or a Hillary Clinton supporter,I'am a Republican and a John McCain/Sarah Palin supporter and I will work my heart out to put him in the White House!

 

[MystikWizard]

I'am no longer a registered Democrat or a Hillary Clinton supporter,I'am a Republican and a John McCain/Sarah Palin supporter and I will work my heart out to put him in the White House!

Like I said. You are not an "Issues" voter, Jouper. You are a Personalities, American-Idol style voter.

BTW, are you going to answer ICO's invitation and post your reasons for supporting John McCain in his thread? He has only asked you 3 or 4 times now.

 

[JOUPER]

Like I said. You are not an "Issues" voter, Jouper. You are a Personalities, American-Idol style voter.

BTW, are you going to answer ICO's invitation and post your reasons for supporting John McCain in his thread? He has only asked you 3 or 4 times now.

Anything that I or anyone would say in favor of Senator McCain you and the other Obama supporters would mock and degrade so why even bother?You support Obama,I will support McCain and may the best man win! No hard feelings here.

 

[MystikWizard]

Anything that I or anyone would say in favor of Senator McCain you and the other Obama supporters would mock and degrade so why even bother?You support Obama,I will support McCain and may the best man win! No hard feelings here.

That is nothing more than a cop-out, and you know it.

And if you believe so strongly in McCain, and there are people that question your reasoning ... then you won't have any problem defending your line of thought since you believe so strongly in McCain, right?

You are a Personalities Voter, Jouper. Nothing more. No hard feelings, either. You are simply what you are.

 

[lancelva]

Hillary Clinton has done more for the nominee than any other candidate in similar situations. She did not take the fight to the convention--like Teddy Kennedy against Carter in 1980 or Reagan against Ford in 1976. She is actively campaigning on behalf of the Democratic ticket and has done everything asked of her.

The responsibility of winning or losing this election rests with Obama and his campaign. They want the nomination, they received the nomination, now they are going to have to do the work that comes along with that. Trying to blame Senator Clinton's supporters for what's happening in the polls isn't how you win elections.

 

[NickCole]

Nick, it is almost impossible to rationalize with irrational people.

That's true.

Like I said above, I wanted to gain better insight into why someone who supported Hillary is deciding to abandon their Democratic principles to vote for McCain, and fully support ICO creating that thread so anyone who was jumping ship could better define their reasons for doing so. That way, we can get a better understanding of their point of view.

However, NOT ONE person is willing to do it on here. Not one. That is showing me that these are not "Issues" voters we are looking at. Rather, it is "Personality" voters, who treat Presidential elections like the Finals to American Idol.

You and ICO and some other Obama supporters demonstrate no interest in insight, you mock and denigrate in tag-team fashion. You're welcome to do that, but nobody's going to be interested in posting on a thread like that.

 

[MystikWizard]

You and ICO and some other Obama supporters demonstrate no interest in insight, you mock and denigrate in tag-team fashion. You're welcome to do that, but nobody's going to be interested in posting on a thread like that.

If someone truly supports John McCain, then they should have no problem outlining their reasons why, and defending those reasons, since they "truly" believe in them and John McCain.

Tell the truth, Nick. That is nothing more than a cop-out.

If someone like Jouper is doing this, and I know you are contemplating doing so as well ... then you will have no problem telling the group what policies of McCain's you endorse, how they are better than Obama's, and how McCain's policies are more similar to Hillary Clinton's policies, than Barack Obama's.

Show the Forum that you are Issue Voters, rather than Personality Voters ... unless Issues really don't mean that much to any of you, in which case I am just as intrigued as to why you are even voting if that is the case.

 

[NickCole]

If someone truly supports John McCain, then they should have no problem outlining their reasons why, and defending those reasons, since they "truly" believe in them and John McCain.

It's not up to you to decide for others what they do and do not want to do, their reasons for it and whether or not their reasons are valid.

Some have tried to explain to you and ICO why nobody will post in that thread and your response is to dismiss the explanation or denigrate the response. Which only proves the explanation is valid.

 

[MystikWizard]

Some have tried to explain to you and ICO why nobody will post in that thread and your response is to dismiss the explanation or denigrate the response. Which only proves the explanation is valid.

No, actually what it proves is my point. That none of you are Issue Voters, but rather Personality, American Idol style Voters. Otherwise, you would have nothing to hide and like I said, would have no problem defending your reasons.

Logic says that if you support Clinton, then you should support Obama over McCain as Obama and Clinton's policies are essentially 95% similar to one another. That isn't happening with some of you, and I am genuinely curious as to why ... if you truly vote based on Issues. You just admitted above that there are irrational voters out there. Who do you think those irrational voters are, at this point in time?

Perhaps voting for High School Prom Court might be more in-line with this form of voter, rather than a Presidential Election.

When I start hearing people like you and Jouper say ..

"I support John McCain because of X, Y, and Z Policies" and by doing so, raise the discourse level on this Forum all-around, I will then respect your decision for doing so.

I would love to see all of us challenge ourselves and start elevating our posts to get more substance into them so we can discuss policies, rather than have our own American Idol debate on JUB.

 

[MrWright]

I will agree that Clinton would have likely picked Obama, and we would be seeing the exact same scenario you described.

I recognize Obama's message/theme as Change from the "Politics of Old", however in executing this theme, he severely underestimated how many people did not necessarily want to depart from the Politics of Old.

I respect him for going with principle, but tactically, he should have selected Clinton and appeased her supporters. In the end, I think his supporters would have griped about it, but would have went along with it.

I also don't know how much the attack ads from the Republicans would have actually resonated even with these 2 on the same ticket.

Most of his Obama's own supporters who I see online away from JUB realize that it was a tactically unwise decision not to select Rodham and already realize how much it has hurt him, amongst her core. I don't respect what her supporters are doing, as you would have unquestionably had the support from the Obama camp if she was the nominee, but to alleviate this mess, he should have bit the bullet and pandered to them.

I think this is were he failed a long time ago and it only recently caught up. A message of change is not just a phrase to throw around as Obama has done. He's brought up some policy issues recently but during all of the primaries his argument that Washington needs to change without outlining a path to change was his failing. It was a bunch of empty talk and he's lost a lot of supporters along with most of his momentum because he failed to fill in the emptiness quick enough. By the time Hillary stepped down her argument that it was just words was clearly visible and he hasn't recovered. He's seen now by many as inexperienced, ineffective, and arrogant (this one for his nose up to Rodham). He caused this and we can only hope things change or we'll be seeing exactly what Iman forecasted...who is VERY right.

 

[chance1]

We Obama "lovers" want people to listen to what HE has to say instead of the steady litany of lies and manufactured outrage coming from your side, chance.

In post after tedious post, you belittle Senator Obama for being inspirational. Since when is that a bad thing? Your buddy Duhbya (yeah, yeah...I know. You're a "Democrat." ) has already convinced a tragically large number of Americans that intelligence is elitist and un-patriotic. And here you are, espousing the much the same attitude, demeaning us Jubbers who aren't supporting the major presidential candidate who thinks you and I are second-class citizens, undeserving of equal rights. You know, the guy who thinks we're not good enough to be adoptive parents. Rather, we're supporting the guy who wants to expand our rights.

And you wonder why I've been so snarky with you?
(srry i uzd rl wrdz)

i get it

when BO is doing great it's cuz he's great

when he's strugglin its becuz the "other" side is .........

uh huh

try taking some responsibility

YOU and BO

its good for ya too

and i hardly think he is inspirational ............ NOW

he was or maybe i was gullible

what's ur excuse ?

i love that BO is intelligent - he is

but i hate the elitism - and he shows it - his peeps show it - his supporters show it - everytime they look down their noses at regular folks - and they do

u dont' support obama? what is wrong with u ? they're shocked

wow

as for being snarky with me - be my guest - i can deal

just be honest about it

is all i ask

 

[NickCole]

I don't understand why you guys are argueing over this shit..

Because the Democratic Party remains divided and Obama is not a leader who can unite a Party, much less a nation. Maybe with some more experience he might have evolved into such a leader but so far he is not.

Obama, as the winner of the primary, as the nominee, as the de facto leader of the Democratic Party, has the responsibility of uniting the Party. Obama enjoys the perks of being the leader of the Democratic Party but he does not accept the responsibility of uniting it.

 

[MystikWizard]

Because the Democratic Party remains divided and Obama is not a leader who can unite a Party, much less a nation. Maybe with some more experience he might have evolved into such a leader but so far he is not.

Obama, as the winner of the primary, as the nominee, as the de facto leader of the Democratic Party, has the responsibility of uniting the Party. Obama enjoys the perks of being the leader of the Democratic Party but he does not accept the responsibility of uniting it.

It's hard to unite people, such as yourself, who don't want to be united in the first place.

 

[NickCole]

It's hard to unite people, such as yourself, who don't want to be united in the first place.

Awww. Is it hard?

That's a big problem with Obama -- too much has come too easily. He expects it to be easy, has no tools for doing the hard work. As I said from the beginning, people who've had to struggle against unexpected adversity, met and prevailed over hard challenges, may not always come across as "likable" as those who've had it easy, but there is substantive value to lessons learned from experience. Learning on the job may be fine for some jobs but a President and Commander in Chief who has to be defended with, "but it's hard," is not ready.

 

[chance1]

Silly reason to not vote for him plain and simple. Check out his POLICIES!! I am going to shout the word policies until I have no voice apparently.

Elitism. That is your reason? That's like saying you don't like Paris Hilton because she can't walk straight in heels.... am I the crazy one here?

I hate how Obama interrupts people when they are speaking. THAT bothers me big time but you know what bugs me more? McCain's lies and Palin's lies and both of their scary ideals and POLICIES.

Personality or country? Personality or security? Personality or change? Personality or policies? Palin/McCain or FACTS?

Not inspirational? I suppose McCain is? His speeches are top notch. I ALSO wanna give bottled hot water to dehydrated babies. And I want to read the qualifications of my VP from a teleprompter while I then go on to praise her and assure you she is the best choice. Oh, and I want to smile awkwardly after every "joke" I tell making the audience at home frown and hear crickets in their head.

Obama inspires like nothing I have seen in my time, but I am also not an obama zombie follower because he can make his voice boom at the right moment. Or because he expresses my own feelings/thoughts. I know his policies and his characters and I feel deep down he deserves a CHANCE over McBush.

Oh and I'll take some responsibility Obama is running a shitty campaign and the media is not helping him by trashing Palin. He is playing it too safe and he's stubbornly doing it his way and not recognizing that he needs to shake things up before he splits up the Dems for good. Imo.

The above however does not make me undecided or give Mcfuckface my vote. Why? I agree with Obama's policies in comparison to McCain.

]

elitism is not the reason i am not pulling the lever for him

it is a common disease by some dems and many libs - the idea that big city types know better - it is in fact an us vs. them thingy that hurts - it hurts just about every election

sure the repubs exploit it - why? much like why a dog licks its balls - cuz it can

but w/o the dums help, they would not be able to do it

oreilly in talking to BO called it - he pandered to dailykos, moveon, etc - big mistake - he gives them power by doing that

then he gets caught on tape talking about guns/religion/clinging, etc.

he's not a bad guy - and would prob be a decent pres

anyway - elitism is just a very bad play for the dums - and they're doing it again - prob can't help themselves

policies? is where it's at
in addition to the MAN himself (in this case - with no hills) - leadership

on both fronts give me JMac anyday

i believe he will be more fiscally responsible
i believe he will be a MUCH better commander in chief
i think he will help us reduce our indendence on foreign oil (huge)
i think he will be reasonable enough to work with others to get things done - not an easy task in washington - he has PROVEN that he can/will do that

ur right - elitism is not a reason to pull/not pull a lever

never said it was

McCain is NOT a liar - saying so does not make it so

and as for inspiration ............ he did inspire me - long time ago - then like a great cd mix ............ the songs started playing again and again - he's not so diff acutally

and i think that inspiration has been replaced by perspiration as he is sweating a layup election bigtime now

shoulda been a blowout instead a nailbiter

and he has only himself to blame

not biden
not the media
not ..................... anyone else

i agree with u he is playing it too safe - how do u change now? he began vs. hills as this "above it all" type - it was great - not gonna get in the mud - so now he's gotta get in the mud? it is a tough spot

seriously he could do the job with great help from more senior and moderate dems and i imagine he will if he wins - i certainly hope so - cuz i ain't moving to france

 

[chance1]

Responsibility?

How's about YOU take responsibility for supporting a candidate who shamelessly lies and panders in order to bolster his support?

Just more of the same tedious crap from you, chance.

Some things never change.

P.S.: It's called "punctuation."

P.P.S.: Whatever happened to "JMac?" I totally loved it when you called him "JMac." Totally.

im very comfy supporting mccain

i don't expect perfection

i don't expect to agree with everything

and ur right - JMac is a good one - will be making a comeback

 

[MystikWizard]

Awww. Is it hard?

That's a big problem with Obama -- too much has come too easily. He expects it to be easy, has no tools for doing the hard work. As I said from the beginning, people who've had to struggle against unexpected adversity, met and prevailed over hard challenges, may not always come across as "likable" as those who've had it easy, but there is substantive value to lessons learned from experience. Learning on the job may be fine for some jobs but a President and Commander in Chief who has to be defended with, "but it's hard," is not ready.

I've had one of my posts removed responding to this post, so I am going to try again ....

We've already established that there are some voters on this Forum who do not vote based on the Issues.

If these voters were truly Issues voter, none of this "unifying" talk would even be coming into play, because they would actually be voting "solely on the issues". They would be examining Obama's policies and comparing them to McCain's policies. It's plain and simple. Either you support McCain's political views. Or you support Obama's political views.

Some of these voters can't seem to decide, so I think they pretty much prove that they are not an Issues voter, but rather a Personalities, American-Idol style voter. This is a trait not un-common to the TV Generation, where as the Internet Generation does seem to bypass that type of crap and vote based on policy.

I would never expect someone to pander to me, which is what you are looking for, because I take a slightly more mature approach to politics. Not only that, but I find pandering to be insulting. Just like I found the idea of a Gas Tax Holiday to be insulting to my intelligence. Just like I find the idea of McCain publicly declaring that "he knows how to get Bin Laden" to be insulting. By all means, Senator McCain, if you know how to get Bin Laden, please inform President Bush, who has for some reason been too incompetent to find him for only the past 7 years, and tell him how to do it ... as opposed to insulting everyone's intelligence by saying "if you vote for me, I'll go and get him for you." Utterly shameful.

This vote is only going to affect my quality of life, not to mention the quality of lives of our Men and Women serving in our Armed Forces, who you are willing to keep over there for as long as the Republican Party decides, against their wishes, and against the wishes of the Iraqi people, because Heaven forbid, these voters were not pandered to nor pampered.

Like I charged above, there are certain voters on this Forum that don't appear to be looking to be united, anyway.

Either you support Democratic views, or you don't. It's really that simple. If you don't, and if you care more about Personalities than about Issues ... then by all means, vote for McCain. Nobody is going to stop anyone from doing so.

 

[NickCole]

^^Some people are capable of only single-line thought, as in voting only "issues" or only personality or party.

Others are interested in a much broader perspective.

When, as a Democrat, I twice voted for Giuliani for Mayor, my decision was based on a number of elements, only one of which was "issues," and that was true for millions of Democrats in New York City. For example it doesn't matter where a candidate says he stands on issues if there's legitimate concern that he won't do as he says.

Your attempts to define me and my decision making may be perfectly honest in characterizing your view of me but it has nothing to do with the truth of who I am and how I choose which lever to pull on Election Day.

 

[chance1]

Either you support Democratic views, or you don't. It's really that simple. If you don't, and if you care more about Personalities than about Issues ... then by all means, vote for McCain. Nobody is going to stop anyone from doing so.

way too simplistic

and wrong

and i think u might confuse leadership with personality

i think the former is critical to being a good pres, the latter to quote borat "not so much"

as for "democratic" views, that's a pretty broad brush

if u mean democrat political views perhaps

is that what u mean?